Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[Prince Namor]

On 10/18/2024 at 7:30 AM, sfcityduck said:

Up thread. You can verify it.

Don't see it. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 11:24 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Kirby was also way out of line for trying to claim creation credit for Spider-Man starting in the early 80s

On 10/17/2024 at 4:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby's CLAIM came from bringing the genesis of an idea for a 'Spider-man' to Marvel. No one is claiming Kirby actually created the Spider-man that we came to know, including Kirby, who in both interviews specifically cited Ditko for that.

Jack Kirby's claims in 1989:

GROTH: Can I ask what your involvement in Spider-Man was?

KIRBY: I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. 

Reality check: He did not create Spider-Man (as you now admit). He did not decide to give it to Ditko, Stan did after Ditko said Jack's idea was a Fly copy. Jack did not draw the first Spider-Man cover (which might imply he created the costume), instead he drew the second attempt at the cover for AF 15 after Stan had rejected Ditko's version. Jack did not create the character (as you now admit). He did not create the costume, Ditko did. He did not "create all those books." He's right he could not do them all, or ever create them all.

Jack Kirby's claim in Comics Scene 2 (1982):

"I did a mess of things. The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But I created Spider-Man."

Reality check: (1) This is Jack Kirby admitting (contrary to your assertions I rebutted up thread) that he never did any work on Spider-Man - which would include plotting ASM issues. (2) Here, Kirby is also claiming to create Spider-Man, not the name, not a proto idea, but Spider-Man.  So, yeah, I can see why Ditko was pissed and quoted both of these passages at the beginning of his written rebuttal that Kirby had anything to do with creating the Spider-Man in AF 15 and ASM.

 

Edited Friday at 02:04 AM by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 11:24 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Kirby was also way out of line for trying ... to claim he created all of the Timely characters in the mid-60s. ... Human Torch was obviously heavily based on Carl Burgos's original GA character creation and Sub-Mariner was created by Bill Everett, both long before Kirby worked at Timely. 

 

On 10/17/2024 at 4:51 PM, Prince Namor said:

He never claimed that.  ...  Long? Depends on what you believe the middle ground is.

Jack Kirby in his declaration against Joe Simon's attempt to get rights to Captain America (1966):

"There were no set comic characters as such at Timely at the time I was hired. The were created by us (S&K) to produce the comic magazines."

Reality check: Bill Everett created Sub-Mariner for MPFW 1 (date 4/39). It was reprinted in Marvel Comics 1 (cover date 10/39). Kirby's first work for Timely was cover dated 8/40 - SIXTEEN months after MPFW 1 and TEN months after MC 1 (MC was on issue 9). So, yeah, his statement was false because he did not join Marvel until long after it had started in GA terms.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 4:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

Ditko says that the plotting sessions involved back and forth between Stan and him. Jack never claimed that Jack had any role in Spider-Man stories and there's every reason to believe if he had he would have said so. So the lack of that claim by Jack is pretty much the end of your case on that. Ditko has said Jack's "failed ideas" had no role in the Lee and Ditko Spider-Man. So the reality is that all the evidence supports that Kirby was not involved and there's no evidence at all that Kirby was involved.

On 10/17/2024 at 5:14 PM, Prince Namor said:

We have no way of knowing what Lee and Kirby spoke about prior to any of the issues coming out. We do know that Lee solicted ideas from others. And Ditko regularly exposed Lee as being clueless in those plotting sessions between the two.

Jack Kirby's claim in Comics Scene 2 (1982): "I did a mess of things. The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did." 

Even Jack Kirby disagrees with you.

Ditko didn't like Stan's vision of the character or Stan's dialogue. But Ditko admitted the fans sure did.

On 10/17/2024 at 4:50 PM, sfcityduck said:

Ditko says that Stan showed him all of Kirby's original art (9 pages) for the failed attempt at the AF 15 story.

 

On 10/17/2024 at 5:14 PM, Prince Namor said:

5 pages.

Wrong. Ditko said in his 2002 article that he initially was given 5 pages by Stan, and that subsequently he saw another 4. Read the article. I posted it in full up thread.

[sfcityduck]

 

Me: Those facts pretty much establish that the Lee and Ditko version of Spider-Man was not created by Jack Kirby.

You: I never disputed that. 

Me now: Really? Then we agree Jack Kirby did not create Spider-Man.

 

Me: Not about Spider-Man. It wasn't Jack's book. He didn't care about it. He wasn't doing the art. Jack never contributed ideas to a book he wasn't drawing. Jack never claimed once that he came up with plots for ASM issues. If he had, he would have said so. You are making this up.

You: He didn't have to. People said Jack was ALWAYS bursting with ideas. Constantly telling them to people. 

Me now: Really? Jack denies talking to Lee about his ideas in any depth. Why would he be doing plots for Spider-Man after he was told he would not work on the book. He would not. Which is why Kirby said he never worked on that book in Comics Scene 2.

 

Me: No. It's most likely because Jack never talked to Stan about plotting ASM. Why would he. He was fired off of the character before AF 15.

You: The only reason he didn't do Spider-man is because Ditko noticed the similarities with the Fly. Ditko was originally called in to ink the story. PER Ditko.

Me now: I agree. Jack was fired off the book because Ditko alerted Stan that Kirby was just redoing the Fly.

 

Me: Why would he have discussed plots with Stan for a title that probably was not even conceived yet?

You: It was conceived. 

Me: Really? Are you aware how many months passed before Spider-Man reappeared in ASM 1? Your story is entirely implausible and Kirby disagrees with you.

 

Me: Jack never talked to Stan about plots until it was time to draw the book.

You: Jack always talked ideas.

Me now: Really? You say he didn't even talk to Stan about the plots on the books they did together. Why would he talk detailed plots for ASM 1, 2 and 3 (not coming out for what? Eight months or more?) when he didn't want to talk plots with Stan as you assert? Especially, when he "wrote" (by which he meant drew) stories one panel at a time and one page at a time? Your argument makes no sense.

 

Me: Everything you are asserting runs against every interview Jack ever gave about his methods.

You: Interviews are an incomplete story of anyone life. 

Me now: True. But if someone is asked a question and they give an on-point answer, then its a pretty good indication that is what they perceive what happened. And you have nothing to dispute what Kirby said happened.

Edited Friday at 01:51 AM by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 4:27 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

The artists wrote the stories. At the very least, they should've been paid for plotting. Lee claimed that money. 

What is the evidence Marvel paid a separate amount for "plotting"?

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 8:02 AM, Prince Namor said:

Kirby's Fly looks smaller than Romita's Spider-man. And about the same as Ditko's. 

 

 

Unused Ditko cover. A smaller less powerful more flexible Spider-Man.

Same with interior pages:

https://the-comic-book-forum.boards.net/thread/913/amazing-fantasy-15-original-art

 

Edited Friday at 01:59 AM by sfcityduck

[DanJD]

After 112 pages, neither side has given up ground.  You guys might need to agree to disagree before someone has a heart attack.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 6:58 PM, DanJD said:

After 112 pages, neither side has given up ground.  You guys might need to agree to disagree before someone has a heart attack.

Nah. While I admittedly started near the middle (e.g. neither Stan nor Jack created everything - there was a lot of co-creation going on), I'm now conceding PN might be right that Jack created Thor on his own. Based solely on new evidence he says appears on the soon surfacing JIM 83 art. 

[Zonker]

On 10/17/2024 at 10:02 PM, sfcityduck said:

Nah. While I admittedly started near the middle (e.g. neither Stan nor Jack created everything - there was a lot of co-creation going on), I'm now conceding PN might be right that Jack created Thor on his own. Based solely on new evidence he says appears on the soon surfacing JIM 83 art. 

I'm curious-- what's your going-in position on Doctor Strange?  Stan's contemporaneous statement ( 'twas Steve's idea ) and lack of editorial hype for the strip in its earliest days seem to support Ditko's contention that Ditko solely created the character.  If Stan simply re-wrote Ditko's dialogue to add in those trademark alliterative exclamations ("By the Hairy Hordes of Hogarth!" etc.) does that make Stan a full co-creator?

Edited Friday at 02:27 AM by Zonker
sp

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 7:26 PM, Zonker said:

I'm curious-- what's your going-in position on Doctor Strange?  Stan's contemporaneous statement ( 'twas Steve's idea ) and lack of editorial hype for the strip in its earliest days seem to support Ditko's contention that Ditko solely created the character.  If Stan simply re-wrote Ditko's dialogue to add in those trademark alliterative exclamations ("By the Hairy Hordes of Hogarth!" etc.) does that make Stan a full co-creator?

Ditko has written that he did not provide dialogue to Stan. I have no real opinions on Dr. Strange never having been fan. I have a Masterworks around here so someday I could look. But if the dialogue was integral to the character (which it almost always was for Marvel characters), and Stan did the dialogue/captions then I'd say he was writer and deserved co-creation credit.

To me almost all comic book characters require both an artist and a writer (dialogue/captions) to be created, whether it is full script or Marvel method. Because a comic book is a combination of pictures and words and a character is a combination of look, sound, and feel (which may be a combo of the first two). 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/18/2024 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack Kirby's claims in 1989:

GROTH: Can I ask what your involvement in Spider-Man was?

KIRBY: I created Spider-Man. We decided to give it to Steve Ditko. I drew the first Spider-Man cover. I created the character. I created the costume. I created all those books, but I couldn’t do them all. 

Reality check: He did not create Spider-Man (as you now admit). He did not decide to give it to Ditko, Stan did after Ditko said Jack's idea was a Fly copy. Jack did not draw the first Spider-Man cover (which might imply he created the costume), instead he drew the second attempt at the cover for AF 15 after Stan had rejected Ditko's version.

According to Ditko based on what he was told by Lee.

On 10/18/2024 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack did not create the character (as you now admit). He did not create the costume, Ditko did. He did not "create all those books." He's right he could not do them all, or ever create them all.

Kirby brought the original idea to Lee. After Ditko pointed out the similarities to the Fly to Lee, Lee called Kirby and they spoke about it. 

Did Stan simply NOT tell Kirby he wasn't going to use his version? Most likely not. Most likely he said to Jack, "Why don't we have Ditko try his hand at it."

Thus 'We' decided to give it to Steve Ditko.

On 10/18/2024 at 7:58 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack Kirby's claim in Comics Scene 2 (1982):

"I did a mess of things. The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did. But I created Spider-Man."

Reality check: (1) This is Jack Kirby admitting (contrary to your assertions I rebutted up thread) that he never did any work on Spider-Man - which would include plotting ASM issues. (2) Here, Kirby is also claiming to create Spider-Man, not the name, not a proto idea, but Spider-Man.  So, yeah, I can see why Ditko was pissed and quoted both of these passages at the beginning of his written rebuttal that Kirby had anything to do with creating the Spider-Man in AF 15 and ASM.

Kirby brought the original idea to Lee. There's no 'proof' he didn't give ideas to Lee that he used for other titles. IN FACT, based on substantial similarities, it most likely DID happen. Was it specific to Spider-man? No, because we also see it in Iron Man. 

You can deny it all you want - it happens multiple times, making it very likely.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/18/2024 at 8:12 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack Kirby in his declaration against Joe Simon's attempt to get rights to Captain America (1966):

"There were no set comic characters as such at Timely at the time I was hired. The were created by us (S&K) to produce the comic magazines."

Reality check: Bill Everett created Sub-Mariner for MPFW 1 (date 4/39). It was reprinted in Marvel Comics 1 (cover date 10/39). Kirby's first work for Timely was cover dated 8/40 - SIXTEEN months after MPFW 1 and TEN months after MC 1 (MC was on issue 9). So, yeah, his statement was false because he did not join Marvel until long after it had started in GA terms.

A year is a long time?

[Prince Namor]

On 10/18/2024 at 8:25 AM, sfcityduck said:

Jack Kirby's claim in Comics Scene 2 (1982): "I did a mess of things. The only book I didn't work on was Spider-Man, which Steve Ditko did." 

Even Jack Kirby disagrees with you.

Ditko didn't like Stan's vision of the character or Stan's dialogue. But Ditko admitted the fans sure did.

Wrong. Ditko said in his 2002 article that he initially was given 5 pages by Stan, and that subsequently he saw another 4. Read the article. I posted it in full up thread.

And Shooter says he found 5 pages

[Prince Namor]

On 10/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Me: Those facts pretty much establish that the Lee and Ditko version of Spider-Man was not created by Jack Kirby.

You: I never disputed that. 

Me now: Really? Then we agree Jack Kirby did not create Spider-Man.

I never said he DID.

He brought the original idea to Lee that Ditko and Lee reworked. Instead of creating scenarios in your head, READ what is actually said and ask questions to clarify the meaning if a word or two confuses you. 

On 10/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Me: Not about Spider-Man. It wasn't Jack's book. He didn't care about it. He wasn't doing the art. Jack never contributed ideas to a book he wasn't drawing. Jack never claimed once that he came up with plots for ASM issues. If he had, he would have said so. You are making this up.

You: He didn't have to. People said Jack was ALWAYS bursting with ideas. Constantly telling them to people. 

Me now: Really? Jack denies talking to Lee about his ideas in any depth. Why would he be doing plots for Spider-Man after he was told he would not work on the book. He would not. Which is why Kirby said he never worked on that book in Comics Scene 2.

Yawn. Kirby most likely gave ideas to Lee that he used for other books. You'll never convince me otherwise. The proof is there. 

On 10/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Me: No. It's most likely because Jack never talked to Stan about plotting ASM. Why would he. He was fired off of the character before AF 15.

You: The only reason he didn't do Spider-man is because Ditko noticed the similarities with the Fly. Ditko was originally called in to ink the story. PER Ditko.

Me now: I agree. Jack was fired off the book because Ditko alerted Stan that Kirby was just redoing the Fly.

I...

On 10/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Me: Why would he have discussed plots with Stan for a title that probably was not even conceived yet?

You: It was conceived. 

Me: Really? Are you aware how many months passed before Spider-Man reappeared in ASM 1? Your story is entirely implausible and Kirby disagrees with you.

Not saying it is, is not the same as disagreeing.

On 10/18/2024 at 8:35 AM, sfcityduck said:

 

Me: Jack never talked to Stan about plots until it was time to draw the book.

You: Jack always talked ideas.

Me now: Really? You say he didn't even talk to Stan about the plots on the books they did together. Why would he talk detailed plots for ASM 1, 2 and 3 (not coming out for what? Eight months or more?) when he didn't want to talk plots with Stan as you assert? Especially, when he "wrote" (by which he meant drew) stories one panel at a time and one page at a time? Your argument makes no sense.

 

Me: Everything you are asserting runs against every interview Jack ever gave about his methods.

You: Interviews are an incomplete story of anyone life. 

Me now: True. But if someone is asked a question and they give an on-point answer, then its a pretty good indication that is what they perceive what happened. And you have nothing to dispute what Kirby said happened.

I just stopped half way through. It's amazing that Blue Chips calls me out as bullying through a constant barrage of posts, but no one does YOU.

Let's save time.

You'll NEVER convince me that:

A. Kirby brought the idea of Spider-man to Lee (even though he and Ditko reworked it to something completely different)

B. That Kirby didn't give ideas to Lee that he used for other stories.

 

Everything else is just first year lawyer-eze nonsense to confuse the issue

 

Edited Friday at 04:21 AM by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

   On 10/18/2024 at 12:51 AM,  sfcityduck said:

On the other hand, PN argues and quotes Kirby to support the concept that Kirby was powerless to change his lot in life because Stan was favored by Goodman. 

Still not seeing where I said this.

 

   On 10/18/2024 at 12:51 AM,  sfcityduck said:

On the other hand, PN argues and quotes Kirby to support the concept that Kirby was powerless to change his lot in life because Stan was favored by Goodman. 

Still not seeing where I said this.

 

You gonna show me PROOF, lawyer or just make up words I didn't say?

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:05 PM, Prince Namor said:

And Shooter says he found 5 pages

Shooter says he found five pages or he says Ditko found five pages? Because apparently the pages were not all together. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:19 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

   On 10/18/2024 at 12:51 AM,  sfcityduck said:

On the other hand, PN argues and quotes Kirby to support the concept that Kirby was powerless to change his lot in life because Stan was favored by Goodman. 

Still not seeing where I said this.

 

You gonna show me PROOF, lawyer or just make up words I didn't say?

I don't have time to go through 100+ pages of this thread. But I'm pretty sure I saw you reference the following statements by Kirby in the 1989 TCJ interview:

GROTH: How did you feel during the ’60s when Stan became a personality in the books and sort of became the official spokesman and figurehead for Marvel Comics?

KIRBY: Well, Stan became a personality through his relationship with the owner.

...

GROTH: Did you sort of see it coming in the ’60s when Stan was putting his name all over the place? Did you see this kind of— ?

KIRBY: Well, you don’t have to see a thing like that coming. It was happening, and I didn’t know what to do about it. Stan Lee was the editor, and Stan had a lot of influence at Marvel, and there was nothing you could do about it. Who are you going to talk to about it, see?

 

Of course, I've read your posts on the old TCJ message boards and maybe I'm thinking of something you posted there back around 2011. But are you really saying you don't agree with Kirby on his above statements?

Edited Friday at 05:49 AM by sfcityduck

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:14 PM, Prince Namor said:

 

Yawn. Kirby most likely gave ideas to Lee that he used for other books. You'll never convince me otherwise. The proof is there. 

...

You'll NEVER convince me that:

...

B. That Kirby didn't give ideas to Lee that he used for other stories.

 

Everything else is just first year lawyer-eze nonsense to confuse the issue 

And yet, you've basically adopted what Kirby said below:

GROTH: Can you explain how you worked? I think according to Stan he would give you a plot, you would draw it, and he would write it. Now would you dispute —

ROZ KIRBY: [Stan] would say that he needs the story, and I think they talked two minutes on the phone, and then Jack would go off and write the story on the side of the art.

KIRBY: Stan didn’t know what the heck the stories were about.

With an attitude like that, are you really telling me that Kirby was feeding Stan plots for comics that Kirby didn't work on, in fact had been pulled off? That has zero plausibility. Stan and Kirby weren't hanging out talking plots for books that Jack didn't work on. Jack never claimed that, Stan never claimed that, and Ditko never claimed that. 

If you have some "proof," what it is? 

Because just making bald assertions is not "proof."

[sfcityduck]

On 10/17/2024 at 9:05 PM, Prince Namor said:

A year is a long time?

At that time, it was about 1/3rd of the history of superheros. So, as a I said, from a GA perspective it was. I'm pretty sure that Kirby would have been impressed that MMC had already run 9 issues of superhero comics. 

But that's just an opinion we can agree to disagree.