Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 9 9

[Forbush-Man]

Without Kirby AND DITKO,.... damn it! 

Kirby & Ditko are what set Marvel's monster books apart from the rest.  Ditko took Simon & Kirby's Silver Spider concept (and in particular Kirby's preliminary art concept) and turned it into the company's top seller...not to even mention Doctor Strange. 

Edited Tuesday at 04:35 PM by Forbush-Man

[bronze_rules]

I started to read the book last night. I would say, without deeply diving into the facts, it adds a lot more evidence that Stan was the typical front man for a creative business, taking most of the credit and benefits for himself (including knowingly using lies and hyperbole to boost the perceptions of his great contributions).  

That being said, I do feel he was a passionate salesman that tremendously helped the success of Marvel.

 

Edited Tuesday at 04:44 PM by bronze_rules

[Mmehdy]

On 9/17/2024 at 9:40 AM, bronze_rules said:

I started to read the book last night. I would say, without deeply diving into the facts, it adds a lot more evidence that Stan was the typical front man for a creative business, taking most of the credit and benefits for himself.

That being said, I do feel he was a passionate salesman that tremendously helped the success of Marvel.

 

The book in sort of real time chronologically, character by character, step by step...destroy's Stan's hype of how marvel was created. There is way too much evidence, some shocking about the real secret origin of Marvel's Big Bang...which needed to be uncovered. I am glad you got it, do not be surprised if you go back after reading to reread some of it....it takes a while after it hits you.

 Bottom line  here is NO ONE INDIVIDUAL should take credit for it all as the "FATHER" of it. The hype helped... a lot... Even if will not purchase this book, go on Amazon and read the free preview...you will see

 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:49 PM, Mmehdy said:

The book in sort of real time chronologically, character by character, step by step...destroy's Stan's hype of how marvel was created. There is way too much evidence, some shocking about the real secret origin of Marvel's Big Bang...which needed to be uncovered. I am glad you got it, do not be surprised if you go back after reading to reread some of it....it takes a while after it hits you.

 Bottom line  here is NO ONE INDIVIDUAL should take credit for it all as the "FATHER" of it. The hype helped... a lot... Even if will not purchase this book, go on Amazon and read the free preview...you will see

 

Are you on commission Mitch?

Asking for a friend.... 🤓

[Mr Sneeze]

On 9/17/2024 at 12:32 PM, Forbush-Man said:

Without Kirby AND DITKO,.... damn it! 

Kirby & Ditko are what set Marvel's monster books apart from the rest.  Ditko took Simon & Kirby's Silver Spider concept (and in particular Kirby's preliminary art concept) and turned it into the company's top seller...not to even mention Doctor Strange. 

A few years back, I read all of the Marvel silver age superheroes titles and what really stood out to me was how good Dr Strange and Spider-man are right out of the gate. Especially Dr Strange! That is an artist handing over pretty much finished work. The mood, the visuals, the story telling requiring little if anything. 

[Forbush-Man]

On 9/17/2024 at 10:20 AM, Mr Sneeze said:

A few years back, I read all of the Marvel silver age superheroes titles and what really stood out to me was how good Dr Strange and Spider-man are right out of the gate. Especially Dr Strange! That is an artist handing over pretty much finished work. The mood, the visuals, the story telling requiring little if anything. 

I couldn't imagine any other artist starting Doctor Strange as well, Ditko was the perfect one to do it.  His influence is still there with all those dimensional planes, the mindless ones , Dormamuu, Eternity, the Living Tribunal, etc... 

[Mmehdy]

On 9/17/2024 at 10:05 AM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Are you on commission Mitch?

Asking for a friend.... 🤓

No, Since the Pure Images issues...I was a marvel ZOMBIE...all the way...Until  you read those issues...My goodness, it is like a ray of sunshine...but I knew there was more to the story, and so did Greg...he got amazing stuff...like the unpublished covers of AF 15, FF3...that is the big clue....that something else was out there. Unfortunately, Greg is no longer with us (damm) but those two SDCC conversations were amazing..of course, I asked what did you not put in....I thanked him over and over...now fast forward....I know some things from Greg...cannot prove it....buy I am awakened from the Zombie BS....Board member SM posts exactly what Greg suggested and does so issue by issue.

 You have to remember I bought these books new  as a kid, and they had an atomic bomb effect on my imagination as I read FF4..30 times because it was so different.  Just imagine every week waiting for the new books and seeing FF ANN1 at the drug store...one of the greatest comic books ever created, 72 pages no reprint..25 cents, and taking it home.....

 So, it means a great deal to me as a 60-year-plus collector to find out how and why....it happened in my lifetime.

My review of the book stands.....***** out of *****....yes maybe 25 years too late,,,,I am just glad it exists.

Edited Tuesday at 09:07 PM by Mmehdy

[Prince Namor]

On 9/17/2024 at 11:32 PM, Forbush-Man said:

Without Kirby AND DITKO,.... damn it! 

Kirby & Ditko are what set Marvel's monster books apart from the rest.  Ditko took Simon & Kirby's Silver Spider concept (and in particular Kirby's preliminary art concept) and turned it into the company's top seller...not to even mention Doctor Strange. 

Of course!

Realistically... Spider-man... which was very much Ditko's... was the real catalyst that blew everything up. Yes, Lee's hype and promotion, etc. played a big part in selling Marvel... without Spider-man it doesn't become as big as it did. Spider-man is to the Silver Age, what Superman and Batman were to the Golden Age.

BUT... and this is why I say 'without Kirby', is because without Kirby walking in the door in 1958 and telling Goodman to hold off on shutting down, and starting those Monster/Sci-Fi books - and pushing Marvel to do superheroes again... Ditko getting that chance, never happens.

But yes, I agree 100% - Ditko with Spidey and Doctor Strange was HUGE!

 

[VintageComics]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:03 AM, comicwiz said:

I'm not sure how you can even expect anyone to take the questions you're asking seriously.

How about you just answer the question without the color commentary and melodrama. 

On 9/17/2024 at 8:03 AM, comicwiz said:

On 9/16/2024 at 11:10 PM, VintageComics said:

Who created that culture that was the brand that Marvel became?

You say that like it was some model that others should emulate as far as workplace standards are concerned.

The question was about the public perception of the Marvel brand from the POV of the reader. The "feel good" brand that differentiated it from other publishers. It was not a question about workplace standards. If you didn't isolate my sentence that would have been clear from the context of the rest of the post. 

[VintageComics]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:41 AM, Prince Namor said:

The first Marvel Zombie I ever encountered was many years later at a local comic shop at college. He was going on and on about how he only collected Marvel titles. I was standing in line buying my books, a month's worth after coming back from Christmas break, and which included all 4 Spidey books, Daredevil (Mazzucchelli issue), Starlin's Dreadstar, Byrne's Fantastic Four, Miracleman, and Nexus.

I just thought, "What a doofus."

Even now it just seems weird to me. To what end, would you limit yourself on reading comics? Duh.It's like saying, "I only watch Channel 4!"

Weird.

Why are you discussing and even insulting personal taste when it's entirely subjective in a thread where you're apparently only interested in facts?

[jimjum12]

On 9/17/2024 at 5:36 PM, VintageComics said:

The question was about the public perception of the Marvel brand from the POV of the reader. The "feel good" brand that differentiated it from other publishers. It was not a question about workplace standards. If you didn't isolate my sentence that would have been clear from the context of the rest of the post. 

This is what Stan Haters always disregard as either nonexistent or unimportant. I sometimes wonder if some folks didn't even bother to read them, choosing to look at the pictures only. GOD BLESS ...

-jiimbo(a friend of jesus) 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 9/16/2024 at 1:57 PM, Bookery said:

Ah yes... how could I forget about EC?  Of course, they were aiming for an older audience all along... probably an audience that was already reading books and magazines, so credits may have been a part of that?  As I said, there were occasional creator blurbs on issues prior to that... if you had some clout this probably derived from the newspaper comics, and the carryover of those credits into comics.  And not even everything at EC was signed.  But Marvel, the 1961 version, right out of the box, began crediting the writers and artists, regardless of fame, on pretty much every story, main or back-up.  This was somewhat perilous for a publisher... because it did make for the potential of creating stars before the public, and those stars could as a result negotiate bigger contracts.  Someone had to decide it was worth the gamble as a promotional gimmick.  So my question remains, is there any record of who instituted this?  Lee as editor?  Goodman as publisher?  Some sort of negotiating deal to get new writers and artists to come over to Marvel?  This was a pretty big departure from how other publishers were doing it in the early '60s.

I wonder if the full credits were a type of voucher system so that payroll knew who to reimburse.

[Terry JSA]

On 9/13/2024 at 1:32 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

I wonder if Stan's family will sue based on the title alone

You haven’t seen Chaz’s threads, have you? 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/17/2024 at 11:15 PM, Terry JSA said:

On 9/13/2024 at 6:32 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

I wonder if Stan's family will sue based on the title alone

You haven’t seen Chaz’s threads, have you? 

Sadly, I have.  

[Prince Namor]

On 9/18/2024 at 5:15 AM, Terry JSA said:

You haven’t seen Chaz’s threads, have you? 

@CGC Mike

[Prince Namor]

On 9/18/2024 at 6:05 AM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Sadly, I have.  

@CGC Mike

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:12 AM, Prince Namor said:

On 9/18/2024 at 12:05 AM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Sadly, I have.  

@CGC Mike

Still waiting for answers to pertinent questions which you have swerved.   

[Terry JSA]

On 9/17/2024 at 7:05 PM, Paul © ® ⚽️💙™ said:

Sadly, I have.  

So you already knew the answer to your own question.

[VintageComics]

On 9/17/2024 at 8:53 AM, Prince Namor said:

The 'bullpen' that Roy refers to is a perfect example. There was NO BULLPEN. Kirby, Ditko, Heck, Ayers.... they were all freelancers - they worked from home. Romita didn't move into an office (or had an office to move into) until around 1966. Marie Severin came on board, early 1965. Herb Trimpe didn't start until, either very late 1966/early 1967. There's your Bullpen of the 60's.

Both you and Comicwiz have done the same thing, repeating this but not actually answering my questions.

You keep talking to what Stan DIDN'T do, but never reply to what he did do.  

On 9/17/2024 at 10:42 AM, Prince Namor said:

My two favorite hype machines growing up were David Lee Roth in the orginal Van Halen 

Wow. David Lee Roth disgusts me. He's transparent, shallow, has zero substance and is all ego. He gets more gross every time he opens his mouth.

I loved VH's early music as a whole, but I hate who he is as a person.

On 9/17/2024 at 9:36 AM, Bookery said:

My agenda, I suppose, is that I don't like historical events being judged only through the lens of today's moment and culture.  So I mentioned that the "villainy" of not giving credit to creators was pervasive throughout the industry at the time. 

Most people don't understand how important this is. They have a knee jerk reaction without thinking it through. I'll try to speak more to this later to bring some nuance to the discussion. 

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 9/18/2024 at 12:28 AM, Terry JSA said:

So you already knew the answer to your own question.

I'm taking the fifth.