Stan Lee Lied - Your Handy Guide to Every Lie in the 'Origins of Marvel Comics' 11 11

[JollyComics]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:25 AM, VintageComics said:

Mods notified. 

For yourself. 

[sfcityduck]

On 10/14/2024 at 10:27 PM, JollyComics said:

Jack Kirby worked for Ben Copper briefly before he started working at Timely Comics AKA Marvel Comics.

Never heard that. Wonder what he did, But Kirby did not design the Spider-Man costume it was Ditko. And I heard the costume was only around in the 50s.

[ttfitz]

On 9/24/2024 at 11:43 PM, comicwiz said:

In case this was not made abundantly clear already, the screenshot shared is a reference point to a) the Kirby art appearing for sale, as this was the first/only opportunity people had to understand these even existed; b) the venues where they were sold; and c) it makes reference to them being from the Simon estate. That single screenshot was in fact shared so that it did not appear the question would be pulled out of thin air, but derived by a real and exisiting place on the internet where this conversation occurred. My impression is that you read something, either due to the person posting, or something in their choice of words, that you viewed in a similar way to the manner with which you mischaracterizated my intentions, and assumed wrongly that the question I was asking was anything more than what I'm describing it to be. The only result to reach here is that you should now have crystal clear clarity, and to drop the duplicitous and patronizing manner of saying you erred, and then continuing to pull at straws to justify your deplorable actions.

I'm still way behind in this thread - which I keep meaning to stop reading but can't - so this is probably of little import by now (if it ever was of any import), but I just wanted to say that I too read your message to suggest that the Simon family have possession of Kirby art seemed - to use a legal term - hinky. And I have no reason to be biased against you (although I will admit that I find your continued use of derogatory names such as "Flashman" and "Houseroy" tend to undercut your positions, IMO).

I accept that it wasn't your intention to suggest that, but I don't think it was an unreasonable reading of what was said.

[Prince Namor]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:24 PM, VintageComics said:

Just to be clear, the discussion initially started with the two of us disagreeing whether Stan had ANY input on Thor pre JIM #83 and you, based on an edited quote you provided of Stan's from Origins, maintained that Stan was crediting himself with giving Thor his hammer, which I thought was near impossible, since everyone knew Thor had a hammer.

I also put more emphasis on Stan possibly taking credit for flight and not the weapon.

Upon examining the quote in it's entirety as well as other evidence, it became clear that Stan wasn't taking credit for Thor's hammer, because everyone knew Thor had a hammer.

In fact, in Origins, Stan was taking credit for tying the hammer to flight, something Jack hadn't done previously even though he drew Thor more than once in prior books.

Additionally, I maintained the reasonable position that since there is no direct evidence proving Kirby came up with everything (your words), that it's hard to believe the editor had NO input in the direction of the character, and that Stan must have had SOME input in some way and very possible that Stan's offering of flight for Thor was reasonable, especially since flight had become an almost necessary super-hero trait by the 1960s.

The discussion has since morphed to Stan having no input in the 1st 3 issues. 

That's how I recollect it. 

Lee most likely had nothing to do with the first three appearances of Marvel's Thor.

I'm not aware of anything you've presented to disprove that. 

Whatever else you think I'm saying, based on cherry picking quotes is on you.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/15/2024 at 1:21 AM, jimjum12 said:

This reminds me of the CA month, Attack of the Assistant Editors, or some such. The whole month had books that were wordless. John Byrne, being the cut up that he was, did an Alpha Flight issue titled "Snow Blind." ...it was not only without lettering, but being in a blizzard, each panel was artless, just white.  GOD BLESS ...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

I never noticed that was an Assistant Editors Month issue.  I always thought it was Byrne just being cheeky and trying to see how much he could get away with.

[CGC Mike]

On 10/15/2024 at 12:52 AM, sfcityduck said:

On 10/14/2024 at 10:51 PM, thehumantorch said:

I've done my best to stay out of this thread because it's toxic but

 

On 10/14/2024 at 11:58 PM, Prince Namor said:

It doesn't have to be.

 

No. It didn't. 

And the last four or more pages prove that. I don't know if that's due to Mike's behind the curtain moderating or what, but the tone has changed for the better.

I do not think any moderation actions have been taken since the temporary lockdown of the thread.

[JollyComics]

On 10/15/2024 at 1:01 AM, sfcityduck said:

Never heard that. Wonder what he did, But Kirby did not design the Spider-Man costume it was Ditko. And I heard the costume was only around in the 50s.

I heard it few times before. We discussed about it here in a while ago while Stan Lee was alive. He was asked if that Spider-man costume inspired him or Jack Kirby told him about it.  Stan never answered or kept vaguely about it. The costume that was made in 1954 was long enough to inspire Timely Comics/Marvel Comics.  That company was only 10 miles away from Marvel Office.

Ben Cooper, Inc is now defunct since 1992.

Here is the information in 2015 - https://nypost.com/2015/07/14/did-stan-lee-steal-spider-man-from-a-brooklyn-costume-shop/

Yes we talked about it here. I remembered it well.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/15/2024 at 5:56 AM, JollyComics said:

I heard it few times before. We discussed about it here in a while ago while Stan Lee was alive. He was asked if that Spider-man costume inspired him or Jack Kirby told him about it.  Stan never answered or kept vaguely about it. The costume that was made in 1954 was long enough to inspire Timely Comics/Marvel Comics.  That company was only 10 miles away from Marvel Office.

Ben Cooper, Inc is now defunct since 1992.

Here is the information in 2015 - https://nypost.com/2015/07/14/did-stan-lee-steal-spider-man-from-a-brooklyn-costume-shop/

Yes we talked about it here. I remembered it well.

I never heard Kirby worked at Ben Cooper in the 1930s before he started at Timely. But, I don't think the Cooper costume was made until the 1950s so Kirby would not have seen it during his brief sojourn at the company over a decade earlier. Even if he did, Kirby didn't design the Spider-Man costume -- that was Ditko. Ditko could have seen the costume if it was on sale throughout the NY region at retailers. But Ditko never referenced it as an inspiration, and Ditko's philosophy towards creation (mainly that all creation is really re-creation) wouldn't have caused him to hide his inspirations I think. So it might have been an unconscious influence or just might have been coincidence. We'll never know now. All we can do is speculate.

[sfcityduck]

On 10/15/2024 at 6:01 AM, sfcityduck said:

I never heard Kirby worked at Ben Cooper in the 1930s before he started at Timely. But, I don't think the Cooper costume was made until the 1950s so Kirby would not have seen it during his brief sojourn at the company over a decade earlier. Even if he did, Kirby didn't design the Spider-Man costume -- that was Ditko. Ditko could have seen the costume if it was on sale throughout the NY region at retailers. But Ditko never referenced it as an inspiration, and Ditko's philosophy towards creation (mainly that all creation is really re-creation) wouldn't have caused him to hide his inspirations I think. So it might have been an unconscious influence or just might have been coincidence. We'll never know now. All we can do is speculate.

I see in the article the statement that: "but rumor has it that in the 1950s, Kirby worked briefly for the company." So that's a different story than he worked at the company before he joined Timely. And again, I've never seen Kirby ever reference it. And it doesn't really jive with the story Kirby told about Spider-Man coming from S&K. Again, we'll never know, but I trust Ditko's recollections more than Jack's. Ditko had a pretty clinical memory based on his telling of his involvement in the creation of Spider-Man.

[jimjum12]

On 10/15/2024 at 5:42 AM, Ken Aldred said:

I never noticed that was an Assistant Editors Month issue.  I always thought it was Byrne just being cheeky and trying to see how much he could get away with.

I'm told one of the main reasons he left Marvel was because Shooter leaked to the Fan Press that Byrne was raking in over 300K per year. He could thank Jack and Neal for that kind of check. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[jimjum12]

On 10/15/2024 at 6:52 AM, Deadstool said:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/'Nuff_Said

... my memory was off I suppose. I loved comics back then. I was a grown up, but still had a pull box every week. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[sfcityduck]

On 10/15/2024 at 6:09 AM, jimjum12 said:

I'm told one of the main reasons he left Marvel was because Shooter leaked to the Fan Press that Byrne was raking in over 300K per year. He could thank Jack and Neal for that kind of check. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

True. And Byrne deserved it. In the late 1970s to early 80s his work was some of the best ever done at Marvel. 

[Dr. Haydn]

On 10/15/2024 at 1:01 AM, sfcityduck said:

Never heard that. Wonder what he did, But Kirby did not design the Spider-Man costume it was Ditko. And I heard the costume was only around in the 50s.

I think I mentioned this a year ago on the "Stan, Jack and Steve--who did what" thread about a year ago, but of those three, only Jack Kirby had Halloween-age children when the Ben Cooper Spider-man costume came out in the mid-1950s. This is of course circumstantial evidence at best, but it gives Kirby a better reason to draw inspiration from the costume than Lee or Ditko. Still, a spider-themed character was nothing new in 1962. It was the characterization of Peter Parker and his supporting cast (Ditko plot, Lee dialogue) that made Spider-man unique at the time.

Edited October 15 by Dr. Haydn
typo

[sfcityduck]

On 10/15/2024 at 6:48 AM, Dr. Haydn said:

I think I mentioned this a year ago on the "Stan, Jack and Steve--who did what" thread about a year ago, but of those three, only Jack Kirby had Halloween-age children when the Ben Cooper Spider-man costume came out in the mid-1950s. This is of course circumstantial evidence at best, but it gives Kirby a better reason to draw inspiration from the costume than Lee or Ditko. Still, a spider-themed character was nothing new in 1962. It was the characterization of Peter Parker and his supporting cast (Ditko plot, Lee dialogue) that made Spider-man unique at the time.

Joe Simon also did and he is a strong candidate for the name Spider-Man. Did he Jack or Joe plagiarize the name from a costume? It’s possible. But since it’s not an original name (many pre-cursors) we’ll never know.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/15/2024 at 11:52 AM, Deadstool said:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/'Nuff_Said

Yup. Remember it fondly, as an avid John Byrne fan back then, admiring and paying for this example of inspired, minimalist genius.

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/15/2024 at 2:09 PM, jimjum12 said:

I'm told one of the main reasons he left Marvel was because Shooter leaked to the Fan Press that Byrne was raking in over 300K per year. He could thank Jack and Neal for that kind of check. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

 

On 10/15/2024 at 2:12 PM, sfcityduck said:

True. And Byrne deserved it. In the late 1970s to early 80s his work was some of the best ever done at Marvel. 

I agree. He was next level, no mere Joe Sketcher. And could write.

[JollyComics]

On 10/15/2024 at 9:01 AM, sfcityduck said:

Joe Simon also did and he is a strong candidate for the name Spider-Man. Did he Jack or Joe plagiarize the name from a costume? It’s possible. But since it’s not an original name (many pre-cursors) we’ll never know.

Now, you have expanded details from my post and Dr. Hayden’s post.

Why don’t you become another writer? You should be the excellent writer with great knowledge of this subjects here.

[jimjum12]

On 10/15/2024 at 10:15 AM, Ken Aldred said:

 

I agree. He was next level, no mere Joe Sketcher. And could write.

...and he got tons of ideas from Discover, Popular Mechanics, and GEO, and I, for one, appreciated the research. GOD BLESS ... 

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[Ken Aldred]

On 10/15/2024 at 3:50 PM, Deadstool said:

🤔

Not in the same league.

Clearly in the hack style of the infamous Joe Sketcher, an ‘artist’ that even Frank Robbins mocked.

[Zonker]

On 10/15/2024 at 10:56 AM, Ken Aldred said:

the infamous Joe Sketcher, 

I can see it now...

Some day you are going to write a book claiming you created Joe Sketcher^TM.  And on that day, I will write a book in response to TAKE YOU DOWN!