Heritage Auction and Restored GA comics

[SuperBird]

The Church books basically created the definition of a pedigree. Had they not been brought to light early on, the concept of pedigree collections in the hobby might not have developed or developed as early since the pedigree collections discovered later on were not as substantial in their scope.

 

The aura of owning a pedigree book has helped drive up the value of these books tremendously, so it could be argued that had the Church heirs held on to the books until now, they would not be able to realize the types of prices at which the books are currently traded.

 

I guess my point is that the growth of the "lore and legend" behind these books over the past two and a half decades helped them achieve their current market value. Their discovery in the 1970s and subsequent sales history helped shape the market we have today so if they had been discovered instead in 2006, they would have been released to an entirely different marketplace and probably not have achieved the same price levels.

 

agreed!

[goldust40]

great story, guys!

 

But yeah, you have to balance the sale with the fact that comics collecting was not nearly what it is today. If you want to play that game, there are tons of things you could have bought at the same time that would have paid off just as well 30 years later.

 

Name one that would've paid such dividends. Just one. Apart from buying shares in Microsoft before Gates got wealthy, I can't think of any.

 

Comics collecting may have been antideluvian back then compared to today's situation, but it had developed considerably enough to warrant the existence of nationwide Conventions, guides, and big money for key books. Even in the U.K.!!!

 

Comparing this scenario with anything else at all, be it the stock market, other collectibles markets, or the acquisition of any other collection is patently absurd.

 

True, but Chuck didn't make most of the "profit" that has come from the escalating values of these books over the years. He sold virtually all of them during the 1970s and 1980s at a small fraction of their value today, and given the astronomical jumps these books have seen in the last 15 years, I am sure that his return on the Church collection was not as good as some of the hotter stock investments he could have made in the late 1970s (like Berkshire Hathaway).

 

That's as maybe, but the absurdity here lies in comparing something which is akin to gambling and requires the benefit of hindsight (the stock market) and a dyed-in-the-wool, blue-chip, no-lose, no-brainer acquisition of perfect copies of every single Golden Age book ever published for cover price when a developed market for them palpably exists.

 

You were the one who posed the question, not me. You can even look up two quoted sections above your recent reply to confirm this.

 

I deny everything. All I was saying was that with the Church collection, no speculation was involved - Rozanski couldn't lose, and he knew it. Other collectibles at that time that have since multiplied hugely in value would then have been an unknown quantity.

[otherworldsj33]

If the buyer of the collection is feeling a bit of guilt after 30 years, then why not send a check to the Church family as some compensation?

[Norrin_Radd]

I finally read through this entire thread (offline). Great stuff! (except for the FFB/tth2 banter )

 

To address the initial question, I think acceptance of slightly restored GA comics has increased well, er, slightly. It's only a matter of time before collectors realize that by tarring all restored books with the same brush they are missing out on some great comics that are 99%+ original.

 

It would be interesting to see some data analysis on GPA sales of restored books across all levels (Slight/Moderate/Extensive).

[Norrin_Radd]

Another thought I had concerning the attitudes towards restoration is... perhaps newer/younger GA collectors see less of a stigma attached to owning comics with some slight resto. Especially on pricier comics that may be out of their price range in unrestored condition.

 

Maybe that's the reason behind the differing opinions across board members?

[Point Five]

Another thought I had concerning the attitudes towards restoration is... perhaps newer/younger GA collectors see less of a stigma attached to owning comics with some slight resto. Especially on pricier comics that may be out of their price range in unrestored condition.

 

Sounds like my cue.

 

I prefer unrestored books, but as an early GA collector on a budget, I am quite open to "bargain books" with slight to moderate resto. The screaming example that comes to mind is a Batman #13 I purchased via ebay 2 months ago...very nice-looking mid-grade book with no major tears or creases, but moderate restoration on the spine and a few replaced chips on the back cover. I'd call it an Apparent 5.0 to be conservative. OS values Batman #13 at $750 in 5.0; this book (which had the double-whammy of restoration stigma plus not-great photos) finished at $150.

 

I'm unlikely to buy SA or BA books with restoration regardless of price, but I'm quite willing to accept it (with! full! disclosure!) if it means I can afford a nice early GA book.

[Durden08]

[

I prefer unrestored books, but as an early GA collector on a budget, I am quite open to "bargain books" with slight to moderate resto ....

 

I'm unlikely to buy SA or BA books with restoration regardless of price, but I'm quite willing to accept it (with! full! disclosure!) if it means I can afford a nice early GA book.

 

I'm in the same camp you are. I wouldn't buy a restored Silver Age book as they are readily available and for the most part affordable in unrestored condition. Being a GA collector sometimes the choice is (a) a nice restored copy, or (B) no copy at all. For example, I'd love to have a copy of TEC #29 some day. The ONLY way I'd ever be able to afford a copy is in restored condition ... and thats OK with me.

[Point Five]

Thanks for the reply, Durden. I much agree... Detective #29 is an extreme example of a book I'd be happy with in any way, shape or form. Other than that one, which I take it is a grail since you singled it out, what GA books are you after?

[Durden08]

I mostly am interested in GA Action Comics from 7-40 plus all war covers. The earliest issues (if I ever purchase) will definitely have to be restored copies. Although I focus on Actions, I also have interests in TECs. I have no Timleys, but I would like to acquire a few as one of my collecting goals.

[Aman619]

I understand the idea of restored copies of books one cant afford unrestored or HG copies of... to a point. But, to me, a retsored copy is not a replacement for the real thing...its something else entirely. As a loose analogy, think of buying a car, You want a Porsche but do you settle for a Yugo since thats all you can afford in a car. Or, buy a beatup POS Porsche. Are either one a good enough substiture for an object you cannot afford? Why not just spend your hard earned money on buying the best you can, rather than a poor mans substitute of something whose price has sadly expanded beyond one's means??

[Norrin_Radd]

It's our perogative. We want the comics, not the condition. Not all of us can afford the best and have to settle with what we can afford. Besides, comics aren't a functional item like a car. They are an historical artifact.

[Timulty]

I would think having a resto Action 1 or Detective 27 is pretty much on the same playing field as have the unresto. It all depends on the level of resto.

[skybolt]

I understand the idea of restored copies of books one cant afford unrestored or HG copies of... to a point. But, to me, a retsored copy is not a replacement for the real thing...its something else entirely. As a loose analogy, think of buying a car, You want a Porsche but do you settle for a Yugo since thats all you can afford in a car. Or, buy a beatup POS Porsche.

 

Technically it's still a Porsche, but maybe with some Yugo parts.

[FFB]

I understand the idea of restored copies of books one cant afford unrestored or HG copies of... to a point. But, to me, a retsored copy is not a replacement for the real thing...its something else entirely. As a loose analogy, think of buying a car, You want a Porsche but do you settle for a Yugo since thats all you can afford in a car. Or, buy a beatup POS Porsche. Are either one a good enough substiture for an object you cannot afford? Why not just spend your hard earned money on buying the best you can, rather than a poor mans substitute of something whose price has sadly expanded beyond one's means??

 

A terrible analogy.

 

If someone is willing to pay $X for a VG copy of a GA key with grease pencil initials and some ink writing on the cover that looks like hell, why would that person not be willing to pay an equal amount for an apparent FN copy that started out as a VG and has minor color touch in an amount equal to the grease pencil and ink writing on the unrestored VG, and looks a hell of a lot better?

[Aman619]

It's our perogative. We want the comics, not the condition. Not all of us can afford the best and have to settle with what we can afford. Besides, comics aren't a functional item like a car. They are an historical artifact.

 

I cant argue with that. Sorry for talking like a pig. I just think that settleing for what we can afford IS what Im saying. Just buying a killer example of somethiung else rather than a pale substiture. Others make that choice, buying a HG Bronze key instead of a GA in Good for instance.

 

I knew the car analogy was a dog.

[non sequitur]

I would think having a resto Action 1 or Detective 27 is pretty much on the same playing field as have the unresto. It all depends on the level of resto.

 

I think I'm missing your point - are you saying that resto commentary in this string is less applicable to the mega keys? Maybe you can elaborate.

[Timulty]

What I am saying is that I think resto Mega Keys such as Action 1, Detective Comics 1 or Marvel Comics 1 are pretty much on the same playing field as a respective unresto depending on upon the level of resto. Very Slight pro resto on one of those keys vs unresto should be in the same price range. But they don't seem to go that way. Which is a shame. Eventually, much of the GA books are going to end up resto.

[action1kid]

Very Slight pro resto on one of those keys vs unresto should be in the same price range. But they don't seem to go that way.

 

Thats because they shouldnt be and sales consistently back this up.

[burntboy]

great story, guys!

 

But yeah, you have to balance the sale with the fact that comics collecting was not nearly what it is today. If you want to play that game, there are tons of things you could have bought at the same time that would have paid off just as well 30 years later.

 

Name one that would've paid such dividends. Just one. Apart from buying shares in Microsoft before Gates got wealthy, I can't think of any.

 

Comics collecting may have been antideluvian back then compared to today's situation, but it had developed considerably enough to warrant the existence of nationwide Conventions, guides, and big money for key books. Even in the U.K.!!!

 

Comparing this scenario with anything else at all, be it the stock market, other collectibles markets, or the acquisition of any other collection is patently absurd.

 

True, but Chuck didn't make most of the "profit" that has come from the escalating values of these books over the years. He sold virtually all of them during the 1970s and 1980s at a small fraction of their value today, and given the astronomical jumps these books have seen in the last 15 years, I am sure that his return on the Church collection was not as good as some of the hotter stock investments he could have made in the late 1970s (like Berkshire Hathaway).

 

That's as maybe, but the absurdity here lies in comparing something which is akin to gambling and requires the benefit of hindsight (the stock market) and a dyed-in-the-wool, blue-chip, no-lose, no-brainer acquisition of perfect copies of every single Golden Age book ever published for cover price when a developed market for them palpably exists.

 

It's only absurd because you know what happened in the 30 years after the collection was found. If I offered you 1000 mint condition Magic the Gathering cards and showed you a price guide for them, would you take them off my hands for 1/4 guide?

 

Along the same lines, I would not like to bet that a mint run of every bronze age book will be worth much in 30 years, etc.

 

i'm sure that by the time i get to the end of this thread this will have already been said again, but let's get one fact straight; the collection was purchased for NO WHERE NEAR 1/4 guide in the late seventies.

 

these books were purchased for 9cents each!!!

 

that's 9 cents for the action #1 and 9 cents for marvel mystery #1 and 9 cents for Captain America #1 and 9 cents for Tec 27 etc..........i'm sure given the overall condition that there probably wasn't a single book worth less than a couple of bucks. no matter what anyone says differently, the family let go of the greatest single original owner collection that will ever likely exist for next to nothing... and the proof is that these books were in immediate demand and many sold for unheard of multiples of guide. and i'm not even thinking of what the collection appreciated into, just what they were worth at the time.

 

of course it can all be rationalized away, but these facts (as i've come to understand them) are what they are...................

 

as has already been eloquently stated here, there was a palpable comic book back-market going on. Overstreet was in it's 6th or 7th annual edition. collectors had started to hoard books as far back as the mid sixties. and, quite frankly, i'll guess i'll always have a problem with this story...................

[goldust40]

great story, guys!

 

But yeah, you have to balance the sale with the fact that comics collecting was not nearly what it is today. If you want to play that game, there are tons of things you could have bought at the same time that would have paid off just as well 30 years later.

 

Name one that would've paid such dividends. Just one. Apart from buying shares in Microsoft before Gates got wealthy, I can't think of any.

 

Comics collecting may have been antideluvian back then compared to today's situation, but it had developed considerably enough to warrant the existence of nationwide Conventions, guides, and big money for key books. Even in the U.K.!!!

 

Comparing this scenario with anything else at all, be it the stock market, other collectibles markets, or the acquisition of any other collection is patently absurd.

 

True, but Chuck didn't make most of the "profit" that has come from the escalating values of these books over the years. He sold virtually all of them during the 1970s and 1980s at a small fraction of their value today, and given the astronomical jumps these books have seen in the last 15 years, I am sure that his return on the Church collection was not as good as some of the hotter stock investments he could have made in the late 1970s (like Berkshire Hathaway).

 

That's as maybe, but the absurdity here lies in comparing something which is akin to gambling and requires the benefit of hindsight (the stock market) and a dyed-in-the-wool, blue-chip, no-lose, no-brainer acquisition of perfect copies of every single Golden Age book ever published for cover price when a developed market for them palpably exists.

 

It's only absurd because you know what happened in the 30 years after the collection was found. If I offered you 1000 mint condition Magic the Gathering cards and showed you a price guide for them, would you take them off my hands for 1/4 guide?

 

Along the same lines, I would not like to bet that a mint run of every bronze age book will be worth much in 30 years, etc.

 

i'm sure that by the time i get to the end of this thread this will have already been said again, but let's get one fact straight; the collection was purchased for NO WHERE NEAR 1/4 guide in the late seventies.

 

these books were purchased for 9cents each!!!

 

that's 9 cents for the action #1 and 9 cents for marvel mystery #1 and 9 cents for Captain America #1 and 9 cents for Tec 27 etc..........i'm sure given the overall condition that there probably wasn't a single book worth less than a couple of bucks. no matter what anyone says differently, the family let go of the greatest single original owner collection that will ever likely exist for next to nothing... and the proof is that these books were in immediate demand and many sold for unheard of multiples of guide. and i'm not even thinking of what the collection appreciated into, just what they were worth at the time.

 

of course it can all be rationalized away, but these facts (as i've come to understand them) are what they are...................

 

as has already been eloquently stated here, there was a palpable comic book back-market going on. Overstreet was in it's 6th or 7th annual edition. collectors had started to hoard books as far back as the mid sixties. and, quite frankly, i'll guess i'll always have a problem with this story...................

 

Exactly. Finally someone gets my argument!!!