Heritage Auction and Restored GA comics

[The Black Hand ®]

I keep in touch with many Golden Age collectors and I'm not detecting any increase in acceptance of restored Golden Age books of any tier. They have their place in the hobby, and that place is at a fairly low percentage of urnestored guide. If one wants to look ahead at the upcoming Heritage Auction, that's cool. If the books do better, that doesn't necessarily mean there is an uptick in their acceptance. I think it will take a few auctions to begin to see any trends. Of course, I am biased. I have many Golden Age books with slight restoration (usually glue on the spine or such) and I would like very much to see an increase in prices.

 

I agree. Whenever I hear people talking about collectors accepting restored books, it makes me think that, besides being wishful thinking, some of these people might have a lot of restored books they want to move. Restored books need to be priced accordingly. I've seen book restored by Susan Cicccione and they look restored. They don't look real. The cover paper feels twice as thick as unrestored books. The white looks too white. I'm afraid that the restored stigma is going to always be around. I no longer send in books to be restored. It's just not worth it, unless you're the restorer.

[action1kid]

I agree with the Black Hands Opinion.

[Aman619]

I keep in touch with many Golden Age collectors and I'm not detecting any increase in acceptance of restored Golden Age books of any tier. They have their place in the hobby, and that place is at a fairly low percentage of urnestored guide. If one wants to look ahead at the upcoming Heritage Auction, that's cool. If the books do better, that doesn't necessarily mean there is an uptick in their acceptance. I think it will take a few auctions to begin to see any trends. Of course, I am biased. I have many Golden Age books with slight restoration (usually glue on the spine or such) and I would like very much to see an increase in prices.

 

I agree. Whenever I hear people talking about collectors accepting restored books, it makes me think that, besides being wishful thinking, some of these people might have a lot of restored books they want to move. Restored books need to be priced accordingly. I've seen book restored by Susan Cicccione and they look restored. They don't look real. The cover paper feels twice as thick as unrestored books. The white looks too white. I'm afraid that the restored stigma is going to always be around. I no longer send in books to be restored. It's just not worth it, unless you're the restorer.

 

thats a bit of a generalization, dont you think? Do ALL of Susans books look so heavily restored? It woudl obviously depend on just what had to be done based on the original condition. If a book is beat up enough, yeah its gonna look pretty 'made-up'.

[rob_react]

I don't think we're really talking about heavily restored books here, are we? I kind of assumed we were talking about books with less work than the Frankenbooks you guys are describing. I mean, no matter who is doing the restoration a book with a tear sealed and a spot of color touch isn't going to have a cover twice the thickness of a regular book (or whatever.)

[FFB]

We've talked about restoration values before. My belief is that a restored book should sell for an amount equal to the pre-restoration value of the book, plus the reasonable value of the restoration services performed. So if you have an Action #1 in FR/GD condition with missing pieces, let's say for the sake of argument that the book was worth $30k before the resto. Then let's assume the book is restored to apparent VF by Susan Cicconi-Killiany at a cost of $4k. Under this system, the book would be worth $34k. For resto work that is done extremely well, or for a book with one major defect that is easily and cheaply remedied by simple resto techniques, you could adjust the value upward by 10-20 percent.

 

This system would place a realistic value on a restored book using relatively objective criteria, rather than by arbitrarily assigning a ‘‘percentage of unrestored guide'' value to a book based on vague notions of whether a book has extensive or slight resto. It would also balance the competing considerations of scarcity of a book in high grade vs. the collector's interest in owning a presentable copy. It would accomplish this by preventing a restored book from obtaining the lofty prices that high grade unrestored copies get, while not penalizing books that started out in collectible condition and had professional work done to them. And if a book (for example, the Marvel Comics #1 app. CGC 9.4 that sold in SD this year for $110k or the Church copy of More Fun #52) started out in high grade to begin with and had only the most minor, unnecessary work performed, it would recognize that such a book started out as a pristine copy and would value it accordingly.

 

Well what percentage of a Totally unrestored book do you think a book with slight resto should get? 90%?, 70%/ 50%? of a totally unrestored books value?[ajusted for grade

[jbcomicbox]

JB, Let me add: I believe you look at the artform first, admiring the ascetics, marveling at the handiwork of the restorer/conservator who often has the ability to return the paper back to the days when the book first hit the stores. If I may be a bit presumptuious I suspect you are perplexed that others can't see what you see?

 

 

No, I would never presume to have people think like me----it would be frightening.

 

Remember when I started this thread, I was addressing MINIMALLY restored books. I am not intending to discuss any other more elaborate restoration. That subject has been beat to death.

(I AM bemused by 'blue label' books that have had 'work done of them' but by any other standard are "restored", but got the all impotant 'blue" label).

 

What my current question is what the view of others is as to MINIMAL restoration....seal, small c.t. or glue. Does it carry the same Scarlet R stigma as it did in the past several years? Yes, I did believe and do believe that 'minimal' restoration (and I mean minimal) on GA books is too extreme. That is only my opinion. That was why I asked the question of others in view of the books being offered in the Heritage auction. We shall see how they do. An empirical test if there ever was one.

 

My initial inquiry was what was the opinion of others and I have found the feed-back interesting. Of course, minimally restored books are not the same as "unrestored" books (unless we get into the word game of non-additive repair). But the mere fact that with some larsons and mile highs garnered a blue label (and now under cgc the same label) was a grading/business decion taken not to financially slam these books which were otherwise gorgeous

 

I have been collecting for over thirty years, so indeed I may have a different prospective. All I was getting at is that it will be interesting to see how the 'minimally' restored books do in the upcoming auction because the book title and numbers are so 'collectible'.

 

Frankly, if someone wants to knock off 25% or more for a GA book with a spine seal, I would view it as a great deal in MY eyes. Mimimal restoration would not bother me. (But that is me) I do not denigrate those who have to consider the financial input of books with restoration. You gotta take it in to account. I have only been trying to initiate a discussion(as I have in the past) that all restoration is not the same, and consequently does not have the same impact on "value or collectiblity".

 

Here is the question to ask me. "If I had it all over to do again would I have had de-acidication, tape removal, chip fill (singular) or other such MINOR 'restoration' performed?" The answer would be "No". Why? Because of the very conversation that is ongoing. Only, the books that needed significant "help" would I have done.

 

Oh----back in the days some considered some minor restoration as "enlightened conservation",

 

When i did have stuff done, it was done with exceptional skill by Sarill, Ciccone (his disciple) or the Wilson brothers,,,,,

 

In closing...."Different strokes for different folks"

 

Happy Holidays to all!!

 

Jon

[action1kid]

There are examples where books with very minor work have done well[price wise]

All Star 3 [mile high] and the more fun 52[mile high] come to mind.Each recieved well over 100k,well over 100k a few years back

[Aman619]

I don't think we're really talking about heavily restored books here, are we? I kind of assumed we were talking about books with less work than the Frankenbooks you guys are describing. I mean, no matter who is doing the restoration a book with a tear sealed and a spot of color touch isn't going to have a cover twice the thickness of a regular book (or whatever.)

 

yes, we are. But I was responding to a criticism of Susans work as heavyhanded... I was not commenting on whether restored books are getting better reception or not of late. BUT - - now that you asked, while I havent bought any, and dont plan too, I might if I saw one that had MINIMAL work at a great price. It might be characterized as 'insurance' on my part should things really change in PLODs favor in th efuture. And, Ill admit that having been a collector who pissses on ANY book with ANY work done to it, I can now see my way to sifferentiating the ones with one TINY dot of work etc. Especially if it could be removed leaving a sweet book otherwise.

[action1kid]

I might if I saw one that had MINIMAL work at a great price.

The key is [at a great price] and i would too for minimal resto.

I would NOT pay a premium of any kind for a book with even the slightest bit of work.I feel that is reserved for Totally unrestored books only.

Strictly my own opinion for myself.Im not trying to press my views on to anybody.

[The Black Hand ®]

I don't have a problem with mimimally restored books. I don't have a problem with books that have a lot of restoration. They just should be priced accordingly.By the way....Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to everyone everywhere. To all of you on these boards and especially to all our service people overseas. I've been there and it can be very lonely and very tough.Come home real soon.

[lou_fine]

There are examples where books with very minor work have done well[price wise]

All Star 3 [mile high] and the more fun 52[mile high] come to mind.Each recieved well over 100k,well over 100k a few years back

 

A1K;

 

Can't remember the details behind the All-Star #3. The Church copy of More Fun #52 was indeed restored, but was still blessed with the blue label by CGC. The colour of the label is the main reason why the book was still able to sell for a multiple to guide.

 

Not sure if this book would be able to sell for the same price nowadays since collectors are a lot more knowledgeable about the details of restoration, and would not be simply blinded by the colour of the label like before when CGC first started up.

[lou_fine]

John.

I do not see where the tide has turned on restored books.I hear dealers saying it,but i dont see the sales supporting it.That fine 6.0 Detective 27 with slight resto in Heritages next auction will be a very good example.If that book was a totally unrestored 6.0 it would probably go for 145k to 160k.[it would get over guide] But with the slight resto im willing to bet that it comes in between 60 to 85k.I dont know wheather you consider that price an improvement in acceptance or not of restored books[i think not] S o we will see some more evidence in heritages next auction.I hope your correct but i just dont see it happening.I hear some of you guys saying restored is making a comback,but were? What factual sales are you using to support that claim?

 

A1K;

 

Wow, based upon your price estimates here, that does indeed respresent a pretty big price improvement or acceptance for restored books. Since a Fine 6.0 unrestored copy of 'Tec #27 guides for slightly less than $95K, your price range estimate of $60K to $85K sounds pretty agressive for a restored book.

 

This works out to selling price of almost 65% to 90% of guide. This indeed does look like a steep increase over a few years ago when restored books were generally going for anywhere from 20% of guide to only 40% of guide depending upon the book and the extent / quality of the work.

 

Sounds to like you are agreeing with JB since your price estimates would generally represent an improving discount to guide for restored books over what they were a few years ago. Maybe it's time for you to start picking up some of these restored beauties before it's too late.

[nearmint]

There's certainly been a greater acceptance on my part. I've never wanted restored books in my collection. But, this year, I picked up two PLODs, Fighting Yank #7 and Startling #24, both great books that are tough to find. I'll happily buy more PLODs if the price is reasonable.

[The Black Hand ®]

I know that if the one remaining book I need to fill my Top Notch run was available in restored condition, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.... for a drastically reduced price.

[Forbush-Man]

I know that if the one remaining book I need to fill my Top Notch run was available in restored condition, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.... for a drastically reduced price.

 

I'll wager you wouldn't hesitate to buy it if it were just reduced. I know if I'm completing a run of GA books & can't find the last one unrestored, I'd be happy to take a slightly restored book. If an unrestored copy ever came along, I'd buy it and flip the restored.

[shapip]

Action1Kid,

According to gpanalysis, the slightly restored 6.0 tec 27 up at heritage sold for $36K two years ago. I'm curious why you think it will get $60-85K now. That would be about a 2x increase.

[FFB]

Yeah, but drastically reduced from what? From the value in unrestored grade? Unless it was a high grade copy already that had slight work done, that's always going to be the case. What is changing is that restored books aren't necessarily selling at a discount to their pre-restoration value, which was often the case in the last six years.

 

I know that if the one remaining book I need to fill my Top Notch run was available in restored condition, I wouldn't hesitate to buy it.... for a drastically reduced price.

[Aman619]

John.

I do not see where the tide has turned on restored books.I hear dealers saying it,but i dont see the sales supporting it.That fine 6.0 Detective 27 with slight resto in Heritages next auction will be a very good example.If that book was a totally unrestored 6.0 it would probably go for 145k to 160k.[it would get over guide] But with the slight resto im willing to bet that it comes in between 60 to 85k.I dont know wheather you consider that price an improvement in acceptance or not of restored books[i think not] S o we will see some more evidence in heritages next auction.I hope your correct but i just dont see it happening.I hear some of you guys saying restored is making a comback,but were? What factual sales are you using to support that claim?

 

A1K;

 

Wow, based upon your price estimates here, that does indeed respresent a pretty big price improvement or acceptance for restored books. Since a Fine 6.0 unrestored copy of 'Tec #27 guides for slightly less than $95K, your price range estimate of $60K to $85K sounds pretty agressive for a restored book.

 

This works out to selling price of almost 65% to 90% of guide. This indeed does look like a steep increase over a few years ago when restored books were generally going for anywhere from 20% of guide to only 40% of guide depending upon the book and the extent / quality of the work.

 

Sounds to like you are agreeing with JB since your price estimates would generally represent an improving discount to guide for restored books over what they were a few years ago. Maybe it's time for you to start picking up some of these restored beauties before it's too late.

 

Lou, your argument hangs on calculations based on Guide prices. But for Tec 27, that isnt the way to go. A1K said a 6.0 copy would sell for 145 to 160K while you add that it Guides for only 95K That accounts for the discrepency in %s of guide a restored copy might sell for. A1Ks numbers suggest the restored copy would sell for 50% of an unrestored copy.

[comicdonna]

I sold this one this year for $555 I took a loss, but it could have been worse. I bought it raw advertised as UNRESTORED 6.5 It came back 6.5 Slight A with a small amount of glue on the spine of the cover.

[ronm3-migration]

I dont see the market getting better for restored books anytime soon. The only restored books that seem to do decently are keys. I myself would not buy a restored book even if it was a key. I have thought about doing it numerous times but it would just eat at me knowing it was restored.