Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[Prince Namor]

On 10/21/2024 at 8:53 PM, VintageComics said:

NOBODY has stated this.

NOBODY has agreed that moral or ethical compromise is acceptable throughout this entire discussion. 

Please provide a quote where someone, or where I have stated this.

You said:

Posted yesterday at 02:00 AM (edited)

The "Marvel Method" was inevitable. Stan just got there first. It allows for a more intricate relationship between script / visual therefore allowing for a better reading experience. 

Whether the monies were taken advantage of later or not is a completely different discussion. 

Saying the "Marvel Method" was a theft scheme from the start, as is the premise if this thread, you would have to dismiss how successful the comics were BECAUSE of the method...and this is exactly why the OP attacks and undermines the success of Marvel consistently with such zeal throughout the entire discussion. If the books actually WERE successful, and they were, then this would support the Marvel Method as a successful means of comic book production. 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like you are saying it's a valid method because it was successful. That discounts it's nature, which stole credit and pay from the people who did the actual work. 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/21/2024 at 9:13 PM, VintageComics said:

This quote of yours above is the one in question.

The point of your post, as you explain, is to help people understand who "REALLY (most likely) influenced Kirby's look for Thor." [all your words]

You provide a Kirby quote where Kirby says this:

“I got a kick out of doing the Thor legend, which I researched.
I kind of did my version of it. They thought that Thor should have red hair and a beard, and that’s not my Thor. So I just went my own way.”

 

Then, as a counterpoint to Kirby's quote, to 'prove' that Stan was "stealing" from Kirby, you offer this edited quote of Stan's from Origins:

“As all true devotees know, every superhero needs a special quality, a special weapon of some sort… and then I realized I could solve both problems (weapon and flying) at once - with a hammer!”

Then, you go on to state with your own words:

"Thor having a hammer was certainly not Lee's idea. It was a part of the original Norse Mythology."

So you're clearly stating that Stan is taking credit for adding Thor's hammer as a part of Thor's look.

Is that correct?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Is there any other way to understand or conclude what you stated here in your last sentence?

If I'm misunderstanding, please help me understand what you meant with that concluding sentence. 

Again... NOT the overall POINT, but I'll still bite.

Yes, it sounds like Lee was trying to make it vague as if HE came up with the idea. It's not out of the question, considering he's writing a book that claims he created ALL of the characters and stories and simply assigned a writer. That's a WHOPPER of a Lie. Understand how that plays into it?

And you're building your camp on this one little insignificant quote?

And IS IT what he really meant?

Neither of us can truly 100% know what his intention was in that sentence. My opinion is, that he was being vague on purpose. It's what liars do. Just because you disagree and see it differently, doesn't mean you're right.

Again: Neither of us can truly 100% know what his intention was in that sentence.

It's a small, small, small, detail of information within the overall theme:

Stan Lee most likely had nothing to do with the creation of Marvel's Thor.

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:48 AM, Prince Namor said:

That discounts it's nature, which stole credit and pay from the people who did the actual work.

They accepted the terms and cashed the checks, in some cases for decades. Stan's job was never to enrich them or to change their diapers. Why this is so difficult to understand, confuses me. As for the book about lies, I'm still hoping to read it, but in all honesty, you've already convinced me that "Origins", which I held in high regard as near gospel, has been significantly embellished by Stan, and it HAS been a hard pill to swallow. Maybe a couple of good-spirited polls may be truly in order, to help quantify some of the opinions and "anecdotal" claims.  GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

[Prince Namor]

On 10/21/2024 at 10:20 PM, jimjum12 said:

They accepted the terms and cashed the checks, in some cases for decades. Stan's job was never to enrich them or to change their diapers. Why this is so difficult to understand, confuses me.

Stan was in a position of power over them. He had leverage. At a time when it was not that easy for artists to find steady work.

This is the basis for almost every labor dispute in history.

Why THAT is so difficult to understand, confuses me.

What would Jesus have done? 

On 10/21/2024 at 10:20 PM, jimjum12 said:

As for the book about lies, I'm still hoping to read it, but in all honesty, you've already convinced me that "Origins", which I held in high regard as near gospel, has been significantly embellished by Stan, and it HAS been a hard pill to swallow. Maybe a couple of good-spirited polls may be truly in order, to help quantify some of the opinions and "anecdotal" claims.  GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Well if anything... you'll read some quotes by people you might not have ever read or discover something you might not have known. Or find something to curse me about, or whatever. 

I mean... It's not my position to make people hate Lee. That's up to them. 

I could do a book about 60's and 70's Rock Stars having sex with groupies they SHOULDN'T HAVE - if you know what I mean... I'd want to get to the bottom of it and know the truth, but honestly it still wouldn't make me hate Led Zeppelin. 

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 11:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

Stan was in a position of power over them. He had leverage. At a time when it was not that easy for artists to find steady work.

This is the basis for almost every labor dispute in history.

Why THAT is so difficult to understand, confuses me.

What would Jesus have done? 

Well if anything... you'll read some quotes by people you might not have ever read or discover something you might not have known. Or find something to curse me about, or whatever. 

I mean... It's not my position to make people hate Lee. That's up to them. 

I could do a book about 60's and 70's Rock Stars having sex with groupies they SHOULDN'T HAVE - if you know what I mean... I'd want to get to the bottom of it and know the truth, but honestly it still wouldn't make me hate Led Zeppelin. 

....As it is not MY position to do your thinking for you ... I know better.  What I DO know, I'm all for compilations of the bits and pieces of early SA history, which, unfortunately, consist of NUMEROUS yet brief anecdotal interviews, after the fact. Until the mid 60's and the age of cultural revolution, they were just funny books. My one probably futile hope is that the articles could be footnoted so a timeline of sorts could be established. It will always be a giant puzzle, albeit a very interesting one. GOD BLESS... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

Judy wanted me to ask you if you ever went to B&R Comics in St Louis?

Edited Monday at 03:45 PM by jimjum12

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 11:31 AM, Prince Namor said:

What would Jesus have done? 

Not comics.

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/21/2024 at 4:31 PM, Prince Namor said:

What would Jesus have done?

 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/21/2024 at 4:47 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=life+of+brian+stoning+scene&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB873GB873&oq=life&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBggAEEUYOzIGCAAQRRg7MhIIARAuGEMY1AIYsQMYgAQYigUyDAgCEC4YQxiABBiKBTISCAMQLhhDGNQCGLEDGIAEGIoFMhIIBBAuGEMYxwEY0QMYgAQYigUyDAgFEAAYQxiABBiKBTIMCAYQABhDGIAEGIoFMgYIBxBFGD3SAQgyODQ1ajBqNKgCALACAQ&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:ac2780f5,vid:Cnn2aGVcCEc,st:0

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 11:47 AM, Albert Tatlock said:

 

...and don't mss!

GOD BLESS ...

-jmbo(a frend of jesus)

 

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

[seanfingh]

Maybe you guys addressed this earlier. But I didn't think that early on Thor was flying.  I thought it explained that he whirled the hammer and threw it, and then he caught the thong and went along for the ride.

[jimjum12]

 may probably be w-w-wr-r-wro-wro--wrong about one thing, Ditko and Kirby should receive royalties for some reprint material and licensing. Unless they signed specific contracts voiding that entitlement. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

[namisgr]

On 10/21/2024 at 12:13 PM, seanfingh said:

Maybe you guys addressed this earlier. But I didn't think that early on Thor was flying.  I thought it explained that he whirled the hammer and threw it, and then he caught the thong and went along for the ride.

Sounds like hammer-propelled flying to me, which he began doing around the third or fourth issue (I forget exactly when).  The same can be said of the Hulk, who was grounded for the first couple of issues and then began what for all intents and purposes was 'flying', by taking superhero powered massive jumps from one place to the next and to whatever height and/or distance he wanted, within limits.

Edited Monday at 04:24 PM by namisgr

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 12:17 PM, namisgr said:

Sounds like flying to me, which he began doing around the third or fourth issue (I forget exactly).  The same can be said of the Hulk, who was grounded for the first couple of issues and then began what for all intents and purposes was 'flying', by taking superhero powered massive jumps from one place to the next and to whatever height and/or distance he wanted, within limits.

Someone was certainly trying to include "flight" in the dynamic, in creative, non-flight, ways. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Jimmy Linguini]

is the rizzler part of the costco guys? Like I thought there were only two costco guys, how does the rizzler come into play? and how is he "the panther in black"?
He's the black panther? But he's one of the costco guys? its very confusing.

[Cat]

On 10/22/2024 at 2:08 AM, jimjum12 said:

...and don't mss!

GOD BLESS ...

-jmbo(a frend of jesus)

 

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

The only time that works in the world it's due to nepotism. 

I will admit I never truly agreed with it, despitw understanding the point. 

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 12:43 PM, Cat said:

The only time that works in the world it's due to nepotism. 

I will admit I never truly agreed with it, despitw understanding the point. 

That's another example of context from what I see. More than anything, I would see it as an allegory of the fairness and equality of God's love, despite how long one might take to arrive at it, and less of a lesson on how to reward workers. Kind of a grace versus works comparison. That, however, is my opinion  Thanks for discussing it with me, friend. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Cat]

On 10/22/2024 at 2:53 AM, jimjum12 said:

That's another example of context from what I see. More than anything, I would see it as an allegory of the fairness and equality of God's love, despite how long one might take to arrive at it, and less of a lesson on how to reward workers. Kind of a grace versus works comparison. That, however, is my opinion  Thanks for discussing it with me, friend. GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

Yeah, that's how I take it too. I just think it was a poor example, particularly given the amount of people who choose to take these things rather literally (although it doesn't temper their behaviour much, to be fair). Imperfect, one might say. 

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/21/2024 at 5:08 PM, jimjum12 said:

...and don't mss!

GOD BLESS ...

-jmbo(a frend of jesus)

 

20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire workers for his vineyard. 2 He agreed to pay them a denarius[a] for the day and sent them into his vineyard.

3 “About nine in the morning he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing. 4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’ 5 So they went.

“He went out again about noon and about three in the afternoon and did the same thing. 6 About five in the afternoon he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’

7 “‘Because no one has hired us,’ they answered.

“He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’

9 “The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius. 10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner. 12 ‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’

13 “But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius? 14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you. 15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’

16 “So the last will be first, and the first will be last.”

Luke 10:7

for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Which Stan seems to have thought applied only to him.

See also:

Mark 8:36 (KJV) 

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

As Bob Dylan so eloquently addressed the same topic, in 'Masters Of War':

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death will come soon
I'll follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave

'Til I'm sure that you're dead

 

Amen to that!

[jimjum12]

On 10/21/2024 at 1:28 PM, Albert Tatlock said:

Luke 10:7

for the labourer is worthy of his hire.

Which Stan seems to have thought applied only to him.

See also:

Mark 8:36 (KJV) 

For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

As Bob Dylan so eloquently addressed the same topic, in 'Masters Of War':

Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good?
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could?
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul

And I hope that you die
And your death will come soon
I'll follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand over your grave

'Til I'm sure that you're dead

 

Amen to that!

Wow. Hate much?

[Albert Tatlock]

On 10/21/2024 at 5:17 PM, namisgr said:

Sounds like hammer-propelled flying to me, which he began doing around the third or fourth issue (I forget exactly when).  The same can be said of the Hulk, who was grounded for the first couple of issues and then began what for all intents and purposes was 'flying', by taking superhero powered massive jumps from one place to the next and to whatever height and/or distance he wanted, within limits.

Yes, it was specified in the early days that Thor could only follow the trajectory of the hammer he had just flung, but eventually he seemed to be able to soar skyward without having to obey Newton's Laws of Motion.

Ditto the Hulk. There was a story in TTA, I remember, somewhere in the region of # 63, where he, just by physical exertion, was able to avoid the obstruction of a railroad bridge, which of course would be impossible under the laws of physics in our Universe.

But those laws pose no problem on a cheaply printed four colour page.