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Did everyone else get their Heritage catalog yesterday?

Started by Norrin_Radd,

169 posts in this topic

tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
If they bid on auctions they conduct. Who's to stop them from bidding on their own inventory? Just the appearance of inpropriety can kill a business. Apparently, for Heritage it doesn't.

Bidding on their own inventory is shill bidding, and is not only inappropriate but is illegal. Bidding on auctions they conduct, if they don't own the item, is not illegal as far as I know. In all seriousness, I don't believe they bid on their own inventory. Why would they need to, all they need to do is set a reserve to protect themselves.

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Timulty

Timulty

Posted
Posted
If they bid on auctions they conduct. Who's to stop them from bidding on their own inventory? Just the appearance of inpropriety can kill a business. Apparently, for Heritage it doesn't.

Bidding on their own inventory is shill bidding, and is not only inappropriate but is illegal. Bidding on auctions they conduct, if they don't own the item, is not illegal as far as I know. In all seriousness, I don't believe they bid on their own inventory. Why would they need to, all they need to do is set a reserve to protect themselves.

 

Controlling the market on comic books that they own?

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Bullet123

Bullet123

Posted
Posted
If they bid on auctions they conduct. Who's to stop them from bidding on their own inventory? Just the appearance of inpropriety can kill a business. Apparently, for Heritage it doesn't.

Bidding on their own inventory is shill bidding, and is not only inappropriate but is illegal. Bidding on auctions they conduct, if they don't own the item, is not illegal as far as I know. In all seriousness, I don't believe they bid on their own inventory. Why would they need to, all they need to do is set a reserve to protect themselves.

 

Controlling the market on comic books that they own?

 

Whether they own the book or not, the reserve is plain and simple. I do not understand the bashing of Heritage regarding this. They tell you plain and simple, when and if there are reserves they will be posted on XX date. It does not get any clearer than that. What are they hiding? nothing? They keep an archive of hi-res scans so you can look and see if that particular issue has ever sold before and what it sold for. They give you access to GPA, which gives you real time market data on that particular issue in that grade. What the heck else do you want. Them to buy the book for you and give it to you. I have been involved in a number of high end collectibles over the years and have dealt with many of the largest auction houses in the world and noone is more forthcoming with info for potential buyers than they are.

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ArAich

ArAich

Posted
Posted

Got mine today...the biggest shocker.... 893scratchchin-thumb.gif

 

<<<<<<<<<drum roll>>>>>>>>>>>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Only a small hype job for Frazetta's "Masaih Warrior" painting.... 893whatthe.gif

 

819007295o.jpg

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Norrin_Radd

Norrin_Radd

Posted
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That's if they do that on books other than their own. If they do, great. But an auction house that does that is just shill bidding.

What makes you think Heritage bids on its own inventory? I agree with you that would be wrong, and illegal, but I have no reason to think they do that.

 

Did you miss this? confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

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tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

Maybe what's confusing everyone is the loose terminology. When he says "our sales", I believe he means auctions conducted by Heritage of consignors' books (i.e., books not owned by Heritage). This fits in with the very next statement, where he refers to "consignors" requesting otherwise.

 

As stated above, I have no doubt that Heritage does this, and I have no problems with it. From a seller's perspective, I could give a 893censored-thumb.gif whether the buyer of my book, who has met my reserve price, is Heritage, one of their employees or Joe Schmoe. The money all looks the same to me.

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Timulty

Timulty

Posted
Posted

He didn't say that Heritage employees don't bid on books owned by Heritage.

 

 

Thank you for making this my 4000th post. Grading appreciated all of the inspiring and spirited discussions on the boards since I joined. grin.gif

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

Maybe what's confusing everyone is the loose terminology. When he says "our sales", I believe he means auctions conducted by Heritage of consignors' books (i.e., books not owned by Heritage). This fits in with the very next statement, where he refers to "consignors" requesting otherwise.

 

As stated above, I have no doubt that Heritage does this, and I have no problems with it. From a seller's perspective, I could give a 893censored-thumb.gif whether the buyer of my book, who has met my reserve price, is Heritage, one of their employees or Joe Schmoe. The money all looks the same to me.

 

Jees, wouldn't it be great for the marketplace if eBay conducted auctions this way. Uh, no I wasn't shill bidding, I was just really trying to win one of my consignors books. Looks very bad, even if it does benefit the seller.

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tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

Maybe what's confusing everyone is the loose terminology. When he says "our sales", I believe he means auctions conducted by Heritage of consignors' books (i.e., books not owned by Heritage). This fits in with the very next statement, where he refers to "consignors" requesting otherwise.

 

As stated above, I have no doubt that Heritage does this, and I have no problems with it. From a seller's perspective, I could give a 893censored-thumb.gif whether the buyer of my book, who has met my reserve price, is Heritage, one of their employees or Joe Schmoe. The money all looks the same to me.

 

Jees, wouldn't it be great for the marketplace if eBay conducted auctions this way. Uh, no I wasn't shill bidding, I was just really trying to win one of my consignors books. Looks very bad, even if it does benefit the seller.

As long as eBay, or Heritage, or whoever, is a bona fide buyer who will pay me if they actually win, I have no problem with it. confused-smiley-013.gif

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Timulty

Timulty

Posted
Posted
He didn't say that Heritage employees don't bid on books owned by Heritage.

Christo_pull_hair.gif It's implied!

 

Excuse me but to me it seems like a dodge to avoid the issue. Get frustrated all you want. It isn't keeping me from bidding on the auction but it does keep me from raising my bids.

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esquirecomics

esquirecomics

Posted
Posted

Unfortunately, for whatever reason, these perceived "shill" bids that Heritage makes on books in its own auctions (whether owned by them or not, may be no distinction), is lawful under Texas law, at least per my understanding (can't say I've really researched it).

 

As long as Heritage is simply pushing bids up to meet a set reserve, I have no significant problem with it though it kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth. If they are bidding in order to push the price up while the item is "live", then I have a BIG problem. But I don't believe it is clear that they do that, unless someone knows to the contrary.

 

The bigger issue, as BlazingBob mentioned in the other Heritage thread, is that it would be really nice if we could easily tell which of the lots were owned by Heritage versus consignments.

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

Maybe what's confusing everyone is the loose terminology. When he says "our sales", I believe he means auctions conducted by Heritage of consignors' books (i.e., books not owned by Heritage). This fits in with the very next statement, where he refers to "consignors" requesting otherwise.

 

As stated above, I have no doubt that Heritage does this, and I have no problems with it. From a seller's perspective, I could give a 893censored-thumb.gif whether the buyer of my book, who has met my reserve price, is Heritage, one of their employees or Joe Schmoe. The money all looks the same to me.

 

Jees, wouldn't it be great for the marketplace if eBay conducted auctions this way. Uh, no I wasn't shill bidding, I was just really trying to win one of my consignors books. Looks very bad, even if it does benefit the seller.

As long as eBay, or Heritage, or whoever, is a bona fide buyer who will pay me if they actually win, I have no problem with it. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Ok, you're thinking like a seller. Now think of it like this...you are bidding on a a book you've wanted for awhile from me. Say it's Doctor Strange #169 cgc 9.8 with white pages. I start it out at 99 cents with a $900 reserve. You really want this so you put a max bid of $1200 in. A bit above market, but like I said you really want that book. Now, someone who works for me comes in and bids it up to $1190 making you the winner for your $1200 and just say, no other bidder went as high as the $900 reserve other than you and my employee. Now, if you found out that the other bidder that cost you an extra $300 was affiliated with me, would you still feel the same way and have no problem with it?

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Timulty

Timulty

Posted
Posted
Per Jim Halperin himself...

 

"Yes, we do allow employees to bid in our sales, except in very rare instances where the consignor (foolishly) requests otherwise. Our job is to create an honest playing field, not to hold down the prices for the benefit of bidders who prefer less competition."

Maybe what's confusing everyone is the loose terminology. When he says "our sales", I believe he means auctions conducted by Heritage of consignors' books (i.e., books not owned by Heritage). This fits in with the very next statement, where he refers to "consignors" requesting otherwise.

 

As stated above, I have no doubt that Heritage does this, and I have no problems with it. From a seller's perspective, I could give a 893censored-thumb.gif whether the buyer of my book, who has met my reserve price, is Heritage, one of their employees or Joe Schmoe. The money all looks the same to me.

 

Jees, wouldn't it be great for the marketplace if eBay conducted auctions this way. Uh, no I wasn't shill bidding, I was just really trying to win one of my consignors books. Looks very bad, even if it does benefit the seller.

As long as eBay, or Heritage, or whoever, is a bona fide buyer who will pay me if they actually win, I have no problem with it. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

Ok, you're thinking like a seller. Now think of it like this...you are bidding on a a book you've wanted for awhile from me. Say it's Doctor Strange #169 cgc 9.8 with white pages. I start it out at 99 cents with a $900 reserve. You really want this so you put a max bid of $1200 in. A bit above market, but like I said you really want that book. Now, someone who works for me comes in and bids it up to $1190 making you the winner for your $1200 and just say, no other bidder went as high as the $900 reserve other than you and my employee. Now, if you found out that the other bidder that cost you an extra $300 was affiliated with me, would you still feel the same way and have no problem with it?

 

I couldn't have used a better scenario, myself. thumbsup2.gif

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BlackHeartedDwarf-migratio

BlackHeartedDwarf-migratio

Posted
Posted
Bidding on their own inventory is shill bidding, and is not only inappropriate but is illegal. Bidding on auctions they conduct, if they don't own the item, is not illegal as far as I know.

It's hard to believe that eBay actually "gets" something that Heritage doesn't. And no matter how anyone tries to spin it...Heritage shill bidding on their own auctions is wrong!!!

 

Shill Bidding is bidding that artificially increases an item’s price or apparent desirability, or bidding by individuals with a level of access to the seller’s item information not available to the general Community. Shill Bidding is prohibited on eBay.

 

Because family members, roommates and employees of sellers have a level of access to item information which is not available to the general Community, they are not permitted to bid on items offered by the seller -- even if their sole intent is to purchase the item. Family members, roommates or employees may purchase items from a seller without violating this policy simply by using purchase options -- such as Buy It Now -- which do not involve bidding"

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tth2

tth2

Posted
Posted
Ok, you're thinking like a seller. Now think of it like this...you are bidding on a a book you've wanted for awhile from me. Say it's Doctor Strange #169 cgc 9.8 with white pages. I start it out at 99 cents with a $900 reserve. You really want this so you put a max bid of $1200 in. A bit above market, but like I said you really want that book. Now, someone who works for me comes in and bids it up to $1190 making you the winner for your $1200 and just say, no other bidder went as high as the $900 reserve other than you and my employee. Now, if you found out that the other bidder that cost you an extra $300 was affiliated with me, would you still feel the same way and have no problem with it?

How is that the same? It's YOUR book, and you got one of YOUR employees (and it could be a relative, friend or a stranger, if you asked or instructed them to do so), to bid the book up on me. Bottom line: you shilled one of your own books, because you artificially and intentionally drove the price up on me. I never said it was acceptable for Heritage, or one of their employees, to shill up a book owned by Heritage. In fact, I said it would be illegal. confused-smiley-013.gif

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october

october

Posted
Posted
Ok, you're thinking like a seller. Now think of it like this...you are bidding on a a book you've wanted for awhile from me. Say it's Doctor Strange #169 cgc 9.8 with white pages. I start it out at 99 cents with a $900 reserve. You really want this so you put a max bid of $1200 in. A bit above market, but like I said you really want that book. Now, someone who works for me comes in and bids it up to $1190 making you the winner for your $1200 and just say, no other bidder went as high as the $900 reserve other than you and my employee. Now, if you found out that the other bidder that cost you an extra $300 was affiliated with me, would you still feel the same way and have no problem with it?

How is that the same? It's YOUR book, and you got one of YOUR employees (and it could be a relative, friend or a stranger, if you asked or instructed them to do so), to bid the book up on me. Bottom line: you shilled one of your own books, because you artificially and intentionally drove the price up on me. I never said it was acceptable for Heritage, or one of their employees, to shill up a book owned by Heritage. In fact, I said it would be illegal. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

True, but you are splitting a pretty fine hair. Heritage and its employees have a vested financial interest in seeing books go for top dollar, which is obviously helped by insiders bidding on their auctions. Heritage gets a bigger commission, a happier seller, and some nice padded statistics to include on their homepage every time one of their employees bids up a book under their umbrella. Bottom line, they have a horse in the race and should avoid things that give off the appearance of impropriety.

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