Real Ghostbusters #1 Marvel UK Manufactured with tape on cover question 3 3

[CHUCK_COBRA]

@CGC Mike Hi! I have a question about my recently graded Real Ghostbusters #1 from Marvel UK. The comic was originally manufactured/produced/sold with a Ghostbusters button taped to the front cover (I have the button). I already knew this going in, and this was also printed on the CGC label. The book received a 9.0 but the grader's notes listed tape on the cover as one of the flaws. 

I'm not upset about the grade or anything (only one on the census!) but my question is-- should the book be dinged for something that it was manufactured and sold with? Especially when it was noted on the label? 

Thanks for any answers, insights, or opinions! 

Edited May 17 by CHUCK_COBRA

[CGC Mike]

Hi

Let me present your question to the grading team and let you know.

Mike

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/17/2024 at 12:58 PM, CGC Mike said:

Hi

Let me present your question to the grading team and let you know.

Mike

Mike, I tried to get the team to consider documenting a 'how CGC grade books with free gifts' approach here:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/531811-another-uk-free-gift-question/?do=findComment&comment=13073747

These types of questions come up so regularly it would help to have the basics noted somewhere, like here perhaps:

https://www.cgccomics.com/about/help-center-faqs/cgc-grading/collectibles-accepted-by-cgc/

Previous Forum answers from CGC staff have indicated that books slabbed without their free gifts are placed in qualified holders. That is not the case here, so it's hard to find any consistency in this area.

[CGC Mike]

On 5/16/2024 at 7:59 PM, CHUCK_COBRA said:

@CGC Mike Hi! I have a question about my recently graded Real Ghostbusters #1 from Marvel UK. The comic was originally manufactured/produced/sold with a Ghostbusters button taped to the front cover (I have the button). I already knew this going in, and this was also printed on the CGC label. The book received a 9.0 but the grader's notes listed tape on the cover as one of the flaws. 

I'm not upset about the grade or anything (only one on the census!) but my question is-- should the book be dinged for something that it was manufactured and sold with? Especially when it was noted on the label? 

Thanks for any answers, insights, or opinions! 

Here is what I was told:

We would not be able to encapsulate the book with the item attached, so a “grading curve” was created for the book that excludes the item, since every one we grade will not contain it. We do something similar for books that contain records. The record is removed and the comic graded as is.

[CGC Mike]

On 5/17/2024 at 8:10 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Mike, I tried to get the team to consider documenting a 'how CGC grade books with free gifts' approach here:

https://boards.cgccomics.com/topic/531811-another-uk-free-gift-question/?do=findComment&comment=13073747

These types of questions come up so regularly it would help to have the basics noted somewhere, like here perhaps:

https://www.cgccomics.com/about/help-center-faqs/cgc-grading/collectibles-accepted-by-cgc/

Previous Forum answers from CGC staff have indicated that books slabbed without their free gifts are placed in qualified holders. That is not the case here, so it's hard to find any consistency in this area.

I'll work on having the graders put something together for that page regarding "free gifts".

[El Toro Rojo]

@CGC Mike, same frustration with books like DOCTOR WHO WEEKLY - why are these titles getting dinged for tape stains when it was part of the book/manufacturing process?

 

[CGC Mike]

On 5/17/2024 at 1:26 PM, El Toro Rojo said:

@CGC Mike, same frustration with books like DOCTOR WHO WEEKLY - why are these titles getting dinged for tape stains when it was part of the book/manufacturing process?

 

Is this your book?  If so, can you provide an image?  

[El Toro Rojo]

It is - here you go and thanks @CGC Mike:

[CGC Mike]

Thanks for the images.  That is part of the grading curve that was created.  Looking at the OP's images, the book would not have been given a 9.0 with those 2 pieces of tape on the cover.  

The same can be said with your book.  Had it been a book that did not contain a "free gift", it would not likely been given a 7.0 with the heavy tape stain on the cover.  

This is the part of the teams statement regarding this:

"We would not be able to encapsulate the book with the item attached, so a “grading curve” was created for the book that excludes the item, since every one we grade will not contain it".

I hope this helps,

Mike

[Get Marwood & I]

I'm confused by this "grading curve" thing, Mike. For the two books in this thread so far, are you saying the tape damage was ignored? Or are you saying the books were downgraded because of it? @CGC Mike

Both book owners believe their books have been 'dinged', and the graders notes indicate the presence of the tape damage:

 

[El Toro Rojo]

@Get Marwood & I, thank you - you asked it in a better way than I did

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/17/2024 at 8:52 PM, El Toro Rojo said:

@Get Marwood & I, thank you - you asked it in a better way than I did

Oh, I don't know. I just try to break things down into a logical process. It's possible to document a clear approach to the slabbing of books with free gifts as the scenarios are limited in number. Once clarified, consistency follows. CGC sometimes resist the pursuit of clarity, as my previous attempt shows. Not sure why, as it's in their interests to have a clear policy that customers can understand. Mike's quite good at getting these things kick started though, as a middleman between the policy makers and us, so let's see what happens this time. 

[CGC Mike]

On 5/17/2024 at 2:09 PM, Get Marwood & I said:

I'm confused by this "grading curve" thing, Mike. For the two books in this thread so far, are you saying the tape damage was ignored? Or are you saying the books were downgraded because of it? @CGC Mike

Both book owners believe their books have been 'dinged', and the graders notes indicate the presence of the tape damage:

 

I believe both books got dinged.  However, the 9.0 with 2 pieces of tape would have got a much lower grade if it did not come with a free, taped on gift that was removed, leaving either tape, tape stain or both.  The same can be said about the second book.  Blue label books that did not get manufactured  with tape and/or tape stains get dinged worse as a rule.  These are both examples of the grading curve for free taped on gifts.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/18/2024 at 2:10 AM, CGC Mike said:

I believe both books got dinged.  However, the 9.0 with 2 pieces of tape would have got a much lower grade if it did not come with a free, taped on gift that was removed, leaving either tape, tape stain or both.  The same can be said about the second book.  Blue label books that did not get manufactured  with tape and/or tape stains get dinged worse as a rule.  These are both examples of the grading curve for free taped on gifts.

OK, I understand now what you mean by 'grading curve', thanks.

Mike, @CHUCK_COBRA and @El Toro Rojo are both querying why CGC would downgrade their books - albeit, as you have now clarified, with a lesser reduction than if there were no free gift involved - because CGC have adopted a principle elsewhere that certain production related defects are ignored. Are we right about that? If, say, a modern book has a physical manufacturing defect on all copies, do CGC effectively ignore it, the rationale being that to do otherwise, no copy could ever achieve high grade status? If so, do you see the inconsistency here, and why the boys have posted their concerns?

If CGC ignore cover price stamps (I have this confirmed) because they are 'part of the production / distribution process', and pencilled arrival dates, and manufacturing defects which affect every book in a run, can you see why Chuck and El are puzzled to see their comics downgraded to a curve that does not apply in other comparable, production related circumstances?

For the record, now that I understand it, I disagree with the curve in principle. For me, damage is damage regardless of how it came to be. You wouldn't accept a cracked cup as being in 'as new' condition, just because every one produced was cracked in the production process. No one would be applying a curve to it. If every issue of a comic was produced with something that physically degraded the book then no book should ever receive the highest grades possible. They are all damaged. It's a bit like the Golden Age 'bump' - it shouldn't exist. 

To introduce a middle ground grading curve just for free gifts creates even more confusion and inconsistency for CGC's customers, as this thread and others like it illustrate. It effectively means that there are three grading scenarios for books with production related damage:

1. A grade based on the physical state of the comic
2. A grade based on the physical state of the comic but with one flaw ignored completely
3. A grade based on the physical state of the comic but with one flaw considered at a lower severity than scenario #1

That feels like manipulation to me, Mike, and I think there should only be one scenario - the condition of the comic, regardless of its history. CGC are either ignoring or downplaying something that is real, physical and apparent. This may be to appease collectors who may otherwise be disgruntled that a top grade could never be achieved owing to an issue-wide defect. But is it right?

Either way, this is why I think a simple 'what we do' guide would help, as per my earlier advice to your colleague NickiO CS. If we could have some guidance on the 'what we grade' page, that would help manage future submitter's expectations and also be a handy reference point to flag to those who post related questions in the future.

Thanks for the clarification Mike. 

[CGC Mike]

I understand your concerns, Steve.  This is something I will gladly revisit at some point later on in the year.  Right now, there is just too much on everyone's plate.  Sorry.

[Get Marwood & I]

On 5/18/2024 at 12:45 PM, CGC Mike said:

I understand your concerns, Steve.  This is something I will gladly revisit at some point later on in the year.  Right now, there is just too much on everyone's plate.  Sorry.

That's OK Mike, no need to be sorry. I was just trying to help you to help current and potential submitters to better understand how CGC treat books like these, given that it has never been clear. At least we now know that books with or minus their free gifts will be dinged in line with the free gift specific grading curve if they exhibit deterioration due to tape. Thanks for clarifying that element. 

[Still Only 35c]

I have a number of UK books with free gifts taped, some already graded and some I'm considering including a Secret Wars #1 with transfers like @El Toro Rojo Doctor Who. The problem is, we are forced to submit and essentially find out how CGC will grade/treat each book. 

On books with flat sticker free gifts taped to cover in production, I see no reason why a book should be penalized for tape. Books like 2000ad #1 with larger free gifts, it somewhat makes sense as they have to be removed.

As @Get Marwood & I states a resource on the books considered would be useful; perhaps I'll setup a thread and we can start adding books and how they are treated to help those us submitting.