Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[comicwiz]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

That's not to say Lee didn't have input LATER. He did.

Look how he turned Hulk into a complete mess (and canceled).

Look how he turned Thor into a joke by letting Lieber actually write it without Kirby. 

The first Kirby-less issue of Thor plotted by Lee and scripted by Lieber:

https://readallcomics.com/journey-into-mystery-090/

Oof! Al Hartley on Archie is VERY different from Al Hartley on Thor. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/4/2024 at 2:00 AM, Larryw7 said:

The man lied under oath! It’s just “sour grapes” to bring that up?

Are we talking Stan or Jack?

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:52 PM, mrc said:

Facts are usually indisputable but depending on how you view the facts will determine your decision based on the facts. An interpretation does not negate the facts, but it does put it in context of more factors that have to be considered.................

Exactly. And when the facts add up it makes it easier to make a decision one way or the other.

 

FACT: Kirby says HE created Thor, Lee says HE created Thor.

FACT: Lee actually started saying he created all the concepts of Thor, and simply assigned Kirby to draw it. Pretty much everyone knows that's a lie.

FACT: Lee was a notorious liar (I have a whole book of those lies I just released), Kirby's story has remained consistent.

FACT: Stan Lee signed everything he wanted to take credit or pay for and there's no signature in JIM #83

FACT: Kirby had done a version of Thor twice before, both times with a magic hammer, Lee never had done Thor.

FACT: Kirby had done adventure heroes/stories for 20 years. Lee wasn't writing any adventure/hero stories. He went through an entire decade writing nothing but humor and genre westerns. 

FACT: When Kirby left Thor in 1964, the book sucked. When he returned, it became one of Marvel's Top 3 selling titles.

FACT: During his time at DC, Kirby is surely aware of Joe Kubert's Viking Prince in Brave and the Bold, with long blonde hair and a Viking helmet who seeks out the Hammer of Thor and takes on the Twelve Tasks of Thor...

 

Separately, none of these are probably enough to say anything close to definitive. Together... it's hard to make a case for Lee.  

[lostboys]

This book is a hit piece by a fanboy.

Were you paid to write this book?

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/4/2024 at 6:43 AM, Prince Namor said:

Look how he turned Thor into a joke by letting Lieber actually write it without Kirby. 

The first Kirby-less issue of Thor plotted by Lee and scripted by Lieber:

https://readallcomics.com/journey-into-mystery-090/

Ah yes--the Al Hartley fiasco!

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/4/2024 at 8:52 AM, comicwiz said:

Oof! Al Hartley on Archie is VERY different from Al Hartley on Thor. 

...and quite different from his Marvel and pre-Marvel romance and western fare. His contemporary work is not dynamic, but it IS professional and polished--and he drew beautiful women. 

This issue of Thor looks like it was drawn during a caffeine-fueled all-nighter.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:04 AM, lostboys said:

This book is a hit piece by a fanboy.

Were you paid to write this book?

[Larryw7]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:56 AM, sfcityduck said:

Are we talking Stan or Jack?

 

On 10/4/2024 at 9:56 AM, sfcityduck said:

Are we talking Stan or Jack?

The guy who was deposed to tell the truth and nothing but the truth about who did what at Marvel. And said he created all of the characters, he was just being nice when he gave the other guys any semblance of credit.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:43 PM, Prince Namor said:

That's not to say Lee didn't have input LATER. He did.

Look how he turned Hulk into a complete mess (and canceled).

Look how he turned Thor into a joke by letting Lieber actually write it without Kirby. 

The first Kirby-less issue of Thor plotted by Lee and scripted by Lieber:

https://readallcomics.com/journey-into-mystery-090/

Wow!

Thanks for posting the link to JIM # 90, which I had not read in decades.

Note how, on page 7, when Thor (in his guise as Don Blake, as more than 60 seconds have elapsed) leads the aliens back to where he had been captured, his hammer is still lying on the ground, untransformed.

Take a bow, proofreader.

This truly was the Marvel Age of comics!

 

[Mr. Zipper]

I don't have the time to read 72 pages nor am I inclined to. I can't believe this is a thing and find it bizarre and creepy that grown men devote such time to it. I suspect some justify it by thinking they are some sort of historian setting the record straight, but it is such a odd and tiny hill to die on. 

[Chip Cataldo]

On 10/4/2024 at 11:57 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

I can't believe this is a thing and find it bizarre and creepy that grown men devote such time to it.

Nearly all attractive women I talk to believe this about comic books.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:17 AM, Prince Namor said:

In my book, you'll find out who REALLY (most likely) influenced Kirby's look for Thor.

Jack Kirby did Thor TWICE before the version we now know. Lee never did. And Kirby never said he created Thor from out of thin air. He did say (from my book):

“I got a kick out of doing the Thor legend, which I researched.
I kind of did my version of it. They thought that Thor should have red hair and a beard, and that’s not my Thor. So I just went my own way.”

- Jack Kirby, August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

 

Compare that to what Lee said:

“As all true devotees know, every superhero needs a special quality, a special weapon of some sort… and then I realized I could solve both problems (weapon and flying) at once - with a hammer!”

- Stan Lee, Origins of Marvel Comics, 1974

 

Thor having a hammer was certainly not Lee's idea. It was a part of the original Norse Mythology.

The origin story of Thor, as told in JIM # 83, has the Stone Men from Saturn as the villains.

Saturn is a gas giant, with no solid surface, so not an ideal home planet for beings made of stone, but leaving that aside, who do you think suggested those giant stone creatures?

Was it Jack, who had already come up with this:

........and this:

........and these:

Or was it Stan, who had already come up with

.............erm, I'll get back to you on that.

[Paul © ® ⚽️💙™]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:21 PM, Chip Cataldo said:

Nearly all attractive women I talk to believe this about comic books.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/4/2024 at 4:57 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

odd and tiny hill to die on. 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 10/4/2024 at 8:57 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

I don't have the time to read 72 pages nor am I inclined to. I can't believe this is a thing and find it bizarre and creepy that grown men devote such time to it. I suspect some justify it by thinking they are some sort of historian setting the record straight, but it is such a odd and tiny hill to die on. 

[Mr. Zipper]

On 10/4/2024 at 12:37 PM, RockMyAmadeus said:

I've been reading the Lee vs Kirby factions in online forums for 30 years. It's just as fruitful and enlightening as the red party vs the blue party and Pepsi vs Coke. A highly partisan book isn't going to change anything... it will only speak the "truth" some people want to hear. The truth lies somewhere in the middle as it does with most things. If this is how someone feels that they must right the wrongs of the world have at it. I have better ways to waste my life. 

Edited October 4 by Mr. Zipper

[Zonker]

On 10/4/2024 at 5:16 AM, Larryw7 said:

Many have speculated that Jack either saw the movie Hand of Death a B sci-fi movie from 1962, or advertising material for it. Sure looks familiar.

 

But how would that have worked?  FF #1 went on sale in August 1961.  Kirby must have produced his penciled artwork months earlier. Hard to believe a B-movie would have the advertising budget to tease this so far in advance.

[RockMyAmadeus]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:47 AM, Mr. Zipper said:

 I have better ways to waste my life. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/4/2024 at 11:47 PM, Mr. Zipper said:

I've been reading the Lee vs Kirby factions in online forums for 30 years. It's just as fruitful and enlightening as the red party vs the blue party and Pepsi vs Coke. A highly partisan book isn't going to change anything... it will only speak the "truth" some people want to hear. The truth lies somewhere in the middle as it does with most things. If this is how someone feels that they must right the wrongs of the world have at it. I have better ways to waste my life. 

Yet here you are. 

[Zonker]

On 10/4/2024 at 7:28 AM, Prince Namor said:

 

According to noted comic book historian Michale J Vassallo, Lee signed 99% of everything he touched - if he had a hand in it - in ANY way - it was 99% certain he'd sign his name. And 99% is used just from basic error, or pasted credits falling off the page, whatever. 

Stan Lee signed ZERO Monster stories that Kirby did pre-FF. 

ZERO.

 

It is hard to argue with the theory that if Stan didn't sign it, we can be 99% certain he didn't touch it.  Particularly after you showed us those examples of pin-up pages, paper doll cutout pages, etc. that nevertheless bore the Stan Lee sig.  

But it does seem this assigns a peculiarly fastidious "morality" (of a sort) to Stan of the late 1950s / early 1960s.  

"Well, I didn't have a plot conference with Jack beforehand, and I didn't re-write Jack's dialogue after-the-fact. So, I cannot sign this one, that would be wrong!  But hey, I can take Jack's Thor story and retell the plot to Larry over the phone so he can produce some new scripted dialogue, and that will let me sign my name to it as plotter, no problem.  Yeah, that's the ticket!  Excelsior!" 

I've always thought it would be simpler back in 1962 if Stan wanted to take credit for Jack's storytelling to just copy/paste the "By Stan Lee & Jack Kirby" signature from one of the early Fantastic Fours, and leave it at that. Inventing a role for Larry Lieber to play in the cover story just complicates the narrative, doesn't it?