Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[sfcityduck]

On 10/3/2024 at 5:31 PM, Larryw7 said:

If Stan would have told the truth while under oath, maybe the Kirby’s would have been treated more fairly.

Nothing Stan said or didn't say would have changed the legal determination. That's just a sour grapes attitude that ignores the facts that mattered. Kirby, sadly, had it right in his declaration against Joe Simon's effort to regain Cap.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/3/2024 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Thor having a hammer was certainly not Lee's idea. It was a part of the original Norse Mythology.

Almost everything about the Thor comic was part of the original Norse mythology. It was public domain. Jack farmed it hard.

Odin, Thor, Mjolnir, Sif, Baldur, Freya, Heimdal, Midgard, etc. none of it created by Jack. All of it pretty common reading for kids from the 30s to the 70s. I read Norse mythology and Greek mythology (Edith Hamilton's book) long before I learned of Marvel comics. That was not uncommon. Same was true for uber collector Dave Wigransky in the 1940s before he became a comic fanatic. Yeah, comic books are an industry built on "borrowing" the ideas of others. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 11:46 AM, sfcityduck said:

Almost everything about the Thor comic was part of the original Norse mythology. It was public domain. Jack farmed it hard.

Odin, Thor, Mjolnir, Sif, Baldur, Freya, Heimdal, Midgard, etc. none of it created by Jack. All of it pretty common reading for kids from the 30s to the 70s. I read Norse mythology and Greek mythology (Edith Hamilton's book) long before I learned of Marvel comics. That was not uncommon. Same was true for uber collector Dave Wigransky in the 1940s before he became a comic fanatic. Yeah, comic books are an industry built on "borrowing" the ideas of others. 

As opposed to claiming them as your own (like Lee).

[namisgr]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

Thor having a hammer was certainly not Lee's idea. It was a part of the original Norse Mythology.

Which of Kirby's two prior versions of Thor used a hammer for flying?  And which of the two could be turned into a cane which Thor used in human form?

Edited October 4 by namisgr

[Larryw7]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:34 AM, sfcityduck said:

Nothing Stan said or didn't say would have changed the legal determination. That's just a sour grapes attitude that ignores the facts that mattered. Kirby, sadly, had it right in his declaration against Joe Simon's effort to regain Cap.

The man lied under oath! It’s just “sour grapes” to bring that up?

[Larryw7]

Many have speculated that Jack either saw the movie Hand of Death a B sci-fi movie from 1962, or advertising material for it. Sure looks familiar.

 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 3:38 PM, namisgr said:

Which of Kirby's two prior versions of Thor used a hammer for flying?  And which of the two could be turned into a cane which Thor used in human form?

Which of any of Lee's characters used a hammer for flying before Thor? Which of Lee's characters used a cane that could turn them into human form?

Before Kirby, what action heroes did Stan Lee create? In fact... what characters did Stan Lee create at all?

Jack Frost? The Golden Age Destroyer that he stole from Jack Binder?

Kirby had a LONG history of writing heroic characters using different means to change into their alter ego.

Lee had almost none, and certainly none over the last 12 years before the FF.

But give HIM the benefit of the doubt? LOL.

Classic. 

[namisgr]

You sidestepped my two questions.

Thor is an excellent example of a Marvel character formed collaboratively by Jack and Stan.  This statement in no way, shape, or form is directed at the separate question of whether Kirby should have received more credit on the page and more pay for his collaborative work on the title.

[Prince Namor]

And then there's this:

Unusual Tales #18 from 1959.

A magical cane with the power of Thor's Hammer in it...

EVERYONE borrows... not everyone steals credit and pay for the ideas they borrow.

Hell, some people don't even borrow - they wait for their artists to do it and THEN steal the credit and the pay.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:15 PM, namisgr said:

You sidestepped my two questions.

Thor is an excellent example of a Marvel character formed collaboratively by Jack and Stan.  This statement in no way, shape, or form is directed at the separate question of whether Kirby should have received more credit on the page and more pay for his collaborative work on the title.

So if neither has a history of a character with a cane or a hammer that makes someone fly - it's assumed by you that Lee must have 'collaborated'.

Got it.

[namisgr]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:19 AM, Prince Namor said:

So if neither has a history of a character with a cane or a hammer that makes someone fly - it's assumed by you that Lee must have 'collaborated'.

Got it.

No.

An extensive Thor mythos pre-existed in comics and mythology both long before Marvel created their version.  Both Stan and Jack used that information, but added touches of their own, such as the blond hair, the costume, the human form with cane, the use of the hammer for flying, the olde English dialog, and many other embellishments.  Neither 'created' the pre-existing character, and neither 'created' concepts like hero flight, magic canes, the land of Asgard, a god of mischief, and super strength but both shaped the Marvel version.

Verily, it is you who seems to have assumed that Jack must have created everything about the character, without substantiation.  And remember that Jack was off the character entirely for a brief spell starting with JIM90 (excepting the cover to that ish), the eighth Thor issue, only starting his uninterrupted run with JIM97.

Edited October 4 by namisgr

[jimjum12]

He didn't create anything out of thin air. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:38 PM, namisgr said:

No.

An extensive Thor mythos pre-existed in comics and mythology both long before Marvel created their version.  Both Stan and Jack used that information, but added touches of their own, such as the blond hair, the costume, the human form with cane, the use of the hammer for flying, the olde English dialog, and many other embellishments.  Neither 'created' the pre-existing character, and neither 'created' concepts like hero flight, magic canes, the land of Asgard, a god of mischief, and super strength but both shaped the Marvel version.

Verily, it is you who seems to have assumed that Jack must have created everything about the character, without substantiation.  And remember that Jack was off the character entirely for a brief spell starting with JIM90 (excepting the cover to that ish), the eighth Thor issue, only starting his uninterrupted run with JIM97.

And it's clear to me where Kirby got his ideas from and expanded on them. Lee? Not so much.

And:

I'll explain EXACTLY my substantiation:

According to noted comic book historian Michale J Vassallo, Lee signed 99% of everything he touched - if he had a hand in it - in ANY way - it was 99% certain he'd sign his name. And 99% is used just from basic error, or pasted credits falling off the page, whatever. 

Stan Lee signed ZERO Monster stories that Kirby did pre-FF. 

ZERO.

He tried to take credit for writing them over the years - but Houseroy realized the glaring error there and they made up the Larry Lieber Lie.

So when Thor begins in Journey Into Mystery... guess what? NOT signed by Lee.

He remembered to sign the new book Fantastic Four (never forgot) with Jack Kirby, he remembered to sign the Hulk (never forgot) with Jack Kirby, and even that month the new books all came out, he remembered to sign Spider-man with Steve Ditko, and Tales of Suspense with Don Heck.

But not Thor, or Ant-Man. 

Because those were books - done solely by Jack Kirby.

From my book:

 

Trivia question: How many issues did Larry Lieber, when actually credited at the time, get listed as a ‘scripter’ on a Jack Kirby story?

The answer: Only 3 titles and 10 stories, all ending the same month.

Cover dated November 1962 thru February 1963 - Journey Into Mystery #86-89... Cover dated December 1962 thru February 1963 - Tales to Astonish #38-40... Cover dated December 1962 thru February 1963 - Strange Tales #103-105.

Just enough time for Jack to see that CREDIT BOX, and say, "What the HELL?" and then immediately QUIT all 3 of those books, refusing to work on anything where a novice like Larry Lieber is credited with scripting HIS actual work. (It took about 3 months for each issue to be published from start to finish).

Consider:

Kirby’s page output was averaging over 100 pages a month through June - July - August - September - October- and November of 1962.

Then, he finds out Larry Lieber is getting ‘script’ credit on some of his work (Strange Tales, Journey Into Mystery, and Tales to Astonish) and at the same time has an argument with Lee about Hulk #4 and contemplates leaving Marvel. He quits those three titles (Four if you count the Hulk after #5) and begins to work on other ideas, with the understanding that - he HAS to put up with Lee claiming ‘script’ on his stories (he’s the publisher’s ‘family’) - he’s not going to stand for anyone else stealing that credit.

[Prince Namor]

The case:

Journey Into Mystery #83, 84, 85 (first Thor stories)

Strange Tales #101, 102 (Human Torch stories)

Tales to Astonish #35, 36, 37 (first Ant-Man stories)

 

None of these are signed by Lee or Lieber. 

Edited October 4 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

That's not to say Lee didn't have input LATER. He did.

Look how he turned Hulk into a complete mess (and canceled).

Look how he turned Thor into a joke by letting Lieber actually write it without Kirby. 

The first Kirby-less issue of Thor plotted by Lee and scripted by Lieber:

https://readallcomics.com/journey-into-mystery-090/

Edited October 4 by Prince Namor

[namisgr]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:28 AM, Prince Namor said:

And it's clear to me where Kirby got his ideas from and expanded on them. Lee? Not so much.

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

[KCOComics]

Chaz - 

Almost done.  30 or so more pages. I just wrapped up the Romita section,  which I really enjoyed. 

I'll just say, to folks on both sides of the argument - the book is an absolutely fantastic collection of quotes pulled from a ton of sources. Interviews, books,  social media posts. 

In a sense, Chaz kind of guides the arguments,  while trying to let people who were there tell the story.  Some of it is a bit of a stretch for me... like the FB post about the Marvel pimp...  that argument needed a little more legs to stick for me. 

It has not swayed my argument or changed my opinion of Stan. 

Maybe that's because I'm a fan of comics and knew Stan didn't do everything. Write and plot every story. I knew how great Jack and Steve were. I understood Stan was more important for marketing and branding than he was for creative output.

And as I said before, a lot of the quotes made me realize Stan was much more involved in the story and guidance in the later 60s than i thought. 

All that said - the book is very digestible because of the quotes and stats. It doesn't feel like you're reading a 300+ page bohemeith. 

I'm not going to tell people to buy who don't want to,  but if you go in knowing Chaz's position (the title is kind of a give away) - reading that many first hand accounts from the names we've been fawning over for decades is fun and worthwhile! 

I'm glad I bought it and read it. 

 

 

 

 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:06 PM, namisgr said:

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

i.e. I presented facts. You have nothing. 

[mrc]

On 10/4/2024 at 1:42 PM, Prince Namor said:

i.e. I presented facts. You have nothing. 

Facts are usually indisputable but depending on how you view the facts will determine your decision based on the facts. An interpretation does not negate the facts, but it does put it in context of more factors that have to be considered.................

[comicwiz]

I saw this article after someone posted that "the Kirby and Ditko estates should put a lein on it".. 

Edited October 4 by comicwiz