A discussion about using AI to grade comic books. 3 3

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:49 PM, CAHokie said:

On 12/26/2023 at 2:07 PM, VintageComics said:

CAHokie addressed cost issues with his experience in the parent industry

I did? Now I’m lost….

It was a dad joke.

I thought maybe your experience with dental had to do with getting braces for your kids or something along those lines, as I paid for all my kid's braces and it wasn't cheap. 

 

[CAHokie]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:51 PM, VintageComics said:

It was a dad joke.

I thought maybe your experience with dental had to do with getting braces for your kids or something along those lines, as I paid for all my kid's braces and it wasn't cheap. 

 

Ahhhhhh…. Teeth guard for grinding but I was very surprised it was by photos and not gel.

[FlyingDonut]

  

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

Thank you for your opinion on the theory. I too would LOVE consistency in grading.

Not sure what theory I'm opining on but sure.

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

What experience do you have in fine robotics?

 None, but fine robotics has nothing to do with this.

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

What experience do you have in imaging? 

A great deal. Hardware exists to do this. Like anything it is expensive for quality, but this is not an AI issue. I've used this one - this is a medium-level non-destructive book scanner. You could do a comic book on here in maybe a minute at 600 DPI. A higher-end one would get much higher DPI at the same resolution.

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

How much do YOU think it would cost to implement a hardware system that could turn pages and image them to grade comic books

I have no idea but this would be essentially a one time expense and you are not creating from whole cloth. It already exists. Many companies do this already. 

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

Do you believe it would be cost efficient enough to implement in 12 months?

Yes.

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

Did you want us to stop discussing these things? 

No, but stop moving the goalposts. Can AI do this? Absolutely. Can it do it in a cost efficient manner quickly? If someone wanted to, sure.

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:22 PM, namisgr said:

Page turning device that's just a wee bit simpler than the work NASA or an endovascular or prenatal surgeon does:

And, to head off any suggestion at the pass, the idea of posting this video is not to suggest that this device could be used as part of an automated comic book grading system.  Instead, the idea is to illustrate how little sophistication and cost would be involved in developing a system sufficiently gentle, reliable, programmable, and cheap to turn pages and partner with an imaging and book positioning system to readily capture all the images required for an algorithm developed by machine learning from the output of professional CGC graders to devise an automated grading system.

I'm certain if I'd posted this in this discussion, I'd have 43 people hitting the laughing emoji and at least 12 notifies to moderation about it including Matt Nelson himself.

But to build on this great discussion in the spirit of cooperation, may I suggest we use this to safely deliver comics between departments?

Finnegan asks very little and does so much! 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[CAHokie]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:08 PM, VintageComics said:

But to build on this great discussion in the spirit of cooperation, may I suggest we use this to safely deliver comics between departments?

That’s not his intended design purpose though.
 

I got lost in this thread a while back so I may have missed the key points. Is it your opinion that we don’t have the tech, either by hardware or software to do it, or it’s just not cost effective? 

[namisgr]

On 12/26/2023 at 2:59 PM, CAHokie said:

Ahhhhhh…. Teeth guard for grinding but I was very surprised it was by photos and not gel.

Sounds like a patient friendly advance. 

But for comic books, very little three dimensional reconstruction is even necessary.  The pages themselves wouldn't require it, just a head on image and a couple taken at slightly non-perpendicular angles, which would pick up any bends, tears, pieces out, dents, soiling, rust, siamese pages, and the like with ease, while also generating a page quality score for each page that could be compiled into a final grade.

The imaging of each exterior and interior cover page would require several angled views in addition to the perpendicular one, and possibly to a stack of multiple perpendicular views acquired at different z-planes, to detect surface impressions, dents, waves, and other imperfections of paper flatness.  It's technology reminiscent of what's been available in microscopy and medical imaging for decades now for deriving three dimensional reconstructions from series of what are essentially two dimensional images.  The photographic and image reconstruction methods are all automated and very fast. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by namisgr

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:04 PM, FlyingDonut said:

On 12/26/2023 at 2:11 PM, VintageComics said:

What experience do you have in imaging? 

A great deal. Hardware exists to do this. Like anything it is expensive for quality, but this is not an AI issue. I've used this one - this is a medium-level non-destructive book scanner. You could do a comic book on here in maybe a minute at 600 DPI. A higher-end one would get much higher DPI at the same resolution.

Amazing how quickly a discussion can progress once everyone chooses to focus on the message rather than the messenger. Nice robot that's 'not a robot'. 

Now we're getting somewhere. 

------------------------------------------------------

I personally don't believe that particular machine can be used safely and effectively. I'm spitballing for problems as someone experienced in mechanical tech and diagnostics to uncover possible impediments and complications:

It's very slow. It takes 10 seconds per page image. That actual machine is probably going to take 300 seconds or 5 minutes to scan the average 32 page comic book - plus covers and 20 minutes for a square bound 64 pager, so very time consuming.

It's still not very gentle looking. How do you adjust the pressure and how deep that angled lense drops down? Is it stopped by pressure from the book once it touches? I'd be very worried about that pressure on open folios. 

You do that to ANY page on a square bound and you're 'effed so useless against anything squarebound.

You do that to ANY page on a brittle book and you're 'effed, so useless against brittle books. 

Do you really want that angled lense pressing every open folio wrap down? Tearing wraps at staples? Cracking brittle pages?

Speed it up and risk increases dramatically. 

So likely useless against ALL comic books, unless you can image the comic efficiently without pressing the folios all the way down. 

And then, after ALL that, you'll still need a manual inspection of the book for areas you can't image. 

------------------------------

As someone who has extensive experience in tech and diagnostics, how reliable would it be?

They'd need multiple machines, but they'd also need backup machines. 

Could it grade, say...10,000's of books a year / per machine? Not at that speed.

Without breaking down or needing service? You'd need backup machines if one went down and needed repair or you'd immediately get a backlog. 

------------------------------

What I can actually see, eliminating ALL of this complexity that we're discussing and everyone is having trouble envisioning, is having pre-graders count and grade the interiors, inspect staples and interior covers for defects, maybe do one interior AI shot for estimating page quality, and then CGC can use AI just to grade the outer covers.

 

Then a finalizer would look at the AI estimate, the pregrader's notes and come up with a finalized grade. 

THAT is how I can see AI being used very soon. 

And this idea is an evolution of this very discussion. I literally just came to that thought as I was typing up this post. 

It's quick, cost effective, easy to implement, efficient and makes grading FAR more accurate. 

I believe THAT is the route CGC will likely go soonest. 

 

The complexity, delicacy, accuracy and cost effectiveness of robots turning pages or machines getting good enough images is where all of this falls apart...in the near future. 

 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:16 PM, CAHokie said:

hat’s not his intended design purpose though.

Neither is namisgr's robot. 

On 12/26/2023 at 3:16 PM, CAHokie said:

I got lost in this thread a while back so I may have missed the key points. Is it your opinion that we don’t have the tech, either by hardware or software to do it, or it’s just not cost effective? 

To get the entire job done, you have to factor in all of it.

The conversation has evolved from "let's use AI to fix the #252 scam" to "how do we use AI to grade comics" and now, in this thread it's evolved into "what else would we need to change to accomodate AI in grading comics".

The software is one complex problem with it's own limitations and obstacles. 

The hardware is another complex problem with it's own limitations and obstacles. 

How to implement the two (and in which combination, because there are many ways to do it) is something that must be addressed. How does the final product look?

And then, cost of all of this has it's own set of problems and limitations. 

Each new factor multiplies the complexity by a factor.

I believe we have the tech to do it on a NASA level enterprise if cost and profitability is not a factor but factoring in cost and profitability changes the entire discussion much like scaling the cost / complexity from doing surgery on a living baby in the womb to simply doing surgery on a textbook on a desk. 

Finally, I don't think MOST people who were calling for AI to solve the grading problem thought through all of these factors, which is obvious from all of the replies. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[shadroch]

A machine that takes six minutes a book does ten books an hour and 240 books in a day. 1680 books in a week.   Does CGC have a grader who can grade 1,000 books a week? Three such machines would be grading close to 4800 books a week.   I've no idea how many books they currently do per week. Does anyone know?

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 3:56 PM, shadroch said:

A machine that takes six minutes a book does ten books an hour and 240 books in a day. 1680 books in a week.   Does CGC have a grader who can grade 1,000 books a week? Three such machines would be grading close to 4800 books a week.   I've no idea how many books they currently do per week. Does anyone know?

I'd say a grader takes at most, 30 second a book on average. Factor in 3 graders at 90 seconds a book, so 1.5 mins a book total and work from there and that would be on the long end IMO. 

If you only have two graders a book then it's even shorter at 60 seconds a book.

Using your math, you'd have a robot grading a book 24 hours a day. Did you stop to think how the books would get in and out of the robot? You'd be paying employees to serve a robot that works slower than the humans. See what I mean about thinking things through. Oy vey!   

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[shadroch]

On 12/26/2023 at 1:56 PM, shadroch said:

A machine that takes six minutes a book does ten books an hour and 240 books in a day. 1680 books in a week.   Does CGC have a grader who can grade 1,000 books a week? Three such machines would be grading close to 4800 books a week.   I've no idea how many books they currently do per week. Does anyone know?

CGC claims they have 45 graders and have graded ten million books in the twenty-two-plus years they've been open.  Six machines could accomplish the same numbers.

[Buzzetta]

Either way, it is coming possibly sooner than certain people profess that they want. 

[wombat]

Guys. You don't understand. Its too complicated. End of story. 

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:07 PM, Buzzetta said:

Either way, it is coming possibly sooner than certain people profess that they want. 

Nobody professed a want. 

The biggest problem with online discussions is when people who choose to make things personal, intentionally twist the discussion to mean the most negative thing they can in order to mischaracterize what someone else said or meant, and that affects everyone in the community.

It's unnecessary and disruptive for everyone and people who care about their community should be speaking out against it rather than stand for it because this is everyone's community. It is, quite literally what you make of it. If you choose or ignore the negativity, it will be negative. If you choose or act on positive actions, it will be positive. The choice is a community effort, and pre 2020 it used to be treated as such. Somehow, after 2020 everyone just became numb to wrongdoing. 

Also, you're welcome. I think CGC will soonest implement something along the lines of what I described a few posts above. 

Edited December 26, 2023 by VintageComics

[CAHokie]

As humans we have made machines to travel the world by land, air,  or sea and to fly to the moon. Sadly though, we reached the limits of our capability when trying to design a machine to handle a comic book. 
 

Edited December 26, 2023 by CAHokie

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:00 PM, CAHokie said:

As humans we have made machines to travel the world by land or sea and to fly to the moon. Sadly though, we reached the limits of our capability when trying to design a machine to handle a comic book. 

You're a horrible human. 

[CAHokie]

Vintage Comics said what….

 

[VintageComics]

On 12/26/2023 at 5:03 PM, CAHokie said:

Vintage Comics said what….

 

So this is what the heartless moderators look like! 

[CAHokie]

Hmmm, which one should I grade next?

[Buzzetta]

On 12/26/2023 at 4:51 PM, VintageComics said:

Nobody professed a want. 

The biggest problem with online discussions is when people who choose to make things personal, intentionally twist the discussion to mean the most negative thing they can in order to mischaracterize what someone else said or meant, and that affects everyone in the community.

It's unnecessary and disruptive for everyone and people who care about their community should be speaking out against it rather than stand for it because this is everyone's community. It is, quite literally what you make of it. If you choose or ignore the negativity, it will be negative. If you choose or act on positive actions, it will be positive. The choice is a community effort, and pre 2020 it used to be treated as such. Somehow, after 2020 everyone just became numb to wrongdoing. 

Also, you're welcome. I think CGC will soonest implement something along the lines of what I described a few posts above. 

What are you even talking about?  All I said was, "Either way, it is coming possibly sooner than certain people profess that they want."  

Pre-2020?  What are you even talking about?  God everything is one thing with you.  What "wrongdoing" are you talking about right here right now?