Silver Age Certificates of Pedigree Authenticity

[glasgap]

I note the eBay listing of Journey into Mystery 86, CGC NM+ 9.6, Massachusetts copy. The seller states that the Massachusetts certificate of pedigree authenticity will be supplied.

 

I own 8 pedigree/named CGC books (4 x Northland, 1 x Mass, 1 x PC, 2 x Boston) yet only two of these (Northlands) came with the certificate.

 

A few questions for those in the know.

 

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

For those that do, where would or should those certificates be. For example, my CGCed Mass copy of Tales of Suspense 48 which I bought off Pedigree, would the certificate be with CGC or the seller. If there was never a certificate, how did CGC know it was a/the Mass copy?

 

For the provenance of a pedigree book, it is important to have the certificate if it exists?

 

Regards

 

Alan

[Silver Surfer]

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

I don't believe so as there has been cases where CGC's pedigree verification process has been proven to be questionable at times. I believe Equirecomics had a GA book that was labelled as pedigree (Larson?) but in actual fact was not.

[namisgr]

The JIM 86 is an easy one to trace for provenance. It is owned and being sold by Marnin Rosenberg, the dealer who discovered and first marketed the Mass collection. Having bought Mass books from Marnin in the nineties, I am unaware of any certificate and, if there is one now, it is a recent creation of Marnin's. For the one Mass book I've had encapsulated, I included a copy of the original purchase letter I sent to Marnin, and it was deemed enough by CGC to obtain the Mass designation on the label. Same deal with the Pacific Coast books I've had encapsulated. As long as ownership of a book can be traced back to the founder-dealer, CGC seems satisfied to grant the pedigree designation.

[blowout]

 

 

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

Some pedigree books have certificates of authenticity (eg Winnipeg) and some don't (eg White Mountain, Western Penn). Of those that don't, there is usually a particular feature of the book that can be used to determine it's provenance.

[namisgr]

 

 

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

Some pedigree books have certificates of authenticity (eg Winnipeg) and some don't (eg White Mountain, Western Penn). Of those that don't, there is usually a particular feature of the book that can be used to determine it's provenance.

 

Actually, many of the Marvel White Mountains were first offered for public sale by Sotheby's. The auction house apparently made and affixed a "White Mountain" sticker to the mylars the books were sold in - the WM TTAs I bought last year from board member Nochips were examples of this. The Pacific Coast books also were sold originally by Pacific Comic Exchange with stickered mylars identifying their original owner pedigree status. I suspect alot of these mylars have been lost, so the lack of an identifying mylar does not rule out a book as being from the WM or PC peds.

[esquirecomics]

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

I don't believe so as there has been cases where CGC's pedigree verification process has been proven to be questionable at times. I believe Equirecomics had a GA book that was labelled as pedigree (Larson?) but in actual fact was not.

 

Yep, a Blue Ribbon Comics #1 CGC 8.5. There is a thread on this in the GA section.

[jkc313]

 

 

Do all pedigree collections have certificates?

 

Some pedigree books have certificates of authenticity (eg Winnipeg) and some don't (eg White Mountain, Western Penn). Of those that don't, there is usually a particular feature of the book that can be used to determine it's provenance.

 

Actually, many of the Marvel White Mountains were first offered for public sale by Sotheby's. The auction house apparently made and affixed a "White Mountain" sticker to the mylars the books were sold in - the WM TTAs I bought last year from board member Nochips were examples of this. The Pacific Coast books also were sold originally by Pacific Comic Exchange with stickered mylars identifying their original owner pedigree status. I suspect alot of these mylars have been lost, so the lack of an identifying mylar does not rule out a book as being from the WM or PC peds.

 

I bought many of the Southeby's WHite mountains and many more of the first batch of Western Penns from Mike Friedlander. Many of the Western Penn books are put on CGC label mainly by how reputable the person sending the book in is. When I sent the Western Pa TTA 44 in, there was no way to prove it but they accepted it. The SOutheby's books all have the sticker but the ones i bought From Jerry Weist did not. There were 2 Western Pa Showcase 27's and CGC won't put Western Penn on one of them because it only graded 6.0. I just bought that one back having had it 15 years ago or so. My rambling point is, it's a good thing many of these books stayed in reputable dealers and known collectors hands or CGC would never have let them have the pedigree on their label. I shudder to think what would happen if certain dealers sent in 10-50 supposed Western Pa or White Mt books.

keith

[namisgr]

Thanks for the info, Keith. Can you tell us any more about the origins of the Western Pennsylvania collection? Was Mike Friedlander the founder dealer? What do you know about the owner? And finally, where are all the early Silver Age Marvels hiding?

[JOHN HAYES]

I bought several mile high II from mile high comics with certificates before cgc existed and cgc did not recognized the pedigree for submission with the certificate

[namisgr]

I bought several mile high II from mile high comics with certificates before cgc existed and cgc did not recognized the pedigree for submission with the certificate

 

That's because it's a warehouse find and not a pedigree.

[DrWatson]

That's is correct, but Chuck had one large submission in which CGC labeled the books as a Mile High II. The "undiscovered pallet" or something like that. Any other MH2s that exist (all 1.5 million of them) that were not part of that submission do not receive that designation regardless if they have a certificate or not.

 

Quite frankly, if I had been CGC, I wouldn't have labeled any of them.

 

Does anyone know how many got labeled?