As a still relatively new "newbie", what exactly does 4.0 or 7.5 mean? 1 1

[Mokiguy]

In previous posts I've mentioned that I also collect Morgan and Peace silver dollars, and I have the same question there as I ask here. And as I've said before, I rarely get a coin graded and as of yet have never gotten a comic graded, so this is purely curiosity on my part, wondering what others think.

In coins it might be expressed on the holder as XF-45 (extremely fine - 45) or MS-63 (mint state - 63), and in comics it's 4.0 (very good) or 7.5 (very fine -), but neither one tells me much of anything, especially why. All you get is a number and perhaps a few words like white pages or cleaned.

So isn't a grade in a way an appraisal? Since it pretty much establishes a value, and even helps raise the value by the very nature of it being appraised. Why is that different than a home inspection or appraisal, or a vehicle inspection and appraisal? It's all spelled out. The oil pan drips, small tear in the passenger seat, tires are mismatched, rust in the left rear quarter panel etc. You know why it was given the grade and value, but coins and comics remain a mystery, and as the curious novice to this hobby that I still am, it makes no sense. The suspicious nature in me thinks that the reason they keep grades mysterious is the same reason attorneys, courts and judges, still use archaic jargon and a 2,000 year old dead language for legal terms. If it was all simple and in plain English, maybe they couldn't charge $300 an hour.

And one last thing ........ I grade my own comics and use this cheat sheet below. And I add this to the back side of every backing board of every comic I own, so if I grade a comic a 5.5, it's because of what those 38 items say about the comic, no mystery, and anyone can agree or disagree, but at least they understand why I graded it as I did. Why don't grading companies do the same?

So as I said at the outset ...... I'm curious how folks in the hobby much longer than me feel about this.

[Jesse-Lee]

MyComicShop has a great page about grading: https://www.mycomicshop.com/help/grading

This part is the most helpful in my opinion:

Quote

From MyComicShop.com:

 

Grading Standards

When reviewing the possible defects a comic may have as shown below for the various grades, please keep in mind that while a single defect may not reduce a comic's grade, that defect if repeated and/or combined with other accumulated defects, may push the grade down by one or more grades.

Near Mint (NM) condition

Near Mint/Mint	NM/M	9.8
Near Mint+	NM+	9.6
Near Mint	NM	9.4
Near Mint-	NM-	9.2

A nearly perfect copy that looks brand new with only a few very minor defects. Acceptable minor defects on a NM copy include: a very small amount of spine stresses, very minor instances of denting (two or three at most), slight corner blunting, and minor (less than 1/8") bends without color breaks.

On the ten-point grading scale, a lower grade like 9.2 will allow these defects in a greater quantity and degree than a higher grade like 9.8, which sometimes may have no discernible defects at all. We do not assign the grades 9.9 and 10.0 to any unslabbed "raw" comics. You will only see these ultra-high grades on comics slabbed by one of the grading services. There is such a small degree of separation between the grades 9.8, 9.9, and 10.0 that even the most experienced comic graders may disagree on which of these three grades to assign to an apparently flawless comic, so the highest grade we will assign to a comic is 9.8.

In some cases it is possible for a comic shipped brand new from the publisher, or purchased new from a comic store's shelves, to already be in less than near mint condition due to the way the comic was produced, shipped, stored, or handled prior to purchase.

Very Fine (VF) condition

Very Fine/Near Mint	VF/NM	9.0
Very Fine+	VF+	8.5
Very Fine	VF	8.0
Very Fine-	VF-	7.5

A VF copy has minor defects, but is in overall excellent condition. Most well-kept modern comics (especially if they have been read) fall into this grade. Acceptable defects on a VF are minor and include: Minor corner wear, a light accumulation of spine stress that may include color-break, a light accumulation of dents, and bends or folds less than 1/4" (note that on a VF copy, some color-break is allowed in a bend/fold).

Fine (FN) condition

Fine/Very Fine	FN/VF	7.0
Fine+	FN+	6.5
Fine	FN	6.0
Fine-	FN-	5.5

A comic in FN condition is considered "above average" but still displays some wear. In general, the eye appeal is somewhat reduced due to either an accumulation of minor defects or one or two moderate defects. Acceptable defects on a FN copy include: Slight spine roll, a moderate accumulation of spine stresses that may break color, a spine split of less than 1/2", minor water spotting or residue (less than the size of a dime), an impacted corner, and moderate foxing.

Very Good (VG) condition

Very Good/Fine	VG/FN	5.0
Very Good+	VG+	4.5
Very Good	VG	4.0
Very Good-	VG-	3.5

A comic in VG condition shows some significant wear, but has not accumulated enough total defects to reduce eye appeal to the point that it is not a desirable copy. A VG copy may have an accumulation of minor defects or one or two major ones. Acceptable defects on a VG copy include: Spine roll, 1/2" to 1" spine splits or other tears, a cover or centerfold that is detached at one staple, discoloration due to oxidation, and a moderate accumulation of water damage or staining.

Good (GD) condition

Good/Very Good	GD/VG	3.0
Good+	GD+	2.5
Good	GD	2.0
Good-	GD-	1.8

A GD copy has major defects, but is still complete and readable. A GD copy will have a significant amount of damage, usually an accumulation of smaller defects punctuated with some major defects. Acceptable defects on a GD copy include: A vertical book-length crease, 1.5"-2" spine split, cover or centerfold completely detached, major tears, heavy discoloration/brittleness due to oxidation, heavy amounts of staining, residue, and water damage.

Fair (FR) condition

Fair/Good	FR/GD	1.5
Fair	FR	1.0

A FR copy will have low eye appeal and will display major damage. A comic book in FR condition may have non-story elements such as coupons, portions of ad pages, or Marvel Value Stamps cut or torn out of the book, but all story and art will be complete. If an entire ad page is missing that would drop the grade to Poor. Types of damage that place a comic in FR range include: A spine split of up to 2/3 the length of the book, a missing back cover provided the front cover is still attached, severe water damage or residue damage, mold, and paper deterioration due to oxidation.

Poor (PR) condition

Poor

PR

0.5

Comic books in PR condition may be missing up to 4 pages (two spreads) of story or ad pages, or have a completely split spine, or display severe damage that affects the readability of the book.

 

[SOTIcollector]

In my 40+ years of collecting, I've never encountered a person or company that had created an exact science out of grading.  Grading follows some generally-accepted guidelines in the industry (see the MyComicShop page noted in prior post), but ultimately it's a subjective assessment based on the presence or absence of defects and deviations from the ideal, at a particular point in time.  Every grading company utilizes their own proprietary standards to assign a grade that generally falls within industry-accepted guidelines and they often provide graders' notes that give a general idea as to why a particular grade was assigned.  Ultimately, each grading company is being paid for an opinion.  What, in their professional opinion, is the grade of the (comic/coin/whatever)?  

I'm sure if they found there was a market for a more fact-based assessment, listing every perceived variation from the ideal, they'd be willing to offer that as a service as well.  Such as service would be very expensive because of the labor involved and other factors.  My guess is that grading companies have determined that there isn't enough demand for such a service that they could make money on it.

[Mokiguy]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:59 AM, SOTIcollector said:

 

I'm sure if they found there was a market for a more fact-based assessment, listing every perceived variation from the ideal, they'd be willing to offer that as a service as well.  Such as service would be very expensive because of the labor involved and other factors.  My guess is that grading companies have determined that there isn't enough demand for such a service that they could make money on it.

I'm not so sure that I could agree with that. First of all, in this computerized digital age that we live in, all those items that a book is graded on (as in my cheat sheet) are only a simple enter key stroke per item and then hit "print" after the last item and your done. Every reason for the grade is spelled out. I am sure that they must have a sheet that they already use as they grade, just not shared with the public. And as to whether or not there would be demand. As I said, it would not involve any extra time or expense other than a sheet of paper and some ink. Ask anyone that has ever had a comic graded if they would like a complete cheat sheet on everything that was graded that would be included with every submission, and I think you would have a 100% yes ............ if they didn't find a way to charge extra.

Edited February 27 by Mokiguy

[marvelmaniac]

https://comics.ha.com/tutorial/comics-grading.s?show=comicdefinitions

or

https://gemstonepub.com/the-overstreet-guide-to-grading-comics-4th-edition/

or

https://shop.collectiblesgroup.com/products/the-official-cgc-guide-to-grading-comics-1st-edition-hardcover

This site's grading standards are outdated, but the glossary is very good if you need definitions on certain defects.

https://www.teako170.com/grade.html

[shadroch]

At live shows, I no longer offer grades, just prices. If the book has a hidden defect, it is noted on a sticky.  I don't get into arguments or discussions about the grade. I will negotiate prices, not  grades. 

[SOTIcollector]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:27 AM, Mokiguy said:

It would not involve any extra time or expense other than a sheet of paper and some ink. Ask anyone that has ever had a comic graded if they would like a complete cheat sheet on everything that was graded that would be included with every submission, and I think you would have a 100% yes ............ if they didn't find a way to charge extra.

I am confident that there would be a significant expense in labor, as well as other expenses.  However, even if that's not the case.  Even if the "only" added expenses are, as you claim: extra ink and paper, the question boils down to "why doesn't a for-profit company spend more for the service they are offering, when spending more won't bring in more revenue?"  At that point, the answer becomes evident.

Edited February 28 by SOTIcollector

[comicginger1789]

On 2/27/2024 at 9:45 AM, Mokiguy said:

So isn't a grade in a way an appraisal? Since it pretty much establishes a value, and even helps raise the value by the very nature of it being appraised. Why is that different than a home inspection or appraisal, or a vehicle inspection and appraisal? It's all spelled out. The oil pan drips, small tear in the passenger seat, tires are mismatched, rust in the left rear quarter panel etc. You know why it was given the grade and value, but coins and comics remain a mystery, and as the curious novice to this hobby that I still am, it makes no sense.

 

It would be nice to know what CGC grading set up looks like. The industry standard for perfection is 9.8. On anything else, there should be some notes. Many times in grades 9.0-9.6 there is not. Again, one would assume all of the "flaws" are on some sort of checklist and the grader just checks off or types it in. I feel that to give a grade on a book that is not 9.8 and not notate this is wrong, so I agree with you there. For many, the reason is not obvious. For guys 15, 20, 30 or more years in the hobby, sure they get the book back, they see the 9.4, they see the couple spine ticks and they get it. But the novice doesn't. Not right away. It is almost like part of the hobby, part of the right of passage is learning grading. And it is a never ending learning curve that for me, sometimes I am spot on, sometimes I am slightly off (which makes sense....I see 8.0, grader see 7.5 that's close enough) but occasionally I still grade a book and am off by 2-3 grades which bothers me. What did I overgrade? Or in some cases, what flaw did I grade too harshly? Until full transparency is given from CGC we will never really know. I guess that is part of the secret sauce. To be fair, none of the grading companies anywhere really divulge their grading formula.

[comicginger1789]

In terms of the initial question, well again part of the hobby is knowing the grades. When you know the grades you can generally know what is wrong. When I see 4.0, I expect lots of spine and edge wear, soft corners, maybe some staining or a loose centrefold but overall a book that someone took some amount of care with. When I see 7.5, I see a nice copy that was probably read but has a couple class that really detract from near perfection, such as a decent corner crease, or a stain on the back. Again its not specific but I can "see" that type of book in my mind when books have that grade because I have collected about 25 years and just feel like I'm familiar with those grades. If I want to know for sure, a front and back photo tells 99% of the story because that is usually where the flaws are. Occasionally a book has to be hit grade wise for an interior flaw but generally those are much less common. Plus such a flaw, if major (like a cut out or scribbles on a page) are usually noted

[shadroch]

Coins used to be on a 1-63 scale. Then it was a 1-66 scale, now it is 1-70 and I'm sure some company will create 71s soon.

[MAR1979]

Difference between 4.0 and 7.5 is tree-fiddy

[MattTheDuck]

I would also just add that "all 4.0s aren't created equal" which is why there's so much "buy the book, not the label" around here.  

[lostboys]

On 2/27/2024 at 10:42 AM, Jesse-Lee said:

MyComicShop has a great page about grading: https://www.mycomicshop.com/help/grading

This part is the most helpful in my opinion:

 

That chart says 9.4s shouldnt have color breaking spine stress lines.

 

 

I have a CGC 9.8 with a color break ...and more than a few CGC 9.6s and 9.4s with multiple color breaks.

 

[shadroch]

On 2/28/2024 at 8:56 AM, lostboys said:

That chart says 9.4s shouldnt have color breaking spine stress lines.

 

 

I have a CGC 9.8 with a color break ...and more than a few CGC 9.6s and 9.4s with multiple color breaks.

 

You have Overstreet 9.2s that someone at CGC stuck in a slab and overgraded.   If someone offers you a book with a 9.8 label that has color breaks, hopefully, you'll pass on the book.  Unless what you are chasing are pretty labels.

Edited February 28 by shadroch