Wolverine's co-creator has been changed to Roy Thomas??? 0

[comicwiz]

Click the first screenshot in the order to go to the post, or click here:

 

Edited March 31 by comicwiz

[Ryan.]

Listing Thomas as a co-creator does not diminish Wein's contribution. If Disney is breaking off some money to toss at Thomas then good.

[shadroch]

We used to complain about creators not getting credits, and now we complain when they do.   I don't get it.  Are they clawing back the millions of dollars Len and John received?  Will profit checks be split in two instead of three?  Why doesn't anyone argue about who created Thunderbird? 

I believe Roy Thomas was the guiding light behind the New X-Men. Where would Wolverine be today if he hadn't been plucked from obscurity and put in the group?

Does anyone remember his first appearance as being overly popular at the time? People went bonkers when Howard the Duck appeared, and it was the fans who drove Marvel to give him a book. No one was pushing for Weapon X to get a book.?  

[comicwiz]

The issue as most see it is that he was an EIC when this would have occurred, as Larry Hama puts it:

Larry Hama
"I was an editor at Marvel, and I always understood that if I created stuff as a staff employee, it belonged to the company. No editor should get further renumeration for coming up with material for their freelancers to work on. That is part of the job. They got a salary for that."

Him suggesting the character should be Canadian, and to call him Wolverine, isn't enough to establish he created the character. Add to this the EIC component mentioned above, and you end up with a co-creator grab because he's the last one standing. 

Then there's also this:

“There's another piece that is interesting because it points out that Roy's "contribution" of nationality had already been pitched by a fan in FOOM [Marvel’s fan magazine, "Friends of Ol' Marvel”].  And Dave Cockrum had claims that his character presentations/designs that led to the New X-Men included a Wolverine character."

 

[Dr. Balls]

I've never understood the implied importance of who-created-what. Unless it's on your resume and you're trying to establish a pattern of creativity to get a job, it seems pretty inconsequential. Wolverine was created by a couple people, but without artist emphasis, expertly written dialogue, editorial favoritism and marketing savvy - the greatest character in the world is merely a scrawled set of loose ideas on a page in Foom Magazine. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Wish Claremont would get more of a nod for gsxm.

It wasn't his job to finalize the ending, but they agreed to go through with his ending anyway

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/31/2024 at 12:46 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I've never understood the implied importance of who-created-what. Unless it's on your resume and you're trying to establish a pattern of creativity to get a job, it seems pretty inconsequential. Wolverine was created by a couple people, but without artist emphasis, expertly written dialogue, editorial favoritism and marketing savvy - the greatest character in the world is merely a scrawled set of loose ideas on a page in Foom Magazine. 

At least this makes more sense now 😜

[comicwiz]

On 3/31/2024 at 1:46 PM, Dr. Balls said:

I've never understood the implied importance of who-created-what. Unless it's on your resume and you're trying to establish a pattern of creativity to get a job, it seems pretty inconsequential. Wolverine was created by a couple people, but without artist emphasis, expertly written dialogue, editorial favoritism and marketing savvy - the greatest character in the world is merely a scrawled set of loose ideas on a page in Foom Magazine. 

It seems pretty obvious in this instance, the call was made to Len Wein's widow to tell her Roy Thomas is NOW in on the action from the upcoming movie. 

[Dr. Balls]

On 3/31/2024 at 11:55 AM, comicwiz said:

It seems pretty obvious in this instance, the call was made to Len Wein's widow to tell her Roy Thomas is NOW in on the action from the upcoming movie. 

Not to take anything away from all the guys who made Wolvie successful: but technically, that's their job. Marvel doesn't hire people to sit around picking their nose, and then dish out accolades when they create something amazing - they're hired to draw, write or promote characters and stories that sell comic books in a consistent fashion. There's lots of other parts to the discussion like you are pointing out - and are correct about - it just strikes me as cringy that people start tripping over themselves for creator credit, because one person says something and then the next guy in line has to chime in. It has always come across as sounding cheap and petty. (even though it ain't cheap with all that movie money at stake).

[shadroch]

On 3/31/2024 at 10:55 AM, comicwiz said:

It seems pretty obvious in this instance, the call was made to Len Wein's widow to tell her Roy Thomas is NOW in on the action from the upcoming movie. 

A call was made.  Don't make it out as if Someone in authority dictated the change by calling Len's widow.  Will she now collect less money based on her husband's co-creation? It sounds like Marvel/Disney decided to throw an old warrior a bone. Good for them. It's nice to see a corporation can have a heart.

[Gatsby77]

Having read the article, I don't think Thomas's suggestion to 1) call him Wolverine and 2) have him be Canadian are enough to warrant co-creator credit.

Totally different situation from say...Gambit, where it's understood that Jim Lee created the visuals for the character, despite not having drawn either of his first two appearances (X-Men Annual 14 or X-Men 266).

[media_junkie]

I guess my biggest issue is (if I am reading the article correctly) Roy Thomas up and said he helped create Wolverine in 2019 (45 years after the character hit the comics), and he had waited until after 2 of the 3 already credited creators had died and the third was 89 years old.  I'm not saying he did help create and I'm not saying he didn't but it isn't like Wolverine just "blew up" in the last couple years, so why didn't he claim to have created him back in the 80's or 90's?

[shadroch]

On 3/31/2024 at 10:36 AM, comicwiz said:

The issue as most see it is that he was an EIC when this would have occurred, as Larry Hama puts it:

Larry Hama
"I was an editor at Marvel, and I always understood that if I created stuff as a staff employee, it belonged to the company. No editor should get further renumeration for coming up with material for their freelancers to work on. That is part of the job. They got a salary for that."

Him suggesting the character should be Canadian, and to call him Wolverine, isn't enough to establish he created the character. Add to this the EIC component mentioned above, and you end up with a co-creator grab because he's the last one standing. 

Then there's also this:

“There's another piece that is interesting because it points out that Roy's "contribution" of nationality had already been pitched by a fan in FOOM [Marvel’s fan magazine, "Friends of Ol' Marvel”].  And Dave Cockrum had claims that his character presentations/designs that led to the New X-Men included a Wolverine character."

 

Weren't the writers paid to do the script? What further remuneration should they get? It's their job and they were paid for it.

[Gatsby77]

On 3/31/2024 at 2:03 PM, media_junkie said:

I guess my biggest issue is (if I am reading the article correctly) Roy Thomas up and said he helped create Wolverine in 2019 (45 years after the character hit the comics), and he had waited until after 2 of the 3 already credited creators had died and the third was 89 years old.  I'm not saying he did help create and I'm not saying he didn't but it isn't like Wolverine just "blew up" in the last couple years, so why didn't he claim to have created him back in the 80's or 90's?

This.

Seems mad shady to wait that long, *particularly* after not only the deaths of the primary folks who could refute his claims but also after Wolverine had already appeared in more than half a dozen films.

As many self help gurus have stated, "Ideas are cheap - execution is what matters."

Here, the execution was the character and costume designs - as well as dialogue - created in Hulk 180-182.

[Axelrod]

People be claiming credit for stuff they didn't do since the beginning of people.

[ADAMANTIUM]

On 3/31/2024 at 1:06 PM, Gatsby77 said:

This.

Seems mad shady to wait that long, *particularly* after not only the deaths of the primary folks who could refute his claims but also after Wolverine had already appeared in more than half a dozen films.

As many self help gurus have stated, "Ideas are cheap - execution is what matters."

Here, the execution was the character and costume designs - as well as dialogue - created in Hulk 180-182.

The way I'm reading it, is Marvel made the decision of using already established facts, just since he's a living body can consult and whatnot, so they changed of their own accord to include him in the royalties and basically hired him to be a living name.

I get "roy" waited so long, but I really don't thing "roy" had anything to do with it. If it was just "roy" and not Marvels idea, he would have got no where, as he didn't for 40 years.

I think this is a "Marvel decision" that everybody would think that since "ROY" has the "most to gain" he must be behind it, which is laughable given Marvels reputation with such subjects.

I don't think there was an argument in Heaven with Len Wein and Herb Trimpe rolling in their perspective graves, only that Marvel employed and gave credit established in contracts at the time, and now Marvel is changing those aspects  AND FOR WHATEVER REASON ie be it a living name to put in credits.

1)Roy just waken up one morning went to Marvel and said, "I'd like royalties?" and Marvel said "OK!" 

2)or Roy waited 40 years to "plot royalties" Ahhah! "Everyone is dead now is my chance!"

3) Or "marvel had an idea that would benefit marketing, and roy agreed"

 

Edited March 31 by ADAMANTIUM

[Readcomix]

It’s certainly nice if more foundational Marvel creators are getting a taste of $$; I can also understand them all wanting it straight for personal legacy reasons. I have no idea where the line is correctly drawn — I had no clue about Romita; I always thought Herb created the look but I guess I was wrong. (His widow is alive and is someone Chase could talk to. Paty was a Marvel writer at that time too.)

If anything, Claremont and Miller IMO could argue that their fleshing out of the character is more important than who created him. Without them, did he remain just another hero in an ensemble cast? (I’m not suggesting they list a half dozen creators, just pointing out the other side.) Wolverine is a more corporately evolved character than some, as opposed to a character that came out wholly conceived and has changed little from original vision (eg — Elfquest or TMNT)

[Gatsby77]

On 3/31/2024 at 2:18 PM, Readcomix said:

It’s certainly nice if more foundational Marvel creators are getting a taste of $$; I can also understand them all wanting it straight for personal legacy reasons. I have no idea where the line is correctly drawn — I had no clue about Romita; I always thought Herb created the look but I guess I was wrong. (His widow is alive and is someone Chase could talk to. Paty was a Marvel writer at that time too.)

If anything, Claremont and Miller IMO could argue that their fleshing out of the character is more important than who created him. Without them, did he remain just another hero in an ensemble cast? (I’m not suggesting they list a half dozen creators, just pointing out the other side.) Wolverine is a more corporately evolved character than some, as opposed to a character that came out wholly conceived and has changed little from original vision (eg — Elfquest or TMNT)

Yes - this is my issue with Deadpool as well.

Yes - Liefeld and Nicieza created his look, mannerisms and dialogue for at least his first two appearances (obvious Deathstroke plagiarism aside).

But most of the defining characteristics of Deadpool as we know him today (the saracasm, breaking the 4th wall, etc.) came later - with Joe Kelly's run in the late '90s.

So...does Joe Kelly deserves co-creator credit -- because it was his writing that made the character truly popular - and he (not Liefeld) wrote some of the most enduring characteristics of the character?

Should Jim Lee be given co-creator status for Psylocke - since British Betsy Braddock with the purple hood is so radically different from the Japanese assassin we first meet in X-Men # 256-258 - and who later appeared in the X-Men movies?  

[MattTheDuck]

It's a bit of a stretch in my mind to give an Editor credit as a creator of a character, unless he/she was actually involved in the creative effort as opposed to just editing the final product.  No one believes the editor of Arthur Conan Doyle's novels is a "co-creator" of Sherlock Holmes, even if he or she suggested a Deer Stalker.

[shadroch]

On 3/31/2024 at 11:18 AM, Readcomix said:

It’s certainly nice if more foundational Marvel creators are getting a taste of $$; I can also understand them all wanting it straight for personal legacy reasons. I have no idea where the line is correctly drawn — I had no clue about Romita; I always thought Herb created the look but I guess I was wrong. (His widow is alive and is someone Chase could talk to. Paty was a Marvel writer at that time too.)

If anything, Claremont and Miller IMO could argue that their fleshing out of the character is more important than who created him. Without them, did he remain just another hero in an ensemble cast? (I’m not suggesting they list a half dozen creators, just pointing out the other side.) Wolverine is a more corporately evolved character than some, as opposed to a character that came out wholly conceived and has changed little from original vision (eg — Elfquest or TMNT)

What would Wolverine have been if he hadn't been included in the X-Men?  He might have been a one-off character that faded into oblivion.  He might as easily been killed in #95  instead of whatshisname.

As long as the royalty checks aren't being cut from 50-50 to 33% each, I'm glad Roy is getting paid for his work transitioning Marvel in the Bronze Age.

Claremont, Bryne and Miller had much more to do with the character and his popularity than any of the three creators.

Edited March 31 by shadroch