comicwiz Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 (edited) These 4 photos were sent to me a few weeks back. The person is in the UK. Sent the request through ComicVerify. He claims to have wanted to sell after finding it at a "charity shop." It immediately struck me as odd that the wear I was seeing didn't mesh with some of the other traits (near perfect light reflectivity along the entire length of the spine, being one of them). I asked for more photos, and at one point was going to arrange to have him bring it to @Flaming_Telepath to inspect in-hand on my behalf, because it looked very much like a facsimile cover, or one reproduced to show aging/wear. After making this recommendation, the person didn't want to do this, claimed it was going to cost him too much to make the trip. The alternative I warned him was that it was likely going to be rejected or be assigned an NG grade by CGC, and that he would likely incur greater costs to have to go that route. It is important to note that this was a referral from another UK friend, and based on that friendship, I was making some effort to offer the best advice I could given I was doing this via photo inspection alone. Admittedly, not knowing exactly what this was at the time, I did not like that this book was floating around out there. Regardless, he contacts me with new pictures this morning, telling me that his research shows this was a Folio facsmile. The updated photos revealed the comic has been banged up a little more since we first spoke, along with revealing a photo of the wrapping and cover inside the wrapping (purple tissue covering with silver seal). It would have been great if he had shown me that photo from the beginning, instead of saying, I think I might have a "big money book" and need an appraisal done. Seeing this printed with an aged paper appearance, wear & look, is only going to encourage this deceptive play of banging it up to look the part to unsuspecting eyes. Grading is hardly going to be the answer here because anyone trying their hand at duping won't take that route, and they know this will have more legs in a "let my pictures do the talking" age of online marketplace and feeBay. Not liking what I'm seeing from this Folio facsimile one bit. At least with the GRR, you knew how to look for certain traits that couldn't be replicated, even if someone produced a facsimile cover and used the GRR interiors. They could have just printed one to look new, and from the other threads (this Hulk 1 one in particular), those books do look to have been printed with covers not showing the kind of aged wear/appearance I'm seeing on this FF 1. If anyone has the Folio FF1, I'd really be interested to see it to compate, and see if this is what Folio meant by "meticulous facsimile." Edited September 22 by comicwiz Mmehdy 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 22 Author Share Posted September 22 This is what the Folio site shows: And the description: Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 22 Author Share Posted September 22 One of the last pics sent to me (timed around the point I commented my concerns on the inconsistencies with the 'aged wear" appearance not meshing with otherwise near perfect looking state of the actual cover wrap: Stefan_W 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan_W Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 These types of reproductions are a menace to the hobby. I believe this one is similar to some of the Action 1 reproductions where you have to bring a measuring tape with you to assess it since the pages in the contemporary version are very slightly smaller. But I dont have one in hand so I cant double check this on my own. comicwiz and Mmehdy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stock_rotation Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 Couldn't you use the image of the inside front cover as your baseline? That "aged wear" faded strip running through the coupon and the indicia would be a good verification test. When in doubt, ask for a picture of the IFC. If you see that faded strip, you know what you're looking at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 22 Author Share Posted September 22 (edited) On 9/22/2024 at 10:50 AM, stock_rotation said: Couldn't you use the image of the inside front cover as your baseline? That "aged wear" faded strip running through the coupon and the indicia would be a good verification test. When in doubt, ask for a picture of the IFC. If you see that faded strip, you know what you're looking at. I knew this was a facsimile cover, but it's standard appraising practice to have ancillary methods, which may include just getting back-up. Being the person lived 5500 km from me, having him check-in with a trusted dealer closer to him was just that - a person who I could guide to ensure what I was seeing was not an artifact of poor image capture, lighting or some unexplained anomaly. It never got to that point, but not for a lack of trying. When he contacted me this morning with updated information, and photos showing the books condition had changed, it made me consider posting this more as a public warning of what Folio Society has produced, and the ways it could deceive. Edited September 22 by comicwiz Dave2739 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver Surfer Posted September 22 Share Posted September 22 Pretty spectacular but not cheap. Larryw7 and Mmehdy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) That's the Folio FF 1. Edited September 23 by southern cross comicwiz and Mmehdy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 The photo of the front cover comes up way lighter then the facimilie in hand and the interior paper though newsprint doesn't feel like 60s news print when touched. comicwiz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 On 9/22/2024 at 7:50 AM, stock_rotation said: Couldn't you use the image of the inside front cover as your baseline? That "aged wear" faded strip running through the coupon and the indicia would be a good verification test. When in doubt, ask for a picture of the IFC. If you see that faded strip, you know what you're looking at. That looks thru the ad page isn't age wear, it's just the gloss shinning from the photo comicwiz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 If you really want to see something scary from Folio? That's from the Doctor Strange set. The 70s set from Marvel has a Giant size X-Men 1 but instead of a square bound spine. It's a stapled spine like a regular comic so it can't be mistaken. comicwiz and Larryw7 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 On 9/22/2024 at 11:21 AM, comicwiz said: I knew this was a facsimile cover, but it's standard appraising practice to have ancillary methods, which may include just getting back-up. Being the person lived 5500 km from me, having him check-in with a trusted dealer closer to him was just that - a person who I could guide to ensure what I was seeing was not an artifact of poor image capture, lighting or some unexplained anomaly. It never got to that point, but not for a lack of trying. When he contacted me this morning with updated information, and photos showing the books condition had changed, it made me consider posting this more as a public warning of what Folio Society has produced, and the ways it could deceive. There are probably already some reproductions or counterfeits sitting in slabs as originals. The owners will likely never know the difference. CGC has grown considerably over the past 24 years; the graders aren't all seasoned collectors like they were in the early days. It is naïve to believe that every fake will be caught. Some will slip through. It's the way of the world. Larryw7 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 23 Author Share Posted September 23 (edited) On 9/22/2024 at 8:31 PM, southern cross said: That's the Folio FF 1. Thanks for posting these photos! You can see they captured the aged paper effect, foxing, staining, dust shadowing, everything, and printed it to look aged in appearance. You're photos do two things - they better show the inconsitencies I noticed from the photos the other person took, and also, they confirm these characteristics of producing an aged appearance was done as part of their marketing claim of having produced a "meticulous facsimile." Edited September 23 by comicwiz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 23 Author Share Posted September 23 (edited) On 9/23/2024 at 7:08 AM, jimbo_7071 said: There are probably already some reproductions or counterfeits sitting in slabs as originals. The owners will likely never know the difference. CGC has grown considerably over the past 24 years; the graders aren't all seasoned collectors like they were in the early days. It is naïve to believe that every fake will be caught. Some will slip through. It's the way of the world. After the slab tampering scandal, I'm certain there are slabs floating around out there that do not contain the book inside the inner well that corresponds to the label. That said, I do believe the much greater risk of a reproduction or counterfeit being passed off as real is with selling books raw, as CGC graders would/should be able to determine a fake through an in-person inspection. I am not a fan of seeing "facsimile editions" being made with both aged wraps and interior pages, appearing to look the part of being an original, as shown in the examples shared above by myself, and those shared by @southern cross - allowing these to be produced without some marked indicator that they are reproductions somewhere on the book is a bad precedent. Edited September 23 by comicwiz jimbo_7071 and Jayman 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) On 9/23/2024 at 5:21 AM, comicwiz said: After the slab tampering scandal, I'm certain there are slabs floating around out there that do not contain the book inside the inner well that corresponds to the label. That said, I do believe the much greater risk of a reproduction or counterfeit being passed off as real is with selling books raw, as CGC graders would/should be able to determine a fake through an in-person inspection. I am not a fan of seeing "facsimile editions" being made with both aged wraps and interior pages, appearing to look the part of being an original, as shown in the examples shared above by myself, and those shared by @southern cross - allowing these to be produced without some marked indicator that they are reproductions somewhere on the book is a bad precedent. In hand they scream facimilies. The FF as I said when I took the pic come out whiter. The cover in hand is quite yellow looking at it. The covers are slightly thicker and the interior pages are not newsprint so are thicker. I'm hand it is slightly heavier then a standard 60s comic book. The staples are very shiny. Any seasoned collector and CGC grader who grades vintage will see this immediately. A few years ago I saw Folio books graded by CGC and were labeled Folio. They had buy it nows like $150 for 9.6 and $300 for 9.8. The only way you could pass them off as original would be to take pics and sell them online. The Strange Tales pics look really accurate to sell online as a original. But once again in hand they scream reproduction so it would be very hard to pass them off as original. Edited September 23 by southern cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
comicwiz Posted September 23 Author Share Posted September 23 On 9/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, southern cross said: The staples are very shiny. That is one of the characteristics I immediately noticed. On 9/23/2024 at 10:42 AM, southern cross said: The only way you could pass them off as original would be to take pics and sell them online. Right, and to be clear, that is what I meant when I'm talking about them selling raw - online, with the flattering angles, and "I let my pictures do the talking" type of listings where the seller discloses they know nothing about how to grade comics. southern cross 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) The only way you could pass a Folio FF1 is through a scam. And scams only work by playing on a victims greed. This isn't a how too, more a informative possibility for dealers and collectors. Get a bunch of 60s junker's. Low grade covers falling off and cover less books. DCs, Marvels, Archies, Duck books and that classic hard to sell Classics illustrated. Get a ton of those old yellow sticky comic bags and put half the books in them including the cover less with no boards and no sticky tape to hold the flaps down. Use the sticky bags to do that. Put them all in a old cardboard box and walk around the convention floor saying you have a box of comics to sell and you need $600 to fix your car. If anyone digging through sees the FF 1 and doesn't say anything then you know. If you're offered this be honest and say that book maybe worth more than $600 and when removed from the old bag it's clearly noticeable it's a reproduction. You won't get scammed. And this can be for any reproduction book. Be vigilant out there. And if you really want a original FF 1 then buy one graded by CGC. Edited September 23 by southern cross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 On 9/23/2024 at 8:04 AM, comicwiz said: That is one of the characteristics I immediately noticed. Right, and to be clear, that is what I meant when I'm talking about them selling raw - online, with the flattering angles, and "I let my pictures do the talking" type of listings where the seller discloses they know nothing about how to grade comics. Anyone selling a old expensive book raw online is a red flag to me. Why CGC was created to have books like this graded and checked for authenticity. I'll buy old books raw but I have to have them in hand to buy or I buy off a reputable dealer/ auction house and not off the net to a unknown seller from another state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbo_7071 Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 (edited) On 9/23/2024 at 11:17 AM, southern cross said: I'll buy old books raw but I have to have them in hand to buy or I buy off a reputable dealer/ auction house and not off the net to a unknown seller from another state. Yes, if a Craigslist comic dealer asks to meet you in the parking lot of an abandoned factory down by the waterfront at 11:30 at night, be careful—take a friend. And if you're paying more than $10K for the item, make sure the seller shows it to you before you hand him your cash, especially if his car has out-of-state plates. Edited September 23 by jimbo_7071 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southern cross Posted September 23 Share Posted September 23 On 9/23/2024 at 9:27 AM, jimbo_7071 said: Yes, if a Craigslist comic dealer asks to meet you in the parking lot of an abandoned factory down by the waterfront at 11:30 at night, be careful—take a friend. And if you're paying more than $10K for the item, make sure the seller shows it to you before you hand him your cash, especially if his car has out-of-state plates. That sounds even worse, think I'll stay in that evening and watch TV DR.X and jimbo_7071 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
