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Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics'
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2,604 posts in this topic

On 10/12/2024 at 3:13 PM, VintageComics said:

 

To stay withing defined lanes, I do not want to dilute or distract from the conversation with Chuck, or to create a new tangent in my discussion with him, so I'm asking you directly, what do you find "defies belief" on this page?

 

There were 2 things that defied belief: The first is not on that page, but a couple of pages back the story goes that Lee was being interviewed on the radio and the host remarked that Marvel was telling a new mythology for the 20th century, and that gave Stan Lee the idea to adapt some pre-existing mythology into Marvel Comics.  It is difficult for me to believe that anyone was interviewing Stan on the radio back in 1961 before the story in JIM #83 was even in the planning stages.  This is pre-ASM #15, Amazing Fantasy #15 and very likely pre-Hulk #1.  And even if some minor local radio show did seek out the relatively unknown Stan Lee back in 1961, the entire Marvel mythology at that point in time consisted of Reed, Sue, Ben, Johnny, Sub-Mariner, and Ant Man. Not much of a pantheon yet.  It just doesn't ring true as a possible 1961 event.

But then we get to the page I posted, and Stan has decided to adapt something from Norse mythology as a result of that radio interview.  But he doesn't know which Norse god to choose until he figures out that Thor's hammer can both be a) the weapon he's looking for his hero to wield, and b) the means for that hero to fly.  Just seems way bass-ackward to me.  The logical progression to me would be: 

Choose Thor as a heroic archetype => Define the characteristics of Thor's hammer in the Marvel U => Define how the hammer lets Thor fly

But in Stan's telling it is:

Looking for a weapon => Looking for a flight scenario => So Choose Thor (How many other Norse mythological candidates were there, realistically?) hm

EDIT:  I originally typed ASM #15 when I meant Amazing Fantasy #15.

Edited by Zonker
my bad
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On 10/12/2024 at 9:53 PM, Dr. Haydn said:

Absolutely--Spider-man was "something different"--though not for the reasons that Stan stated in print. Peter Parker represented a teenage lead who was fallible (human, like his readers), and not an annoyance and a parody of teenage hipsters like his contemporary, Snapper Carr.

He was neurotic, but after the death of his Uncle Ben, how'd he fail? How was he fallible? We're TOLD he is, but...

After Ditko left the book, Spider-man was no longer the rugged individualist of something clearly written by Steve Ditko. Suddenly, under John Romita, the writing of the character changed! Almost like someone else was writing it!

Peter Parker suddenly became movie star handsome, rode a motorcycle and dated the hottest blonde on campus, had an even hotter red-head wanting to jump his bones, had a best friend who's father was rich enough to get them a swank apartment in the heart of NYC, seemed to have a lot less problems getting fabulous pictures for the biggest newspaper in NY, and... looked pretty darn HEROIC as Spider-man.

Lee always gets credit for Peter Parker’s personality but… when Ditko wrote the book with no input from Lee (who refused to talk to him because he asked for plot credit), nothing about the characters personality changes… in fact, Ditko even wrote:

 

“Stan Lee did not like my playing up the school context, of using panels with Peter Parker (PP) being involved with his classmates. He wanted Spider-man (S-m) to get into action as fast and as often as possible.

Stan rightly believed that the costumed hero is what the comic book is all about – a costumed hero in action.

But PP/S-m, a teenage hero, should be seen, understood, in his teenage context, environment. His normal (non-hero) life can't just be shown in some brief transitional sequences between a number of hero/villain clashes.”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 11. "Further Complaints and Influences of the OOs" © 2003 S. Ditko

 

“Stan liked, wanted, to see S-m in action on every page or as soon as possible, as often as possible. That's why he originally liked the split-face and spider-sense ideas. He believed the point of a super hero was to show the costumed hero in action.”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 3. "The Amazing Spider-man #1" © 2001 S. Ditko

 

“A too-closely repeated cycle is a formula that could become tiresome.
What about important cast members? Are 2 panels or no panels with Aunt May enough for a 24-page story?

Are a few panels enough for JJJ and the classmates and only merely as a break between the hero and villain clashes?

Is the development of supporting characters wanted or necessary for a continuing S-m book?

What is the point of doing a teenage hero if his regular teenage personality, his home life, school environment, etc., is to be just a brief (few panels) interruption between the hero and villain battles?”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 3. "The Amazing Spider-man #1" © 2001 S. Ditko

 

“A lot of action, merely for action's sake, forced repetitive encounters and break-off, is a stagnating cycle without some meaningful breaks in between. Otherwise, it denies the hero any real personality, any real opportunity to widen the potential drama in his personal relationships with supporting characters.”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 3. "The Amazing Spider-man #1" © 2001 S. Ditko

 

According to Ditko:

“It was around the time of the Octopus issue (#3) that Stan Lee (editor/writer) wanted to add a Spider-girl or a Spider-woman to the Spider-Man series. I was against it. We had not really done much in establishing a credible Peter Parker/Spider-Man world."

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 6. "Spider-woman/Spider-girl" © 2002 S. Ditko

 

The less outside help a hero gets, the more he alone demonstrates his abilities, determination, to overcome obstacles (personal, social, etc.) and defeat the villain. It is a greater, a real, test of his heroic personality, loyalty to real, pro-life values.”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 6. "Spider-woman/Spider-girl" © 2002 S. Ditko

 

THAT is who Ditko’s Spider-man was. The rugged individualist - the loner.

And Ditko says this, almost in passing, but it is KEY to understand about Lee:

 

“Stan never worked out a S-m "blueprint'' upon which S- m could be built. Changes or additions were arbitrary and did not follow some properly thought out, planned, story world.”

- Steve Ditko, A MINI-HISTORY, 6. "Spider-woman/Spider-girl" © 2002 S. Ditko

 

Which explains why the idea of a Spider-girl in issue #3 ISN’T out of place for Lee to say. He had no plan - no outline - no CONCEPT of what the character was and how he wanted to do it.

That’s why ASM #24 and #25-38 have no recognizable story differences to anyone - (other than they include one of the greatest runs in the history of the book - completely written and drawn by Ditko and only dialogued by Lee.) Ditko was already essentially writing the book and dictating who Peter Parker was. NOT Stan Lee.

 

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On 10/12/2024 at 1:17 PM, Zonker said:

The first is not on that page,

Ah, OK. That's why I asked, because CONTEXT is important and it wasn't apparent from the one page alone. 

On 10/12/2024 at 1:17 PM, Zonker said:

the story goes that Lee was being interviewed on the radio and the host remarked that Marvel was telling a new mythology for the 20th century, and that gave Stan Lee the idea to adapt some pre-existing mythology into Marvel Comics.  It is difficult for me to believe that anyone was interviewing Stan on the radio back in 1961 before the story in JIM #83 was even in the planning stages.  This is pre-ASM #15, and very likely pre-Hulk #1.  And even if some minor local radio show did seek out the relatively unknown Stan Lee back in 1961, the entire Marvel mythology at that point in time consisted of Reed, Sue, Ben, Johnny, Sub-Mariner, and Ant Man. Not much of a pantheon yet.  It just doesn't ring true as a possible 1961 event.

As someone who as a hobby has enjoyed learning about biblical theory and contradictions for 2 decades now I just don't see it as some big thing to complain about. 

Stan could have cudgeled himself into some small college radio station and simply exaggerated his claims. It was his job, much as @Bookery explained like the circus would claim they had the "fattest" or "tallest" person in the world on display. Ballyhoo got the word out. 

Hype men do it every day on national television when they talk about sports and even public news stations have certainly become propaganda channels this way rather than effectively relaying just pure facts. 

By ASM #14 Marvel already had quite a pantheon of heroes and villains, including Ant-Man, Fantastic Four, Spider-man, Sub-Mariner, Doom, Impossible Man, Watcher, all the Spidey-villains up to issue #14. No small feat.

It certainly wasn't Norse Mythology, but if there were 11 or 12 characters on paper, people don't know the difference between heroes and villains - they're all just characters to them, so to the independent observer the carnival barker could make it seem there was a pantheon already...especially with more coming. 

On 10/12/2024 at 1:17 PM, Zonker said:

But then we get to the page I posted, and Stan has decided to adapt something from Norse mythology as a result of that radio interview.  But he doesn't know which Norse god to choose until he figures out that Thor's hammer can both be a) the weapon he's looking for his hero to wield, and b) the means for that hero to fly.  Just seems way bass-ackward to me.  The logical progression to me would be: 

Choose Thor as a heroic archetype => Define the characteristics of Thor's hammer in the Marvel U => Define how the hammer lets Thor fly

But in Stan's telling it is:

Looking for a weapon => Looking for a flight scenario => So Choose Thor (How many other Norse mythological candidates were there, realistically?) hm

If the context is a small radio appearance for a relatively unknown publisher trying to make a name, he's going to spin it in a way that sounds exciting, and sometimes rearranging the order of events happens. I mean, look at the language in the top paragraph on the page you shared. 

It's prose. It's exaggerated. It's almost like a song verse. lol

Looking for gospel or mathematical accuracy from a fluffy press piece is not a productive way to look for facts. 

Again, our daily news does this EVERY day with almost every news piece. They omit facts and push angles.

As to the exact order, that's just nitpicking in my books. I tend to think in jumbled thoughts with 1000 of them going at once, until one prominent thought presents itself clearly and moves to the forefront. I could TOTALLY see him thinking about the Norse Gods and then choosing one with a hammer above others because it stood out. 

Or, I can see Kirby suggesting Thor, and Stan somehow realizing that using a swinging hammer for flight as the linchpin cementing their choice. 

I understand it's in print, and he's an important person, and he should be accurate, but he discussing a throwaway children's rag and he's an entertainer. Think World Wrestling Federation and Hulk Hogan. It's all schlock. 

He's quite literally a carnival barker and I treat it as such. 

Edited by VintageComics
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On 10/12/2024 at 7:10 PM, VintageComics said:

 

By ASM #14 Marvel already had quite a pantheon of heroes and villains, including Ant-Man, Fantastic Four, Spider-man, Sub-Mariner, Doom, Impossible Man, Watcher, all the Spidey-villains up to issue #14. No small feat.

It certainly wasn't Norse Mythology, but if there were 11 or 12 characters on paper, people don't know the difference between heroes and villains - they're all just characters to them, so to the independent observer the carnival barker could make it seem there was a pantheon already...especially with more coming. 

 

No, that timeline doesn't work.  If Stan is getting ideas to develop Thor, then it is prior to the first published appearance of Spider-Man.   Amazing Fantasy #15 & JIM #83 were released on the same day.  The published "mythology" for Marvel at the time JIM #83 was being planned would be up through FF#4, maybe #5.

Quote

He's quite literally a carnival barker and I treat it as such. 

Yeah, I think we're on the same page:  Treat Origins of Marvel Comics as largely a work of fiction.  (thumbsu

 

Edit:  I typed above ASM #15 when I meant AF #15, so my mistake in leading you down an incorrect timeline.

Edited by Zonker
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On 10/12/2024 at 4:22 PM, Zonker said:
On 10/12/2024 at 4:10 PM, VintageComics said:

By ASM #14 Marvel already had quite a pantheon of heroes and villains, including Ant-Man, Fantastic Four, Spider-man, Sub-Mariner, Doom, Impossible Man, Watcher, all the Spidey-villains up to issue #14. No small feat.

It certainly wasn't Norse Mythology, but if there were 11 or 12 characters on paper, people don't know the difference between heroes and villains - they're all just characters to them, so to the independent observer the carnival barker could make it seem there was a pantheon already...especially with more coming. 

 

That timeline doesn't work.  If Stan is getting ideas to develop Thor, then it is prior to the first published appearance of Spider-Man.  ASM #15 & JIM #83 were released on the same day.  The published "mythology" for Marvel at the time JIM #83 was being planned would be up through FF#4, maybe #5.

My apologies. You're right. 

I hadn't thought through the timeline because I simply took your post at your word without thinking about it and brain farted (was also texting a cute girl so that distracted me :blush:)

You'd stated it was all pre ASM #15 when you meant to say AF #15, and that's what I replied to. 

You're right. Pre AF #15 there wasn't all that much...although they may have had some characters that were going to print and hadn't yet - for example, they'd have had Spider-man  along with Hulk in the works as they were fleshing out Thor. 

I wonder how many issues they had created in advance for each title, or before an issue hit the newsstands?

 

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On 10/12/2024 at 11:16 AM, VintageComics said:

2nd question: Do you believe Stan Lee is saying here, he's responsible for giving Thor his hammer, even though it was evident to everyone that has ever heard of Thor, that Thor had a hammer since time immemorial?

Still waiting on an answer to Question #2, but going to add some more CONTEXT.

On 10/3/2024 at 9:17 PM, Prince Namor said:

In my book, you'll find out who REALLY (most likely) influenced Kirby's look for Thor.

Jack Kirby did Thor TWICE before the version we now know. Lee never did. And Kirby never said he created Thor from out of thin air. He did say (from my book):

“I got a kick out of doing the Thor legend, which I researched.
I kind of did my version of it. They thought that Thor should have red hair and a beard, and that’s not my Thor. So I just went my own way.”

- Jack Kirby, August 1–3, 1970: San Diego’s Golden State Comic Con (San Diego, California)

 

Compare that to what Lee said:

“As all true devotees know, every superhero needs a special quality, a special weapon of some sort… and then I realized I could solve both problems (weapon and flying) at once - with a hammer!”

- Stan Lee, Origins of Marvel Comics, 1974

 

Thor having a hammer was certainly not Lee's idea. It was a part of the original Norse Mythology.

 

Lee_Origins.jpeg.10b0a6118743280c2dcbc2836a385fce.jpeg

After discussing pages 180 and 181 of Origins with Zonker,  Stan Lee's quote, used by Chuck is clearly cherry-picked out of a larger quote, and not only cherry picked, but also edited to make it sound like it's saying something it's not saying. 

Everyone can see that now. 

For one, Stan wasn't saying he gave Thor the hammer as a weapon, as Chuck implied. Thor's hammer was already established in his previously known character. It was fundamental to Thor's well known identity.  

Stan was clearly saying he chose Thor because the hammer solved two problems with one attribute - Thor having a hammer gave him the weapon and the ability to fly.

Edited by VintageComics
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On 10/12/2024 at 7:29 PM, VintageComics said:

My apologies. You're right. 

I hadn't thought through the timeline because I simply took your post at your word without thinking about it and brain farted (was also texting a cute girl so that distracted me :blush:)

You'd stated it was all pre ASM #15 when you meant to say AF #15, and that's what I replied to. 

You're right. Pre AF #15 there wasn't all that much...although they may have had some characters that were going to print and hadn't yet - for example, they'd have had Spider-man  along with Hulk in the works as they were fleshing out Thor. 

I wonder how many issues they had created in advance for each title, or before an issue hit the newsstands?

 

But for Stan's story to work, the radio host would have had to perceive Marvel as currently publishing a "twentieth-century mythology" (his words, not Stan's).  That radio host would have had no way to know what was in the planning stages at Marvel, just what had already been published at the time that pre-JIM #83 conversation took place.

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On 10/11/2024 at 6:56 PM, VintageComics said:

 

The lane I picked is context.

 

On 10/12/2024 at 3:24 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

 

Ditko was already essentially writing the book and dictating who Peter Parker was. NOT Stan Lee.

 

You want context relevant to Thor, Roy? Here's some context. Oh, it also applies to PN's post about Spider-Man:

Dialoguing is definitely writing. An outline of the action is plotting. A panel breakdown is really part of the art. But dialogue is the actual words on the page that get read. And Ditko admitted that it was Lee who wrote the dialogue (including even after they had stopped speaking).

But Origins concerns AF 15, and Ditko made it very very clear that it was him and Stan, not Jack (and Joe), who co-created Spider-Man:

 “In 1961 I was working with Stan Lee (writer/editor) at Marvel Comics in producing material (stories and art) for Amazing Adventures (which became Amazing Adult Fantasy). Briefly, in regards to our working method, Stan provided the plot ideas. There would be a discussion to clear up anything, consider options and so forth. I would then do the panel/page breakdowns, pencil the visual story continuity and, on a separate piece of paper, provide a very rough panel dialogue, merely as a guide for Stan. Stan would provide the finished dialogue for the character, ideas and consistency.”  (Steve Ditko, “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man," Avenging World (2002)).

“For me, the Spider-Man saga began when Stan called me into his office and told me I would be inking Jack Kirby’s Pencils on a new Marvel hero, Spiderman. ... The Spider-Man pages Stan showed me were nothing like the published character. In fact, the only drawings of Spider-Man were on the splash and at the end. At the end, Kirby had the guy leaping at you with a web gun. Aunt May was there, and Uncle Ben was a retired policeman. He looked a lot like General Thunderbolt Ross. Anyway, the first five pages took place in the home, and the kid finds a ring and turns into Spider-Man.” (Same as above -- but note that there were four other pages that Ditko saw later and has said were not used or any influence on AF 15. Those pages had Uncle Ben as a harsh Uncle).

Ditko then told Stan that Kirby's work was very similar to Simon's "The Fly." 

“Stan called Jack about The Fly. I don’t know what was said in that call. Day later, Stan told me we would be doing SM. I would be pencilling the story panel breakdowns from Stan’s synopsis and doing the inking.” (Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 13: “Speculation”, The Comics! (Vol 14 No. 8 August 2003)). 

"For Marvel’s Spider-Man, Dr Strange and Hulk stories Stan wrote a synopsis, a one or two page brief story outline. His synopsis contained no panel/page breakdown, no specific panel ideas, no captions or panel dialogue, so there was no full story. A synopsis is an incomplete story line. As such it cannot be translated into an equivalent, usable picture story.” (Steve Ditko, A Mini-History “The Green Goblin”, The Comics Vol 12 No 7 (July 2001)). 

“Kirby’s five penciled Spiderman story/art pages were rejected. Out went the magic ring, adult Spiderman and whatever legend ideas that Spiderman story would have contained.” (Steve Ditko, “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man," Avenging World (2002)).

Ditko claims he created the costume, the web shooters, the full head mask, the logo, and (at least according to Simon) the hyphen. Ditko does not claim the Peter Parker as a teenager idea. And, indeed, although drawn by Kirby to look like an adult, he was written by Stan in the original failed attempt with Kirby as a teenager.

As to the name, Ditko thought it really didn't matter. In fact, he was pissed that Jack Kirby was claiming creation credit for Spider-Man because of the name. Ditko said:

“There have been earlier uses of the spider 'idea' in comics: Paul Gustavson’s Alias the Spider, DC’s Tarantula with his web gun, and certainly many other heroes, heroines, villains and villainesses (such as, in this last category, the earlier Black Widow, before Simon or Kirby or Lee). There was a Spider pulp novel series and a Spider movie serial, all before any Kirby or Lee Spider-Man.” (Steve Ditko, “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man”, Avenging World (2002)). [As an aside: In Origins, Stan Lee claimed that the Spider pulp was an inspiration for Spider-Man. That's also interesting context.]

And, bringing this context back to "Thor," Ditko made absolutely clear what he thought about Kirby's claim to Spider-Man creation credit versus Stan's claim to creation credit by referencing the creation credit sought by Kirby for the Norse mythology character whose name Kirby did not dream up:

“If Marvel’s Thor is a valid created work by Jack, his creation, then why isn’t Spider-Man by Stan and me [a] valid created work, our creation?” (Steve Ditko, “An Insider’s Part of Comics History: Jack Kirby’s Spider-Man”, Avenging World (2002)).

 

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On 10/12/2024 at 4:36 PM, Zonker said:

But for Stan's story to work, the radio host would have had to perceive Marvel as currently publishing a "twentieth-century mythology" (his words, not Stan's).  That radio host would have had no way to know what was in the planning stages at Marvel, just what had already been published at the time that pre-JIM #83 conversation took place.

I guess that would depend on what the radio host meant by "20th century mythology". That could mean anything, including the fact that Marvel was creating their own mythology regardless of size. That's how I take it at face value. 

There's not a pre-requisite number to call it mythology, is there?

A lot of the arguments to me just seem to stem from people looking for reasons to disagree with Stan...but in this case, we're disagreeing with the radio host?

Are you implying that maybe Stan is using the radio story from a later era and conflating it with 1961?

Edited by VintageComics
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On 10/12/2024 at 7:56 PM, VintageComics said:

I guess that would depend on what the radio host meant by "20th century mythology". That could mean anything, including the fact that Marvel was creating their own mythology regardless of size. That's how I take it at face value. 

There's not a pre-requisite number to call it mythology, is there?

A lot of the arguments to me just seem to stem from people looking for reasons to disagree with Stan...but in this case, we're disagreeing with the radio host?

Are you implying that maybe Stan is using the radio story from a later era and conflating it with 1961?

It had occurred to me that maybe a much later conversation Stan may have had about mythologies might have led him to suggest bringing Hercules from Greco-Roman mythology into the Thor strip, and into the Marvel Universe proper.  

Or, as you say, the whole thing is carnival barking, not to be taken as actual fact. (shrug)

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On 10/12/2024 at 5:03 PM, Zonker said:

It had occurred to me that maybe a much later conversation Stan may have had about mythologies might have led him to suggest bringing Hercules from Greco-Roman mythology into the Thor strip, and into the Marvel Universe proper.  

Or, as you say, the whole thing is carnival barking, not to be taken as actual fact. (shrug)

It's entirely possible Stan was just partying like a rock star and made up something out of his foggy memory that sounded true to him. lol

Or that he conflated different time periods into one new narrative because it sounded really good, not realizing he was going to be fact checked 50 years later. 

My #1 takeaway and the biggest lesson I've gotten from this entire thread has been how inaccurate human recollection can be. 

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On 10/12/2024 at 7:22 PM, Zonker said:

No, that timeline doesn't work.  If Stan is getting ideas to develop Thor, then it is prior to the first published appearance of Spider-Man.   Amazing Fantasy #15 & JIM #83 were released on the same day.  The published "mythology" for Marvel at the time JIM #83 was being planned would be up through FF#4, maybe #5.

Yeah, I think we're on the same page:  Treat Origins of Marvel Comics as largely a work of fiction.  (thumbsu

 

Edit:  I typed above ASM #15 when I meant AF #15, so my mistake in leading you down an incorrect timeline.

I apologize in advance, for not providing any venom or vitriol. I'll try to do better next time, but as an aside, one of my first jobs out of art school was freelancing for a small ad agency. Thiis was all the way into the mid 80's, yet when it came time for promotion, our first avenues were ALWAYS newspaper and radio. Interviews on radio were typically free and reached gobs of people. No social media or music streaming. EVERYONE tuned in. With the Werthan era just 5 years or so prior, a scheduled interview, engineered by Stan in the early 60's, would have been very astute and an apt way to shed light on an endeavor that was planned to exceed the previous comic book efforts that ended in bonfires in Church parking lots. New York was already knee deep in cultural revolution with the Village and it's beatniks. A very possible scenariio. Mistakes are often made when assessing the past through our present-day paradigms. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)(thumbsu

576103.jpg 

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On 10/13/2024 at 6:10 AM, VintageComics said:

Or, I can see Kirby suggesting Thor, and Stan somehow realizing that using a swinging hammer for flight as the linchpin cementing their choice.

That's not how Kirby presented ideas, at any point in his 50+ years in the business. He did it in artwork, drawings, short 5 page stories, etc.

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ADDENDUM to my post above:

Why would Ditko be upset with Kirby? Ditko answered that question in his 2002 essay: 

"In Comics Scene #2, March 1982, page 27, Jack Kirby is quoted as saying: 'I did a mess of things. The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But Spider-man was my creation.' There is an in interview with Kirby, by Gary Groth, in The Comics Journal #134, February 1990. On page 82 he says: "I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. ...."

You can read the whole article yourself below. He has fascinating things to say about creation. They are very relevant to co-creation credit. Frankly, Ditko is different than Jack or Stan because he's the one who consistently recognized co-creation. Both Lee and Kirby granted each other co-creation rights in the 1960s, but as time went on and they became older and the vitriol was flowing, they both changed their positions to an "I was the creator of X character" standpoint. Ditko did not. That's not the story that Chaz Gower wants anyone to see. Hence, the one-sided presentation. 

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1728778057257blob.jpg.8901fa9e4bce81de1e7441cb1862c341.jpg

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1728778136452blob.jpg.c11bdd57a273f43e633e0f664db9cfa3.jpg

 

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On 10/13/2024 at 6:22 AM, Zonker said:

Yeah, I think we're on the same page:  Treat Origins of Marvel Comics as largely a work of fiction.  (thumbsu

Except the mainstream media coverage of comics treated it as FACT without ever fact checking it.

And Lee repeated the same claims the rest of life as FACT.

They STILL use the golf game story as FACT, even though it was denied by both Donenfeld and Liebowitz.

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