QP-how it should or should not affect the Bronze CGC Grade

[BronzeBruce13]

In response to Chris' reply in my "Where are these Bronze CGC 9.8" thread...

 

We know that CGC, for the most, ignores QP in the higher grade books unless they are extreme cases and focuses on structure/defects. The QP factor is not hidden and is left for the indivudal collector/consumer to weigh in on how much it affects his interpretation of the CGC grade. I think that works best as I feel there would likely be far more disagreement on deciding on an "eye appeal" standard and how it impacts a grade compared to almost exclusively grading structure alone as is the current method used by CGC.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Don't you think that if CGC is going to have a "cut-off" grade for production defects, they should also have a "bump" for those with exceptional QP?

[BronzeBruce13]

You just destroyed my lengthy reply by deleting your last post

[THE_BEYONDER]

You just destroyed my lengthy reply by deleting your last post

 

You just can't please some people.

 

 

 

 

 

 

QP vs. STRUCTURE Are they mutually exclusive? An in-depth analysis of numerical grade by Bruce Coller & Chris Hoffman

[BronzeBruce13]

you try losing 3 well-thought out paragraphs when you type with 2 fingers!!!

 

 

[THE_BEYONDER]

you try losing 3 well-thought out paragraphs when you type with 2 fingers!!!

 

 

 

 

Is it okay now?

[Scheradon]

I think there is a point that could be made on why it should affect the grade to some degree. One of the ideas behind CGCs grading service is that it was to allow a buyer to purchase books unseen via internet and mail order. Sort of a tool to facilitate buyer's confidence in that area. If I'm buying a CGC 9.8 blindly, I'd like to think I'm getting a fairly good QP book and not some badly off centered unsightly, tilt your head to view it straight cover.

 

I don't know if the answer is to knock the overall grade down or begin to add a QP # (1-10) in addition to the grade. Say you had a CGC 9.8 OW/WHITE pages and QP 8.

 

Maybe some might feel that's too much info, but considering the new labels in regards to restoration and conservation, it doesn't seem too bad an idea.

[drbanner]

This is an old pet peeve of mine...

[awe4one]

CGC's whole "production defects" doesn't effect the grade argument has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dealers, previously to CGC's introduction, have always accounted for these defects in their grading. It wasn't until CGC mandate that these defects were seen as unimportant...

 

Jim

[THE_BEYONDER]

I talked to Paul Litch many moons ago about an idea I had about seperating those books with perfect QP from the rest. Never heard back.

[drbanner]

CGC's whole "production defects" doesn't effect the grade argument has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dealers, previously to CGC's introduction, have always accounted for these defects in their grading. It wasn't until CGC mandate that these defects were seen as unimportant...

 

Jim

 

I never noticed any dealer taking an off-centered cover into account in the grade...not sure about printer's creases or bindery tears (although I believe the OS Grading Guide specifically allows bindery tears in higher grades).

[ComicBookGuy]

CGC's whole "production defects" doesn't effect the grade argument has always rubbed me the wrong way. Dealers, previously to CGC's introduction, have always accounted for these defects in their grading. It wasn't until CGC mandate that these defects were seen as unimportant...

 

Jim

 

I agree. I think it bothers anyone with a trained eye. Fortunately, if we can see the defects easily it won't hurt us too much in our buying - much like date stamps. Defects like that or a miswrap are so easy to see it's hardly necessary for CGC to point them out. The small dings, hidden creases, etc., are really what we need CGC for. But if you buy from a catalog or website where the book doesn't have a scan, that's where you can run into trouble...

[COI]

Howdy Bruce......

 

Considering that we're in the dark about CGC's grading standards, adding QP factors to their already undisclosed grading system is just going to add to the sometimes arbitrary nature of the slab, especially in the 9.6/9.8 region.

 

I think it's best to leave it to structure, and let the collector determine the value instead of the number on the label.

[Timulty]

I am very cautious on Bronze slabs, because of QP defects. Won't buy one site unseen and would find a notation regarding that, on the slab, to be of help. But then again, it would be another abitrary bit of data. Just like COI has mentioned.

[joe_collector]

I never noticed any dealer taking an off-centered cover into account in the grade...

 

The one I noticed a lot were those hideous "white border beauties" and I've noticed otherwise NM or better copies sold by many dealers as VF or VF/NM. But not production creases or small bindery tears, but those "white borders" have been downgraded since collecting first started up.

[tth2]

Don't you think that if CGC is going to have a "cut-off" grade for production defects, they should also have a "bump" for those with exceptional QP?

No, because the assumption is that a comic is supposed to be manufactured properly, just like a new comic is supposed to be uncreased and have sharp corners. But that's just on the grading front. If collectors want to pay a higher premium for a book with exceptional QP, compared with books of equal structural grade and page quality, they're certainly entitled to.

 

I think your view of QP is skewed because you seem to focus on BA Marvel, which apparently threw the quality assurance manual out the window in the 1970s and 1980s, turning a well centered, straight book into a rarity. If you look at Gold Keys from the 1960s, you will see that they have uniformly good QP, showing that it can be consistently done.

[Monstro]

 

I don't know if the answer is to knock the overall grade down or begin to add a QP # (1-10) in addition to the grade. Say you had a CGC 9.8 OW/WHITE pages and QP 8.

 

Such a tuff one.

 

On one hand a book should be graded on how well it stood the test of time.

A book that was printed off centered really has nothing to do with that.

So I can understand why CGC doesn’t want to downgrade a book based on this.

 

As far as placing more information on the label initially I would be

against that. I think it would cause problems for books the way the purple

label has for restored books. A 9.8 with a QP 6 say would become unwanted

books simply because it READS as not being as perfect.

 

On the other hand books with major QP should be taken into consideration

when grading. In cases where there is say a ½” off center print job on

an otherwise perfect book cannot be overlooked.

 

Other hobbies such as baseball cards have qualifiers for a card being

off centered. In this situation cards that would otherwise be a 9.0 say

but is off center with a qualifier and called out on the label are almost unwanted.

Card collectors would prefer purchasing the same card centered

with a 8.0 grade with no qualifiers.

 

I on the other hand would much prefer a slightly off centered book

in pristine condition 9.8 then a centered 9.4.

[joe_collector]

Other hobbies such as baseball cards have qualifiers for a card being

off centered.

 

Which companies are those?

 

The card graders I've seen and used ALREADY use centering as a grading criteria, and anything worse than 55/45 or 60/40 (depending on company), cannot achieve the 9.X and higher grades.

 

There are NO qualifiers for centering with major sportscard grading companies that I know of, and I think you're confused.

 

CGC is like a dinosaur compared to sportscards, which have valued centering as much as the collector does, since their inception.

 

I on the other hand would much prefer a slightly off centered book

in pristine condition 9.8 then a centered 9.4.

 

Well duh, since the newb label-hounds would pay more for it, and so would you, even though your comment intones that these would somehow be similarly priced (otherwise, why make a comparison?). But we're not talking about what you want, but something that the collector base as a whole can use to determine comic book production quality and eye appeal without a monster scan.

 

If you want a off-cut CGC 9.8, and according to you, prices would fall for these QP freak-show books, why would you be against it? Seems like more freaky books-per-dollar in your collection, right? How is that a bad thing for collectors?

[THE_BEYONDER]

I on the other hand would much prefer a slightly off centered book

in pristine condition 9.8 then a centered 9.4.

 

I prefer the 9.4

 

Not too hard to get a 9.8 copy if you have enough money & don't care about the QP. Finding the perfect 9.4 is a much bigger challenge....and for me...much more rewarding.

[joe_collector]

Finding the perfect 9.4 is a much bigger challenge....and for me...much more rewarding.

 

Not to mention a lot cheaper, as you can buy a boxful of CGC 9.4's for the zany prices those CGC 9.8 QP freak-shows are going for.