Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[Prince Namor]

In 1969 he listed himself as 'writer' on:

ASM, FF, Hulk, Millie, Thor, Silver Surfer, Chili, Mad about Millie, Captain America...

[aszumilo]

On 10/2/2024 at 7:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

Pop-Quiz 1: What was the 2nd crossover villain in ASM after Dr. Doom?

(And if crossover villains were a big part of what made Marvel special... how was ASM their best selling book without much of it?)

Pop-Quiz 2: What was the 1st crossover villain in the Fantastic Four?

(And if crossover villains were a big part of what made Marvel special... how was FF their 2nd best selling book without it?)

Pop-Quiz 3: What was the 1st crossover villain in Thor?

(And if crossover villains were a big part of what made Marvel special... how was Thor their 3rd best selling book without it?)

Dr. Strange? Not really much of a crossover villain checklist...

1.  The Beetle

2. Technically it is Sub-Mariner.  Possibly Hulk, since he was mostly the villain in FF stories.

3.  JIM - Magneto / Thor - Super Skrull

Edited October 3 by aszumilo

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:29 PM, Prince Namor said:

In 1969 he listed himself as 'writer' on:

ASM, FF, Hulk, Millie, Thor, Silver Surfer, Chili, Mad about Millie, Captain America...

...and one issue of Daredevil--a retelling of his origin story--with Gene Colan art.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:36 AM, aszumilo said:

1.  The Beetle

2. Technically it is Sub-Mariner.  Possibly Hulk, since he was mostly the villain in FF stories.

3.  JIM - Magneto / Thor - Super Skrull

Good job!

1. The Beetle is correct. Next would be... uh... Red Skull in Annual #5? Spidey didn't need crossovers to be #1.

2. I wouldn't consider either of them villains, and even so Subby it would be his first Silver Age appearance. FF didn't need crossovers to be special.

3. Two years in Thor gets his first crossover villain, even though sales are better than they've been for JIM since the Atlas days. The Super Skull makes his appearance 5 years into the run, after it's already Marvel's #3 selling book (even though that IS a pretty cool issue and maybe one of the highlights of villain crossovers).

Edited October 3 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:35 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

...and one issue of Daredevil--a retelling of his origin story--with Gene Colan art.

Another non-creative Lee trope - repeat the origin story. 

Just so a bunch of crybabies don't start ballin', I'll say I was never a fan of a few of Kirby's regularly repeated trope's either - the mistaken identity he liked to do in the first few issues or his gangsters. The FF and the 'Maggia', ugh.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:11 PM, Prince Namor said:

Spidey didn't need crossovers to be #1.

 

On 10/2/2024 at 9:11 PM, Prince Namor said:

FF didn't need crossovers to be special.

 

ASM 1 featured a Spider-Man - FF cross-over. I doubt it hurt either title. ASM 9 brought in Doc Doom. ASM 14 brought in Hulk. ASM 16 brought in DD. That fully a quarter of the first 16 issues. And 17 and 21 featured the Human Torch. 

FF no. 4 brought back the Sub-Mariner (always a villain at times) for a reprise of the old HT/Subby cross-overs popular in the GA.  FF no. 6 brought Subby back with Dr. Doom. FF no. 9 brought Subby back again. FF no. 12 brought in the Hulk. FF 14 brought back Subby again. FF 16 had Ant-Man.  That's over a third of the first 16 issues with cross-overs.

That's how you build a Universe. Villain cross-overs make it even more realistic and exciting.

 

 

Edited October 3 by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/2/2024 at 9:15 PM, Prince Namor said:

Another non-creative Lee trope - repeat the origin story. 

 

I don't know if retelling origins is a "trope," but its no Lee invention. Companies retell origin stories to bring new readers into the fold. DC did it a lot for Superman and Batman long before Marvel's SA superheroes were a glimmer in anyone's eye.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/2/2024 at 8:35 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

...and one issue of Daredevil--a retelling of his origin story--with Gene Colan art.

My favorite DD origin retold is the one by Miller. Really one of the best comics he ever pencilled. The Krigstein homage is a fantastic tip of the hat to the influence that led him to a real high period in his work.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

ASM 1 featured a Spider-Man - FF cross-over. I doubt it hurt either title.

Those are hero guest stars. DC was doing that as well.

On 10/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

ASM 9 brought in Doc Doom.

#5. That's what I said. Probably one of the least interesting stories of the first 50 issues.

On 10/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

ASM 14 brought in Hulk. ASM 16 brought in DD. That fully a quarter of the first 16 issues. And 17 and 21 featured the Human Torch.

Those are heroes. We were talking villains.

On 10/3/2024 at 2:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

FF no. 4 brought back the Sub-Mariner (always a villain at times) for a reprise of the old HT/Subby cross-overs popular in the GA.  FF no. 6 brought Subby back with Dr. Doom. FF no. 9 brought Subby back again. FF no. 12 brought in the Hulk. FF 14 brought back Subby again. FF 16 had Ant-Man.  That's over a third of the first 16 issues with cross-overs.

That's how you build a Universe. Villain cross-overs make it even more realistic and exciting.

VILLAINS. Super hero team ups everyone was doing.

DC was doing all of this before mid-1964 - Did you think Stan Lee INVENTED superhero crossovers?

 

Batman and Robin + the Legion of Super Heroes in Superman's story in Action Comics #309

Supergirl regularly appeared with Supes in those Action stories

Hawkman in the Atom #7

Green Lantern in Flash #131

Justice League of America featuring most of the main Superheroes 8 times a year

Adam Strange in JLA #24

Crisis on Earth-Two in JLA #21-22 featuring...a whole BUNCH of guest stars... is this not the very definition of an INTERWOVEN storyline?

World's Finest teaming up Batman and Superman every month

Flash in Green Lantern #13

Flash in Green Lantern #20

Green Lantern in Flash #143

Plus you have Brave and the Bold which pre-dates Marvel Team Up by 10 years:

Green Arrow and Martian Manhunter in Brave and the Bold #50

Aquaman and Hawkman in Brave and the Bold #51

Atom and Flash in Brave and the Bold #53

Kid Flash, Aqualad and Robin in Brave and the Bold #54

Metal Men and the Atom in Brave and the Bold #55

Martian Manhunter and Flash in Brave and the Bold #56

JSA in JLA #29-30

Edited October 3 by Prince Namor

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/3/2024 at 2:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

ASM 1 featured a Spider-Man - FF cross-over. I doubt it hurt either title. ASM 9 brought in Doc Doom. ASM 14 brought in Hulk. ASM 16 brought in DD. That fully a quarter of the first 16 issues. And 17 and 21 featured the Human Torch. 

FF no. 4 brought back the Sub-Mariner (always a villain at times) for a reprise of the old HT/Subby cross-overs popular in the GA.  FF no. 6 brought Subby back with Dr. Doom. FF no. 9 brought Subby back again. FF no. 12 brought in the Hulk. FF 14 brought back Subby again. FF 16 had Ant-Man.  That's over a third of the first 16 issues with cross-overs.

That's how you build a Universe. Villain cross-overs make it even more realistic and exciting.

 

 

Whether or not it was necessary, crossovers surely helped the brand. It gave 1960s kids another reason to part with their 12 cents to check out a new book. I recall that a "Real Frantic One" (one of the official ranks of Marveldom in the day) was a reader who bought 3 (or more) Marvel titles each month: a 36-cent investment. So, it seems it wasn't automatic for an FF fan (for instance) to also buy the rest of the Marvel line. They needed some tangible encouragement.

[Albert Tatlock]

Here is a link for anyone who still believes that Stan did everything he said he did.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/about-the-society/joining-the-society

[jimjum12]

On 10/3/2024 at 11:38 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

Here is a link for anyone who still believes that Stan did everything he said he did.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/about-the-society/joining-the-society

He certainly did more than you did. GOD BLESS ... 

=jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/3/2024 at 5:47 PM, jimjum12 said:

He certainly did more than you did. GOD BLESS ... 

=jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I see Stan more like the glue that held the Bullpen (real or virtual) together, rather than one of those who supplied the parts.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/3/2024 at 6:05 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

I see Stan more like the glue that held the Bullpen (real or virtual) together, rather than one of those who supplied the parts.

Kirby, Ditko, Lee.

Edited October 3 by Ken Aldred

[jimjum12]

Kirby did not write this dialogue on this page, and it shows. To call that element extraneous and noncontributory is, at minimum, obtuse. Kirby himself claimed, more than once, to have NEVER read a printed issue, so how, precisely, would he even know what he did or didn't write? This, coupled with the several times on record, where Ditko and Kirby BOTH were sent back to the drawing board to correct inadequacies with their sole efforts, cast that specter of "offness" in regard to their claims of a sole proprietorship. These instances, alone, give me pause. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friiend of jesus) 

 

Edited October 3 by jimjum12

[Mmehdy]

On 10/2/2024 at 4:41 PM, Prince Namor said:

Stan's workload:

But Stan was working what? 12 - 16 stories at once? 

Let's look at that 'working' part.

First... editors for DC worked on multiple stories at once in their departments. That's what editors do... 

Stan's role wasn't that different - talk to an artist for 5 minutes - go over a rough idea of what the story will be.

Let's take a random month, February 1966:

 

Amazing Spider-man #36 - No conversation with Ditko, he just turns in the completed work.

Avengers #27 - 5 minute conversation "Let's have the Beetle and Attuma as villains" (Stan Lee usual trope - use a villain from some other comic) I'm not sure what else could be said about that issue.

Daredevil #15 - 5 minute conversation - Have the Ox show up! (from ASM. Again, the same trope)

Fantastic Four #49 - No conversation needed. The same guy who did those previous two issues this month... wrote THIS? No. In fact, it's a great comparison to look at THIS book and contrast it with DD and Avengers in the same month.

Fantasy Masterpieces #12 - Reprint Book.

Kid Colt Outlaw #128 - Larry Lieber 17 pg story and a reprint.

Millie the Model #137 - per Stan Goldberg, he basically did these. If not... how much imput was needed for these?

Modeling with Millie #49 - Roy Thomas/Stan Goldberg.

Sgt. Fury #29 - Roy Thomas/Dick Ayers

Strange Tales #144 - Ditko turns in his work with no contact. Kirby pencils/Purcell finishes - maybe a 5 minute conversation?

Tales of Suspense #77 - Mandarin (repeat villain) with Colan (5 minute conversation) - Kirby layouts (i.e. story) for Romita on Cap

Tales to Astonish #79 - Subby, 5 minute conversation with Colan (Puppet Master from FF, LOL) - Hulk, Kirby layouts - may have been Lee idea (Hercules from Thor)

Thor #127 - mostly Kirby

Two Gun Kid #81 - Larry Lieber + a reprint

X-Men #19 - Two issues into Kirby not longer doing layouts, and Lee quits this title and gives it to Roy Thomas. A new villain! 10 minute call?

 

That’s a half a days work for Lee. MAYBE.

 

Within a year, the books that Kirby was no longer doing the art for (and had even stopped doing layouts), Lee would quit and give to someone else.

He’d abandoned all the Westerns which Kirby no longer did - He’d abandon the Avengers and the X-Men - too many characters to keep up with…

 

Really by 1967, he had Kirby to do FF, Thor, and Cap - Romita to do ASM - Steranko on Nick Fury, Everett on Subby…. he really only had to look out for Colan on Iron Man (10 pages) and Gil Kane on Hulk (10 pages).

The one full book he had was DD, again with Colan who pretty much handled the story from a thin plot (and it showed).

Juggling a lot?

For a guy who was already collecting Rolls Royce’s on what he was making and coming into work two days a week… not really.

 

 

And doing dialog? And running a business. I mean - Chaz, even you gotta admit that's pretty incredible. 

Keep in mind, Sol Brodsky ran the office. Not Stan Lee. Stan COULDN’T run the office, he was only there 2-3 days a week (per Roy Thomas).

So Lee’s big day of the month would be writing dialogue, following the notes in the margins. And according to Denny O’Neil, Lee was already using ghostwriters in the late 60’s.

Was it a lot of work? That quote by comicwiz didn’t sound like someone overworked…

“They can be either way. I verbalize them myself. I don't have the time or the interest. I'm too bored to write the plot out and I have the kind of relationship with the artist where we sit and talk for five minutes about it. “

We APPRECIATE the books that were published at an exciting time in the history of comics… but… shouldn’t it be the art and the artist’s stories we appreciate? Isn’t it really Lee’s presentation of the stories that excited people?

Thanks, Stan, for overseeing it all, but… as someone once said about Kirby… weren’t you well-paid to do the job?

 

 

I'm all for giving these artists tons of credit. But the tough sell for me since the beginning was saying Stan wasn't creative. Or panting pictures like he had no involvement.  

And that’s good! The artists DO deserve more praise and credit for what they did.

And to be clear, I never said Stan had no involvement. The 'creative' part….

No, I don't believe he was 'creative' in the sense that he came up with interesting ideas. He repeated a handful of ideas over and over - villains from another book, guest star, hero quits, etc.

DD, the Avengers, Iron Man, Giant Man… these books were all average compared to what Kirby or Ditko was doing on the books they worked on. WITHOUT those Kirby/Ditko books, Marvel would have been pretty bland.

 

The crazy thing about words on paper is, we could all read the same quotes and have different interpretations of them. 

For sure.

There’s no question in my mind that Lee did ’something’.

Is it overblown? Maybe.

Ultimately I still feel the same way:

Without Stan Lee, the Marvel Universe wouldn’t have been the same.

Without Jack Kirby, it wouldn’t have existed at all.

 

One was compensated well enough to own multiple Rolls Royce’s by 1970.

The other had to draw every day for the rest of his life to earn a living.

 

Stan Lee got more than enough praise and money for the ‘work’ he did and even more for the work OTHERS did.

I don’t think pointing it out discounts the positive things he brought to it.

 

Really, a lot of what this is for Lee fans is a feeling of slowly losing a grip on their memory of their childhood reading and being excited by a world they felt that Lee created for THEM.

It’s been a slow gradual loss:

Lee wrote all the stories… No, this shows he didn’t.

Lee co-wrote all the stories… No, not always.

Lee acted out the stories for his artists… No…

Lee’s dialogue is so realistic how people talk…. Uh….

 

It scares them to think how he’s being squeezed out of the process more and more to the point now where they’re left to fight with… his office schedule?

He’s not going to win out THERE either…

The important thing is:

NOTHING can change how Lee made those people feel as kids or how they remember it now as adults. THAT is what they should focus on. Because no one can ever take that part of it away.

 

Nor would I want to.

 

Really Stan all of them?   Really! Really!! ......fantastic reconstruction!

Edited October 3 by Mmehdy

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/3/2024 at 6:25 PM, Ken Aldred said:

Kirby, Ditko, Lee.

Without Stan, it would never have got to 11.

[royaluglydudes]

On 10/3/2024 at 1:45 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Without Stan, it would never have got to 11.

How many drummers has Stan Lee contributed to the death of? Makes you think.......

[Iconic1s]

If Stan wrote this it seems like he may have been working through some things… hidden in plain sight as they say.

 

[namisgr]

On 10/3/2024 at 11:38 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

Here is a link for anyone who still believes that Stan did everything he said he did.

Who here believes that?  It's a red herring.