Should revealing a book's history be mandatory for a seller?

[skybolt]

After reading these recent scandals regarding CGC and certain dealers, I'm starting to wonder how this hobby can regain the average collector's trust again.

 

I haven't purchased a single comic book over the past 1.5 months and may take the entire year off, unless things change drastically in this business. As I've mentioned before, I'm not in this hobby to make money, but certainly don't want to get fleeced when selling my collection years down the road. My other worry has always been having my name dragged through the mud because I somehow wound up with a tainted book and mistakingly tried to sell it. It only takes one incident to ruin a person's reputation, and I hate having to walk that tight rope with every transaction. I don't press or even resub for a higher grade, but there are other pitfalls in the hobby.

 

For instance, if my collection consists of certain books purchased from Metro, Four Color Comics, Superworld, Ebay seller XYZ, etc., is it proper courtesy to mention this information when listing a book on Ebay or other sites? Should we also be required to list the date of purchase, date of slabbing (if book was purcahsed raw), initial grade before resubbing, and the final grade after pressing/conserving (if this work is performed)? If you know why a book you submitted to CGC received a certain grade, should you mention the unseen spine split, interior tear, detached staple, etc., even though this information may also be in the grader's notes? I've always held the belief that unless I'm asked these specific questions directly by a potential buyer, I'd just list the CGC grade with large front and back cover scans. However, with all the recent revelations and distrust, I along with many other buyers would feel a lot more comfortable knowing the brief history of the book in their possession. At least my conscience would be clear if it was somehow revealed that the book was pressed prior to my acquisition. By providing the entire truth upfront, it would make it easier to have a bullet proof return policy as well. If in 5 years, a certain seller that you initially purchased the book from is banned from the hobby for manipulating books, then the new buyer can't blame you for not giving them this relevant information upfront.

 

This additional data can be listed at follows:

 

Book purchased from seller XYZ on 2/2/2003 as raw. Graded as 7.0 by CGC around 7/6/2003. Book resubbed without additional work, and received a grade of 7.5 around 10/5/2003. Book reholdered on 2/2/2005 because the slab was accidentally cracked, etc. I realize that this is a lot of work, so perhaps it should only be applied to books that cost more than $200/$300 (?). Would a consignment site like ComicLink allow someone to list this information with their book?

 

I've never been a person to start a trend, but if I see a few people providing this information upfront, then I'm certainly considering it. Since I'm taking some time off from purchasing new books, I may go back perform research and list whatever additional information I have on each of my books in a personal file. I've saved all this data on my system, but would take some effort to develop it in a spreadsheet format. At the very least, it'll give me a chance to prove how much I paid for a certain book for tax reasons. Plus, this information would be really handy if a prospective buyer does ask questions, and you don't have to spend 2 hours digging for this data.

 

It's unfortunate that the untrustworthiness part of the hobby has reached this critical moment, and where complete honesty seems to be the only salvation.

[Ze-man]

In a perfect world?...yes. But sadly where I live, the world aint perfect.

One can only hope what you suggest will become the norm, rather then the exception.

 

For any dealer to try and build an ongoing client base based on the foundation of being as truthful as possible,even if it is to a fault(or rather possible loss of sales) is all one could ever ask for as a fan of this hobby.

But how much information surrounding any given book is a seller actually privy to?Or how much information should we expect him to provide?

Let alone how much time should a dealer spend researching each books history to qualify himself as " being upfront"?

 

Who knows how it will all unfold... but hey, the times they ARE indeed a changin.

 

Ze-

[ComicSupply]

As I continue to get nicer and nicer books in I try to keep a mental note, or written note about the collector I got them from in case anyone ever asks. I don't buy slabbed books from people, but if I did, I would keep that info around as well.

[Aman619]

the easy answer is yes, when selling definitely offer all that information. And maybe everybody will follow your lead. Unfortunately, as you know, if you reveal certain types of info, it will negatively affect your sale price. If everybody does it, thats no problem cause everybody will be affected similarly.

 

Given human nature however, the result will be that you and others who are open and honest to a fault will suffer while many others, those either "crooked" or just "not stupid" or "suicidal" will be better off.

 

How much will you pay for a clear conscience, even if everybody else skips merrily along taking advantage of unsuspecting buyers?

[Scheradon]

I've actually been thinking a lot about your exact question. I have come to the conclusion that if and when I sell my collection that I will include any known history I have about the book.

 

I'm even thinking that I will put a little info about CGC in a paragraph explaining a little on how they make a "good faith" effort to catch restoration (but aren't perfect) and how they do not consider dry cleaning and NDP to be restoration. I will then state if any book I have has had either restoration or conservation done to my knowledge.

 

My toss up is, if I should post the venue/ebay seller/ or indivuidul right on the listing or if I should say in the listing something like: If anyone would like to know the purchase history of any book of mine, please ask and I will be happy to provide that for you.

 

I know eBay frowns on other people or sellers being mentioned directly in a listing when in a negative light, however I would see this as more a neutral light, so that's probably my biggest concern about putting names right in the listing.

 

You know, this makes me think about those sellers who say: "I will tell someone if a book has been pressed or cleaned if they ask". I would accept that if they put that in their listing, but many customers won't know to ask because they are unsuspecting of that. Mainly because those outside this board don't even know that cleaning and pressing is ok. I personallay bought over 10k in slabbed books before I knew it from joining these boards. I had always seen purple label books that had cleaned and pressed on them so I didn't know CGC had two distinctions of this process. I'm not a expert on these matters of Dry or Wet cleaning, NDP vs non NDP. This info isn't easy to come by unless you scour these forums (or possibly some other comic related forums) and many of the buyers out there don't.

 

This is why, I will disclose all the information (whether important to me or not) about any book I have that I ever sell. I believe that the trust I will gain from providing such detailed background and info, will surpass any dollar loss that info may cause. In fact, I would even garner that the fully honest seller will indeed make more per sale than others who do not provide full info.

[RCComix]

To answer your question, I agree that in a perfect world, the answer would be yes, but as already stated, it is not a perfect world and there is too much $$$ involved for the majority of collectors to continue to purchase in the dark.

 

Just my opinion, but isn't this why we have our comics "certified"? For those collectors that do buy CGC graded comics, isn't the certifiction one of the major reasons why we do? CGC does more than grade, they provide a certification regarding the comic and the average collector should be able to rely on this for something. The blue label helps the average collector in many ways. The question as I see it is "what can we reasonably rely on when we see the label these days?"

 

Sellers may disclose or may not disclose. They may know or they may not know. Bottom line, you can't make em...The average joe needs to be able to count on something, and CGC grading and certification could be the best answer. Faith in the service seems to be eroding these days for some and the long range effect of this is a little scary.

 

My head is spinning these days with all the various threads discussing similar topics in various forms. If some of this doesn't make sense, I apologise in advance.

 

Russ

[LearnedHand]

With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.

 

Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or © you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.

 

LH

[skybolt]

Just my opinion, but isn't this why we have our comics "certified"? For those collectors that do buy CGC graded comics, isn't the certifiction one of the major reasons why we do? CGC does more than grade, they provide a certification regarding the comic and the average collector should be able to rely on this for something. The blue label helps the average collector in many ways. The question as I see it is "what can we reasonably rely on when we see the label these days?"

 

Russ

 

If you read my posts from about 1 year or even 2 months ago, I was saying the exact same thing you did. However, with all the recent revelations about certain BSD's and the PCS service, I'm not so sure anymore.

[B-Smooth]

With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.

 

Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or © you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.

 

LH

 

 

I agree. If you have a question about a book, just friggin ask.

[skybolt]

With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.

 

Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or © you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.

 

LH

 

To answer your questions:

 

a.) I don't think I'd lose face if I told the truth from the time I purchased the book until the time I sold it. I'm not guarantying that the book was never pressed, but I am giving the buyer a brief history since the book was in my possession. Remember, most of the people that have been outted for wrongful doing wasn't because of what others did.

 

b.) I agree

 

c.) I agree again, but since I've always advocated that honesty is the best policy, then I better act upon it.

 

I definitely have to think about this scenario some more.

[The Black Hand ®]

It goes with the territory now. CGC,Heritage, the investor class has stepped into this hobby for better or worse and upped the stakes. With the prices being realised on some of these high grade books I believe full disclosure is the least a seller can strive for. These aren't $50.00 books anymore. If someone drops a grand or ten on a book they deserve to know the history of that book if at all possible. So start taking notes.

[THE_BEYONDER]

The issue isn't really complicated at all. If you know a book was pressed/trimmed/manipulated & you would like to sell that book: DISCLOSE THAT INFO

 

Anything less....and you're being deceptive no matter how one tries to spin their rationale.

[THE_BEYONDER]

With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.

 

Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or © you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.

 

LH

 

With all due respect....your post makes my head hurt.

 

(a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you)

 

Why would someone "lose face" if they disclosed everything they knew? A simple refund should resolve the issue.

 

(b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing

 

Disadvantage? A book that has been worked on to achieve the grade on the label should sell for less than one that wasn't.

 

© you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware.

 

This is where you lost me. What's the difference what another copy goes for? Tell the truth, and let the market decide on the 'value' of the book you're selling.

 

Think about it this way:

 

If you were to withhold info regarding work done to the copy you're selling...and the buyer finds out...you've lost a customer for life. If the other book in your example is discovered to have had work done, the buyer would simply get his refund...and continue shopping with that seller.

 

This is about trust ....and focussing exclusively on the 'bottom-line' is extremely near-sighted.

[skybolt]

My toss up is, if I should post the venue/ebay seller/ or indivuidul right on the listing or if I should say in the listing something like: If anyone would like to know the purchase history of any book of mine, please ask and I will be happy to provide that for you.

 

This is a good point. A disclaimer to contact the seller with the Ebay auction is the best way to go. I'm still not sure how to handle this situation when selling a book on ComicLink though.

[Sal]

dealers will absolutely start revealing as much history about a book as they can - or that they can reasonably make up in abscence of actual knowledge - when the market begins to demand that they do so.

 

right now, what the hobby needs is twofold;

 

a big name dealer to start divulging without buyers asking

and

buyers to flock to said dealer like blowflies on a whale carcass.

 

 

i wonder if the fear - crystallised in Matt Nelson's posts on that other thread - of losing sales for divulging work done is the only thing keeping this sort of revolution from happening.

 

but it's up to the buyers to shape the market, not the dealers. because as long as the dealers make the rules, the buyers are pretty much stuck with the status quo

[Aman619]

Comiclink should probably let you say what you want in your listing.... if it lowers the price, well, you suffer more than them.

[The Black Hand ®]

Who agrees with me? If you know a book was "improved" and you don't disclose, you're a lying, stinking rat.

[Scheradon]

My toss up is, if I should post the venue/ebay seller/ or indivuidul right on the listing or if I should say in the listing something like: If anyone would like to know the purchase history of any book of mine, please ask and I will be happy to provide that for you.

 

This is a good point. A disclaimer to contact the seller with the Ebay auction is the best way to go. I'm still not sure how to handle this situation when selling a book on ComicLink though.

 

Good point. I do believe they allow for seller's comments and occasionally see one with a few sentences of text. I'm assuming a seller is allowed to say whatever info they would like, but am not sure as I've never sold on CL.

[VintageComics]

With all due respect, I think all these voluntary disclosure discussions are just so Pollyanna-ish.

 

Veritas - yes, we all wish we knew the truth . But we aren't in the Garden of Eden, and we can't eat from the Tree of Knowledge.

 

There is no way to ensure anyone discloses anything. Moreover, even if some did, whatever you (or anyone) might know about a 60 year old comic book is probably only a fraction of the book’s actual history. So you end up in one of three undesirable situations – you either (a) end up losing face even when disclosing (if something is discovered about the book that you didn't disclose because it was unknown to you); (b) disadvantage your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller discloses nothing; or © you disclose what you know and end up disadvantaging your book because another copy is up for sale and the other seller (who is quite honest) discloses that there is nothing to disclose (and he believes this), but the book has more history than your book of which the owner is unaware. LH

 

Beyonder, I gotta say, this is about as solid a post as i have seen on the subject. Can't see why it'd make your head hurt.

Learned Hand, don't know who you are, but this covers everything very well. There is a lot to lose for dealers who disclose everything they know of a book, if not every one does it (ie. play on a LEVEL playing field) or disclose what they know, but then what they don't know comes back to burn them.And make no mistake...it will. Sell a guy a book that has a married cover that he knows nothing about, the book comes back 3 months later and the guy is roasted on these baords...sound familiar? I think that the middle ground as using CGC as the final check is the best answer right now. I am not taking the position of an apologist, but what is the real world answer right now? Buy a book that may be colour touched, incomplete, over graded etc, or have 99% of the worry taken out. I understand they have some issues (trimming, pressing, some variance on grading) but this is nowhere even in the same universe as the crapshoot of buying raw on ebay or elswhere unless your source is proven....the pressing issue is not a problem to everyone, and the trimming issue is going to be dealt with or they will have a hard time keeping there doors open. Many may call this passing the buck, but those are their (CGC's) rules, and if a buyer doesn't like the rules than just leave the game. It's really quite simple.

CGC came into being and now a few years later, the end users are trying to change their business model....Mercedes Benz can bend over backwards and spin on their heads, and yet some people will still go to BMW for a vehicle. One elected official can ruin his own family trying to please his people, and yet there will always be those that will never vote for them...or hi own constituants can run him out of town if they change their minds. CGC can either adapt to please the consumer, or some consumers will leave and others fill in their footsteps. Can't please everyone, right? So i don't see massive change coming, but a little streamlining? Yes.

[nik]