Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[JollyComics]

On 10/11/2024 at 10:59 AM, KingOfRulers said:

 

In 2015, we sent a letter to Steve Ditko offering him $100,000 to appear at that year's Tampa Bay Comic Con.

He sent us this nice rejection letter:

Sadly, Ditko humbly shallowed his pride and stayed out of the public while Stan Lee took money all the way until his death. Ditko’s choice to stay anonymous made me saddened. Stan is all about egoism.

Ditko will never be forgotten for his greatest works and his legacy will live on.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/13/2024 at 4:28 AM, Prince Namor said:

Liars always tangle their stories up the more they speak.

So Walter Scott first had the idea about the webbing.

Edited October 13 by Albert Tatlock

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/13/2024 at 1:11 AM, jimjum12 said:

I apologize in advance, for not providing any venom or vitriol. I'll try to do better next time, but as an aside, one of my first jobs out of art school was freelancing for a small ad agency. Thiis was all the way into the mid 80's, yet when it came time for promotion, our first avenues were ALWAYS newspaper and radio. Interviews on radio were typically free and reached gobs of people. No social media or music streaming. EVERYONE tuned in. With the Werthan era just 5 years or so prior, a scheduled interview, engineered by Stan in the early 60's, would have been very astute and an apt way to shed light on an endeavor that was planned to exceed the previous comic book efforts that ended in bonfires in Church parking lots. New York was already knee deep in cultural revolution with the Village and it's beatniks. A very possible scenariio. Mistakes are often made when assessing the past through our present-day paradigms. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116310553634?_skw=stan+lee+book+secrets+behind&itmmeta=01JA2VENQK394VAMQXG9B24YJW&hash=item1b14a63422:g:8aYAAOSwQxNm005c&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKlajmm9e2S2Y7gGEb32q9pE%2BLep0x6cPAQzyKzLCF9P6nVKkKMt1Z2Mj%2Fbwh6ZjgH6XZRUfDTdxuqtEPluQDkUeLHWt%2FERjDcVFJEb45EsTzRzRGQecj9Vfo063MiVc28nGbxBYTrd8zq5x1ycfomN2WBn6kel566u9%2B7nsbF9uUT7iMZD3Dfw7D4KsgUdVO7metwJE4oWMLhb6gi8smhWk6skq71WMosB1rooSBuj76lddO0dMpL0PKi%2BpLj1254Vdy7PkmskvJtxw4yxQpTeM|tkp%3ABk9SR-7butvQZA

Seems cheap compared with this copy, sold by Excalibur yesterday, Lot 2 in their catalogue, for GBP 300 plus premium, say USD 500.

 

Edited October 13 by Albert Tatlock
correct typo.

[jimjum12]

On 10/13/2024 at 7:54 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/116310553634?_skw=stan+lee+book+secrets+behind&itmmeta=01JA2VENQK394VAMQXG9B24YJW&hash=item1b14a63422:g:8aYAAOSwQxNm005c&itmprp=enc%3AAQAJAAAA4HoV3kP08IDx%2BKZ9MfhVJKlajmm9e2S2Y7gGEb32q9pE%2BLep0x6cPAQzyKzLCF9P6nVKkKMt1Z2Mj%2Fbwh6ZjgH6XZRUfDTdxuqtEPluQDkUeLHWt%2FERjDcVFJEb45EsTzRzRGQecj9Vfo063MiVc28nGbxBYTrd8zq5x1ycfomN2WBn6kel566u9%2B7nsbF9uUT7iMZD3Dfw7D4KsgUdVO7metwJE4oWMLhb6gi8smhWk6skq71WMosB1rooSBuj76lddO0dMpL0PKi%2BpLj1254Vdy7PkmskvJtxw4yxQpTeM|tkp%3ABk9SR-7butvQZA

Seems cheap compared with this copy, sold by Excalibur yesterday, Lot 2 in their catalogue, for GBP 300 plus premium, say USD 500.

 

I bet they're not at all common. I always wanted one, but it never happened. GOD BLESS ...

-jiimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 10/12/2024 at 8:18 PM, sfcityduck said:

He and Joe Simon talked.

I had heard that at one time they were in the same neighborhood, to speed things up. GOD BLESS ...

-jiimbo(a friiend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 10/12/2024 at 11:28 PM, Prince Namor said:

Lee may have even sought some free radio time, but... no one was talking about a Marvel 'mythology' after 4 issues of the FF. 

You're right, that is a reach. I'd say the event happened, AFTER Thor had been going on and Thor was one of their top selling. I'm told it was briefly their bestselling title, but no details to add. It sounds like the type of response that would have been made to college radio, in the mid to late 60's. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Edited October 13 by jimjum12

[Zonker]

On 10/13/2024 at 10:00 AM, jimjum12 said:

You're right, that is a reach. I'd say the event happened, AFTER Thor had been going on and Thor was one of their top selling. I'm told it was briefly their bestselling title, but no details to add. It sounds like the type of response that would have been made to college radio, in the mid to late 60's. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

  A couple of pages ago I speculated a similar event might have been the seed of the idea later to bring Hercules into the Marvel Universe.  Not sure if Stan or Jack ever claimed whose idea that was.

[Albert Tatlock]

Munchausen’s syndrome is named after a German aristocrat, Baron Munchausen, who became famous for telling wild, unbelievable tales about his exploits and past.

The article I have read does not give his full name, but could it have been Stan von Munchausen?

Edited October 13 by Albert Tatlock

[themagicrobot]

I've just had a look on the Interweb to find the contents of Stan's "Secrets Behind the Comics". Stan proves that he was a salesman right from his earliest days. Not only did he charge $1 for the booklet but he also charged kids $1 (a $1 bill rather than a Cheque or Money Order??)  to "inspect their work". Who knows if he made note any of the submissions of stories/plots and used them himself in future comics..... I assume that was his home address you sent your $$$s to?

 

Edited October 13 by themagicrobot

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/13/2024 at 6:33 PM, themagicrobot said:

I assume that was his home address you sent your $$$s to?

Suite 5A suggests an accommodation address?

Delving into the phone book from the time may tell us.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/13/2024 at 6:47 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Suite 5A suggests an accommodation address?

Delving into the phone book from the time may tell us.

In the US it can also mean an office space.

But, maybe.

Edited October 13 by Ken Aldred

[PreHero]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:17 PM, Zonker said:

There were 2 things that defied belief: The first is not on that page, but a couple of pages back the story goes that Lee was being interviewed on the radio and the host remarked that Marvel was telling a new mythology for the 20th century, and that gave Stan Lee the idea to adapt some pre-existing mythology into Marvel Comics.  It is difficult for me to believe that anyone was interviewing Stan on the radio back in 1961 before the story in JIM #83 was even in the planning stages.  This is pre-ASM #15, Amazing Fantasy #15 and very likely pre-Hulk #1.  And even if some minor local radio show did seek out the relatively unknown Stan Lee back in 1961, the entire Marvel mythology at that point in time consisted of Reed, Sue, Ben, Johnny, Sub-Mariner, and Ant Man. Not much of a pantheon yet.  It just doesn't ring true as a possible 1961 event.

But then we get to the page I posted, and Stan has decided to adapt something from Norse mythology as a result of that radio interview.  But he doesn't know which Norse god to choose until he figures out that Thor's hammer can both be a) the weapon he's looking for his hero to wield, and b) the means for that hero to fly.  Just seems way bass-ackward to me.  The logical progression to me would be: 

Choose Thor as a heroic archetype => Define the characteristics of Thor's hammer in the Marvel U => Define how the hammer lets Thor fly

But in Stan's telling it is:

Looking for a weapon => Looking for a flight scenario => So Choose Thor (How many other Norse mythological candidates were there, realistically?) 

EDIT:  I originally typed ASM #15 when I meant Amazing Fantasy #15.

In Origins, Stan said "...during a recent radio interview...".  Appears he meant recent to time he wrote Origins, not when they created Thor.  Agree, he doesn't make it clear that it's recent to today, not 1961.

"Recent radio interview" may've been from March 3, 1967 on WBAI FM with Stan and Jack.  The host states "...you’ve also pioneered the use of mythological superheroes."   Stan replies in part "Well, you’ve got the right guy here ’cause I would say that Jack is the greatest mythological creator in the world. Well, we- we kicked Thor around and we came out with him.".  

Host then asks Jack about doing homework on Norse myths, to which Jack responds "Well, uh- uh, not homework in the sense that I- I went home one night and I really concentrated on it. All through the years, certainly I’ve had uh- uh, a kind of affection for any mythological type of character and, uh, my conception of what they should look like and, uh, here Stan gave me the opportunity to draw one and I wasn’t gonna draw back from really letting myself go, so I did. ".

Edited October 13 by PreHero

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/13/2024 at 6:56 PM, Ken Aldred said:

In the US it can also mean an office space.

But, maybe.

Maybe I have confused the issue here.

In Britain, an accommodation address is where you get your business mail directed to so you can pick it up from there rather than give out your home address.

[KCOComics]

On 10/13/2024 at 2:09 PM, PreHero said:

In Origins, Stan said "...during a recent radio interview...".  Appears he meant recent to time he wrote Origins, not when they created Thor.  Agree, he doesn't make it clear that it's recent to today, not 1961.

"Recent radio interview" may've been from March 3, 1967 on WBAI FM with Stan and Jack.  The host states "...you’ve also pioneered the use of mythological superheroes."   Stan replies in part "Well, you’ve got the right guy here ’cause I would say that Jack is the greatest mythological creator in the world. Well, we- we kicked Thor around and we came out with him.".  

Host then asks Jack about doing homework on Norse myths, to which Jack responds "Well, uh- uh, not homework in the sense that I- I went home one night and I really concentrated on it. All through the years, certainly I’ve had uh- uh, a kind of affection for any mythological type of character and, uh, my conception of what they should look like and, uh, here Stan gave me the opportunity to draw one and I wasn’t gonna draw back from really letting myself go, so I did. ".

 

I gotta say, in all the quotes and arguments made here, there really hasn't been a smoking gun or a new revelation that has changed my opinion about anything. Though i have learned a bit and enjoyed all that deep cut quotes. 

But here is where I am after 97 pages and I'm pretty sure everyone here, even Mitch and Chaz can agree with all of this: 

 

1) comics are better for having Stan Lee. 

2) He had something to do with the stories.... tons of artists, who have been quoted in this thread, have talked about how much or how little he's had to do with the stories. Impressively, in the early to mid 60s, he seemed to weigh in on every story.... sometimes writing entire plots. Sometimes just a sentence about which villian should be in the issue. And it whatever he was or wasn't doing really seemed to work. 

3) His dialog was a major differentiator for Marvel comics.

4) The argument about how much credit he deserves vs Jack will likely live on forever. 

 

And I'll just throw in - as a fan of comics I love Joe Simon. But I believe Jack loved Joe Simon as a friend. And I imagine if Jack were alive and reading this, he wouldn't want anyone to disparage Joe's accomplishments, even to prop up his own....

 

[Zonker]

On 10/13/2024 at 2:09 PM, PreHero said:

In Origins, Stan said "...during a recent radio interview...".  Appears he meant recent to time he wrote Origins, not when they created Thor.  Agree, he doesn't make it clear that it's recent to today, not 1961.

 

No, that timeline doesn't work either.  It is clear from the text that Stan is trying to explain the decision to create a Marvel super-hero who was also a deity, a super-hero that turned out to be the Mighty Thor. He is remembering that back in 1962 he was recalling an even earlier conversation.  What he says is:

Quote

...So I knew we just couldn't swing with Super-God. Or could we?  A thought suddenly struck me.  During a recent radio interview the talk-show host and I had been discussing our Marvel stories and he had referred to them as a twentieth-century mythology. It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations...

Edited October 13 by Zonker
pic

[VintageComics]

On 10/13/2024 at 11:09 AM, PreHero said:

In Origins, Stan said "...during a recent radio interview...".  Appears he meant recent to time he wrote Origins, not when they created Thor.  Agree, he doesn't make it clear that it's recent to today, not 1961.

"Recent radio interview" may've been from March 3, 1967 on WBAI FM with Stan and Jack.  The host states "...you’ve also pioneered the use of mythological superheroes."   Stan replies in part "Well, you’ve got the right guy here ’cause I would say that Jack is the greatest mythological creator in the world. Well, we- we kicked Thor around and we came out with him.".  

Host then asks Jack about doing homework on Norse myths, to which Jack responds "Well, uh- uh, not homework in the sense that I- I went home one night and I really concentrated on it. All through the years, certainly I’ve had uh- uh, a kind of affection for any mythological type of character and, uh, my conception of what they should look like and, uh, here Stan gave me the opportunity to draw one and I wasn’t gonna draw back from really letting myself go, so I did. ".

Right. 

This is why I asked to see the entire quote from Origins, because I wanted to study the source material before commenting on it, as one should always do.

CONTEXT.

The quote below is great...only we haven't been approaching this like a course in medieval comparative literature and allowing the historical evidence to guide our deductions at all.

We've been, quite literally just guessing and paraphrasing (and taking words out of context), which is the exact opposite of how studying the historical evidence and exactly how we got so embroiled into an emotional back and forth rather than a deductive study. 

On 10/12/2024 at 8:53 PM, Prince Namor said:

You’ve got to approach this like a course in medieval comparative literature, coming in with no set agenda and allowing the historical published evidence to help guide your deductions, not emotions."

I didn't think to look on the internet yesterday to find an Origins page (imagine that! )

Here is the page in question in spoilers (you can flip left and right to read more):

https://readcomic.net/origins-of-marvel-comics/issue-TPB/162

Spoiler

 

Stan is definitely saying that the interview happened pre Thor / JIM #83 because he's saying the radio host gave him the idea to use 'a god', so this wasn't a later interview. 

But he also clearly says this:

"During a recent radio interview the talk-show host and I had been discussing our Marvel stories and he had referred to them as a twentieth-century mythology. It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations just as those we had read as children had been handed down to us. One of the points he had made was that Marvel's heroes had some of the charisma, some of the flavor of ancient fairy tales, of ancient Greek and Norse mythology. And that was what grabbed me. That was the answer."

 

Note, the word "pantheon" that Zonker used in our back and forth discussion isn't used in Origins. I thought it was until actually reading the page with my own eyes. 

Now, with the Fantastic Four family, Mole-man, Subby and possibly Doom, Antman and Banner / Hulk is it really a stretch to believe that the radio host said "It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations"?

I'm genuinely asking if this is a strained interpretation.

I don't think it is, personally. 

The key here, is we can't even agree on what the radio announcer said without using proper references! 

It's really, REALLY important to use proper references and quotes. 

Edited October 13 by VintageComics

[Mmehdy]

On 10/13/2024 at 11:38 AM, KCOComics said:

 

I gotta say, in all the quotes and arguments made here, there really hasn't been a smoking gun or a new revelation that has changed my opinion about anything. Though i have learned a bit and enjoyed all that deep cut quotes. 

But here is where I am after 97 pages and I'm pretty sure everyone here, even Mitch and Chaz can agree with all of this: 

 

1) comics are better for having Stan Lee. 

2) He had something to do with the stories.... tons of artists, who have been quoted in this thread, have talked about how much or how little he's had to do with the stories. Impressively, in the early to mid 60s, he seemed to weigh in on every story.... sometimes writing entire plots. Sometimes just a sentence about which villian should be in the issue. And it whatever he was or wasn't doing really seemed to work. 

3) His dialog was a major differentiator for Marvel comics.

4) The argument about how much credit he deserves vs Jack will likely live on forever. 

 

And I'll just throw in - as a fan of comics I love Joe Simon. But I believe Jack loved Joe Simon as a friend. And I imagine if Jack were alive and reading this, he wouldn't want anyone to disparage Joe's accomplishments, even to prop up his own....

 

KCOC: it can be a 197 pages....I agree this is the most controversial posting of 2024.......there is a reason for that: Everyone seems to agree that the title of the "Stan Lee Lies" is factually correct. Yes even VC and followers.

 The real issue here is how much......to me it is a lot. Buy you cannot and I repeat cannot put Stan Lee in the same sentence as Jack Kirby.... Jack Kirby is the Hank Arron/Babe Ruth of comic books. Stan Lee is an *.... He took from Steve, and everyone else he could.....to the point that he claims is is the origin of Marvels Big Bang....heck no, he was a bystander who gate guarded one of the greatest comic book periods of creativity ever. I would say 1938-1942 is #1, and then I would put 1950-1955(EC) as second and even today, nothing comes close and then the Marvel 1961.-1964.

So on that note I wish to reply to your 1-4 points

1-Yes, and comics are better off thanks to Julies Schwartz whom I hold in higher that Stan Lee since he was a SF agent 1934-44, but marvel would never of happened after the 1956 comic codeAuthority was in full effect with Showcase 4 with a SF flavor, Showcase #22 GL also SF, Hawkman in Feb 61, Atom in Sept 61 As well as Adam Strange, JLA(Feb 1960) and the Batman changes in 1964....I do not see him saying he created those characters per se...not like Stan cannot walk in the his shadow. Stan Lee was a second act, but thanks to Kirby and Ditko they hit gold. Stan admits many time on his video's the golf game...JLA rip off theme....it is in his own words

2-He was editor only...not writer for sure...just read the book...example after example where Kirby/Ditko absent ...different stuff, even his brother Larry could not measure up...the evidence is just amazing in the book...you just cannot deny it.

3-He editing of Kirbys and allowing of Ditko's dialog is all you can get here.

4-There is not argument after this masterpiece of detective work on this book...it lays step by...inch by inch the total destruction of Stan Lee's Origin of Marvel comics..breaking it down to a bad fairly tale in my opinion

5-the Jack, Joe loved stuff....Jack Kirby left his life with a bad Stan Lee taste in his mouth....A straight shooter as can be......he would want justice and the truth.....Thank God someone has taken the time to really find out.....Best comic book history book of 2024 and possibly the of the 2020's

 

Edited October 13 by Mmehdy

[PreHero]

On 10/13/2024 at 11:40 AM, Zonker said:

No, that timeline doesn't work either.  It is clear from the text that Stan is trying to explain the decision to create a Marvel super-hero who was also a deity, a super-hero that turned out to be the Mighty Thor. He is remembering that back in 1962 he was recalling an even earlier conversation.  What he says is:

Still feel radio interview Stan is referring is from 1967, not 1961.  Agree Stan was in the middle of discussing Thor's creation when he tossed in this piece of info, which could imply that interview was earlier, except for the word "recent".

Just sharing historical info on WBAI interview where mythology was discussed.   As with most of this discussion, it up to each individual to interpret, as the participants are no longer here.

[VintageComics]

On 10/13/2024 at 12:20 PM, Mmehdy said:

KCOC: it can be a 197 pages....I agree this is the most controversial posting of 2024.......there is a reason for that: Everyone seems to agree that the title of the "Stan Lee Lies" is factually correct. Yes even VC and followers.

No. The heart of the issue is that the OP has a history of disparaging Stan Lee and stretching the truth to do so, and then calling it "facts" and "truth". 

And this is why there's a lot of resistance to the conclusion and a cross examination of the "facts".

Stan most likely lied more than most people thought but less than the OPs accuses him. 

On 10/13/2024 at 12:23 PM, PreHero said:

Still feel radio interview Stan is referring is from 1967, not 1961.  Agree Stan was in the middle of discussing Thor's creation when he tossed in this piece of info, which could imply that interview was earlier, except for the word "recent".

Just sharing historical info on WBAI interview where mythology was discussed.   As with most of this discussion, it up to each individual to interpret, as the participants are no longer here.

I'm open to the discussion and having my mind changed, but when Stan says "And that was what grabbed me. That was the answer." at the end of the paragraph discussing the radio announcer, that immediately dates his conversation to pre JIM #83, as it was the radio host's "mythology" comment that gave rise to the idea to do Thor.

And this isn't even saying Stan created Thor. Stan is simply saying it struck him that using the Norse Gods was a great source of inspiration. 

But again, important to note that I wouldn't take Stan's words as Gospel as his entire Origins writeup is obvious carnival barkering and fluff. It literally reads as prose. 

My earlier post just above yours was directly related to Zonker's assertion that it couldn't have been the correct timeline because the radio announcer referred to Marvel's limited canon in 1961 as "mythology" and I think on that particular front, the radio announcer could verily have used the words "twentieth-century mythology". To me, those radio announcers words are believable in that time and in that context. 

Edited October 13 by VintageComics

[jimjum12]

On 10/13/2024 at 3:08 PM, VintageComics said:

Note, the word "pantheon" that Zonker used isn't used. I thought it was until actually reading the page. 

Now, with the Fantastic Four family, Mole-man, Subby and possibly Doom, Antman and Banner / Hulk is it really a stretch to believe that the radio host said "It was his feeling that we were creating an entire contemporary mythos, a family of legends that might be handed down to future generations"?

I'm genuinely asking if this is a strained interpretation.

Stan could also have provided the host with corelative points and directions, pre-interview, knowing that Thor was on deck. It would make sense from a promotional standpoint. He may have "forgotten" that it was Kirby who suggested Thor to begin with. Kirby did have a rich history of going Thor. I think his first attempt was Adventure 75, 1942, with red hair and beard, and a bad azz hammer. Personally, I believe the undercurrent of "Origins" was semi genuine, but Lee did synthesize Jacks considerable input into his claims of autonomy. II don't for a second believe that Kirby showed up in 1957 with the entire Marvel Age on a platter, or that Stan told Jack to do whatever he wanted, and Stan would get it out with zero creative advice or input. II wouldn't be surprised if Stan wanted blonde hair and flight with Kirby adding everything else. Kirby had already used the Shakespearian speech in TOTU 16, just not so pervasively. Of all the characters, Thor is the one I would think was mostly Kirby. As for honesty and recollection I'd say without a doubt, that Ditko's take was closer to honesty, with Lee AND Kirby both tending to "embellish the truth". They were each eaten up with butthurt. Kirby had tried most of the Marvel ideas elsewhere during his career, I believe he and Lee discussed them early on, and a LOT of Lee was added. The result was kismet. GOD BLESS ... 

-jiimbo(a friend of jesus)

If anyone stole anything from Jack, it was all of us, who bought his comics for pocket change and sold them for hundreds and thousands. Did any of you send Jack a cut? Hell no. 

 

Edited October 13 by jimjum12