Whatever Happened To PCS?

[FFB]

I also mentioned that this is my great hope - why? Well, the only way I see the market imploding is if people stop paying the huge multiples for .2 gradient variations in comic books. In reality this is the only thing in the collectors direct control To play Devils Advocate once again. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY 10X Guide for a 9.6 copy of a non-key, or very minor key SA Comic Book.

 

The reason the crack, clean and press game is going on, that Chis Friesen left CGC to start performing these services in-house for Heritage and other selct clients - IS BECAUSE OF THE $$$. Does anyone really thing that these techniques are being employed for the betterment of the comic book?? The only way I see it stopping is if it is NO LONGER LUCRATIVE. There will always be people with more money to burn than common sense. However the reason the market is where it is right now is not because the Uber rich are blowing tonnes of money on the Uber keys. Look at the Parrino incident, no I think the Top books have more or less topped out - for the time being and regardless will ALWAYS be expensive anyway.

 

The reason the market is where it is right now is because the average serious collector, the person who will spend 500 - 5000 on a single comic book, not everyday but will a few times a year - has had their pocketbook swayed a few positions to the right buy a .2 differentiation in condition. Only when a .2 change in grade equals .2 increase in cost differential, will the market change - I believe that change will be for the better. All other scenerios lead to potential disaster.

 

Cue a number of people defending people's right to 'buy what they want' and a number of others suggesting that 'it's simply jealousy'.

 

For what it's worth, I agree 100%. Nobody would smuggle in materials from Columbia and set up crack house if no-one was buying.

 

PCS is a crack-house (ouch!) and I've said these exact words before - Just Say No!

 

The problem is, you're never going to see .2 increases in price for .2 increments when there are 14 copies of a high-demand book in 9.2, 2 copies of the book in 9.4, and one copy of the book in 9.6. Especially not when there are 100 people (or even 10 people) who badly want to own the best copy. It's not just a question of how much better the 9.4 is than the 9.2. It's also a question of supply in each grade.

[jbud73]

Its just the double standard - I always hear everyone blaming CGC, blaming the dealers for not disclosing it (something that does me off), blaming the scam artists. I also think we as collectors have to be accountable for our actions. Granted not everyone knows what is going on, however a lot of people who do complain also shell out the dollars for HG books. Hey if thats your decision thats fine, I have paid multiples of guide for HG books too - but I also feel that one of the things that is being exploited is the collector mentatlity and unfortunately FT your drug analogy is very apt.

 

Again I use myself as an example. I often have to say, don't go higher that book is not that rare in grade. You can buy a 9.2 for half or less the 9.6 price. The book is from dealer X odds are its been manipulated, factor that into your bid. Sometimes its hard to talk yourself out of buying, especially in auction style events, because you are to some degree talking yourself out of winning.

 

But I will state again, whereas 10 years ago I regretted many purchases I DID NOT MAKE. Over the past 5 YEARS I have regretted purchases I DID MAKE more than I'd care to admit.

[jbud73]

I also mentioned that this is my great hope - why? Well, the only way I see the market imploding is if people stop paying the huge multiples for .2 gradient variations in comic books. In reality this is the only thing in the collectors direct control To play Devils Advocate once again. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY 10X Guide for a 9.6 copy of a non-key, or very minor key SA Comic Book.

 

The reason the crack, clean and press game is going on, that Chis Friesen left CGC to start performing these services in-house for Heritage and other selct clients - IS BECAUSE OF THE $$$. Does anyone really thing that these techniques are being employed for the betterment of the comic book?? The only way I see it stopping is if it is NO LONGER LUCRATIVE. There will always be people with more money to burn than common sense. However the reason the market is where it is right now is not because the Uber rich are blowing tonnes of money on the Uber keys. Look at the Parrino incident, no I think the Top books have more or less topped out - for the time being and regardless will ALWAYS be expensive anyway.

 

The reason the market is where it is right now is because the average serious collector, the person who will spend 500 - 5000 on a single comic book, not everyday but will a few times a year - has had their pocketbook swayed a few positions to the right buy a .2 differentiation in condition. Only when a .2 change in grade equals .2 increase in cost differential, will the market change - I believe that change will be for the better. All other scenerios lead to potential disaster.

 

Cue a number of people defending people's right to 'buy what they want' and a number of others suggesting that 'it's simply jealousy'.

 

For what it's worth, I agree 100%. Nobody would smuggle in materials from Columbia and set up crack house if no-one was buying.

 

PCS is a crack-house (ouch!) and I've said these exact words before - Just Say No!

 

The problem is, you're never going to see .2 increases in price for .2 increments when there are 14 copies of a high-demand book in 9.2, 2 copies of the book in 9.4, and one copy of the book in 9.6. Especially not when there are 100 people (or even 10 people) who badly want to own the best copy. It's not just a question of how much better the 9.4 is than the 9.2. It's also a question of supply in each grade.

 

While I agree with that statement Scott, I think the multiple across a greater proliferation, where the scenerio you described is not the case and there are more copies available is the issue. What I'm talking about is the multiples if its in plastic phenomenon we've seen occur. I think the reason that this is still going on is that many people are not aware of what CGC is and what they are not capable of detecting, or more pointedly what is possible inside a blue label slab.

[nearmint]

 

I got the scan of the page.

 

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Holy cow. That one blurb says it all:

 

"The AM #7 went from 6.5 to 9.0! That makes it the highest graded copy..."

 

Unbelievable. I would think there'd be aspects of a true 6.5 Fine+ level book that couldn't be pressed into a VF/NM. Some color-breaking, edge fraying or something significant.

 

You can read all about it here...

 

my pressed book

[divad]

The sheer humility of it all!

[divad]

What does the "brick" motif say?

[nearmint]

The sheer humility of it all!

 

Full disclosure.

[nearmint]

What does the "brick" motif say?

 

[divad]

What does the "brick" motif say?

 

 

The brick motif in the background of the ad . . . silly

[EastEnd]

Ah here we go again

 

Before we all drag Matt Nelson's name through the mud - and I will preface by saying I DO NOT AGREE with the loophole he is exploiting. I will also say that Matt is one of the most knowledgable people in the hobby and in possession of a wealth of information which he is seemingly always ready to share. If I had a book I was considering getting restored his name would be at the top of the list. He is honest with his assessment of what is and is not possible and is willing to explain each and every aspect of the book in question with you - often giving you more information than you would ever want to know.

 

But lets have a look at where we find ourselves as collectors in the current state of back issue collecting. A brief summary: about 10-15 years ago there were other techniques employed to at a very high level of professionalsim to "help a comic book reach its maximum potential." I believe that is when the proliferation of restoration ensued. Of course there was a resulting backlash which casued restoration to become a dirty word in our hobby. This is sad because I believe that restoration and conservation techniques are important in any collectibles industry where the medium (IE paper) is highly perishable. Of course the Devils Advocate arguement could be "well serves them right, had they left the books alone none of this would have happend."

 

If you talk to people who were highly active in the hobby at the upper echelon, they will often say that, "that was just the way things were back then." Everyone was doing it and you were leaving $$$ on the table if you didnt someone would by the book and have it done anyway.

 

I guess in retrospect we are in another TEST CYCLE. The rules are different, what is being done to the books is different, however the goals and rewards are the same. This time I personally feel that two issues are different. One the legitimacy envoked by CGC and two the profileration. Its a cost-benefit of effects. I will openly state that CGC is a NET positive to the hobby. However, I will also openly state that CGC was DELIBERATELY set up to allow the crack, clean, press technique to occur. In fact, based on their ties and roots in the coin industry what is happening now is the enbodiment of a successfull transition to comics for the powers that be at CCG and Heritage auctions.

 

So where does that leave us as collectors. Given that CGC is NOT going to start noting NDP even if they could detect it and that the purveyors of the technique are NOT simply going to cease - there are only a few likely scenerios that can occur.

 

1. Market backlash - I'm sure JC's happy heart would sing if this happened, depression era style crash. And as was previosuly the case the resulting backlash would be a bad thing for comics as a whole.

 

2. The well dries up. As FFB is oft to point out, there are only so many books that the Clean and Press can be performed on - sooner or later you have to think the stock will drop.

 

3. Market Implosion - we have already seen this with the Jason Ewert ordeal and this is my great fear and unfortunatly great hope. The lucrative nature of C&P is no longer enough and other techniques are sought out in order to squeeze more out of less. Will CGC be up to the task? I certainly hope so.

 

I also mentioned that this is my great hope - why? Well, the only way I see the market imploding is if people stop paying the huge multiples for .2 gradient variations in comic books. In reality this is the only thing in the collectors direct control To play Devils Advocate once again. NO ONE IS FORCING YOU TO PAY 10X Guide for a 9.6 copy of a non-key, or very minor key SA Comic Book.

 

The reason the crack, clean and press game is going on, that Chis Friesen left CGC to start performing these services in-house for Heritage and other selct clients - IS BECAUSE OF THE $$$. Does anyone really thing that these techniques are being employed for the betterment of the comic book?? The only way I see it stopping is if it is NO LONGER LUCRATIVE. There will always be people with more money to burn than common sense. However the reason the market is where it is right now is not because the Uber rich are blowing tonnes of money on the Uber keys. Look at the Parrino incident, no I think the Top books have more or less topped out - for the time being and regardless will ALWAYS be expensive anyway.

 

The reason the market is where it is right now is because the average serious collector, the person who will spend 500 - 5000 on a single comic book, not everyday but will a few times a year - has had their pocketbook swayed a few positions to the right buy a .2 differentiation in condition. Only when a .2 change in grade equals .2 increase in cost differential, will the market change - I believe that change will be for the better. All other scenerios lead to potential disaster.

 

If Matt Nelson is purposely restoring books, including cleaning and pressing them, and knowingly failing to disclose such restoration to his buyers, then he is attempting to rip-off much of the collecting community. I have never, and will never buy a book from Classics Incorporated, because in my mind every book he sells is suspect.

[Scheradon]

 

If Matt Nelson is purposely restoring books, including cleaning and pressing them, and knowingly failing to disclose such restoration to his buyers, then he is attempting to rip-off much of the collecting community. I have never, and will never buy a book from Classics Incorporated, because in my mind every book he sells is suspect.

 

Here is an excerpt from Matt in a recent thread in the SA section:

 

Hi Russ, if any collector wants to inquire about whether the books he's interested in bidding on are pressed, I would certainly disclose that to him.

 

I think there is a general consensus that many collectors would pay less, or not even want a book if they knew it was pressed. This obviously encourages sellers not to disclose pressing. There has to be trust on both sides of the table in order for disclosure to work. (I'm okay buying pressed books, you're okay telling me if it's pressed). As long as there are people crying from the mountaintops about how crooked it all seems to be, that trust will never be established.

 

I think this pretty much sums up how he views discolsure.

[EastEnd]

If Matt Nelson is purposely restoring books, including cleaning and pressing them, and knowingly failing to disclose such restoration to his buyers, then he is attempting to rip-off much of the collecting community. I have never, and will never buy a book from Classics Incorporated, because in my mind every book he sells is suspect.

 

Here is an excerpt from Matt in a recent thread in the SA section:

 

Hi Russ, if any collector wants to inquire about whether the books he's interested in bidding on are pressed, I would certainly disclose that to him.

 

I think there is a general consensus that many collectors would pay less, or not even want a book if they knew it was pressed. This obviously encourages sellers not to disclose pressing. There has to be trust on both sides of the table in order for disclosure to work. (I'm okay buying pressed books, you're okay telling me if it's pressed). As long as there are people crying from the mountaintops about how crooked it all seems to be, that trust will never be established.

 

I think this pretty much sums up how he views discolsure.

 

Yes, I recall seeing that. It's pathetic.

[Davenport]

Thanks for posting the scan.

 

Holy cow. That one blurb says it all:

 

"The AM #7 went from 6.5 to 9.0! That makes it the highest graded copy..."

 

Unbelievable. I would think there'd be aspects of a true 6.5 Fine+ level book that couldn't be pressed into a VF/NM. Some color-breaking, edge fraying or something significant.

 

You can read all about it here...

 

my pressed book

Thanks for the link. It's really interesting to see them side by side. Before you sent it in for work did you think the 6.5 grade was rather harsh? Looked pretty sharp for a Fine+ level book. Do you think the 6.5 grade was primarily due to the bends along the top?

 

It's all so subjective anyway.

I can imagine a professional evaluating a comic in a detached forensic sort of way..." there is no damage to the paper along the top egde, only bent...the spine is... " and appraise condition according to what is actually damaged. In other words, take into consideration that paper bends (and can be re-flattened) when determining the grade, whether it's flat now or not.

 

Bent paper isn't like a gouge in antique wood or a scratch in minted metal. It's more like evaluating some vintage cloth, like dresses or drapes, where it's probably assumed pressing is an option for any aesthetic needs. Where value-loss would be from physical tears, fraying, fading, insect or rodent chews, and such. Not bends, dents, or curls. It's frikken cloth, everybody knows you can press it for eye appeal.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Not from Pedigree. Classics Incorporated (Matt Nelson)

 

 

I got the scan of the page.

 

 

The last blurb bothers me for some reason...

[Aces]

It could have been worse.

The quote could have come from some guy named Understreet.

[nearmint]

Do you think the 6.5 grade was primarily due to the bends along the top?

 

Yes, I do.

[Red Hook]

See my more detailed post below.

[Red Hook]

Although I don't necessarily care for the kind of treatments Matt Nelson is providing to certain books, I have to give him more credit than others for being public about it and for offering the service to everyone. Whether you disagree with him or not, and whether you chalk it up to honesty or arrogance, you know exactly where he's coming from and can choose to use his service or not.

 

Unlike PCS.

 

Also, with the knowledge gained from his ad, I can easily make the assumption that at least some, if not many of the books he offers on ebay may have received similar "massaging", and can simply cross him off my list of dealers I would buy from.

 

For someone who doesn't care about pressing, and who wants a nice highgrade book, and wanted to bid on Matt's books on the bay, that would be their personal choice.

 

What I am concerned about is the new collector or simply the collector that is not aware of the issues. When informed, they may very well go ahead and bid on or buy pressed books. Again, a personal choice. But what continues to bother me is non-disclosure up front.

 

I'm also concerned that new collectors with raw books will read an ad like this and believe that the "pursuit of potential" is a universally accepted practice within the hobby, which it most definitely is not.

 

Red

[Flaming_Telepath]

Although I don't necessarily care for the kind of treatments Matt Nelson is providing to certain books, I have to give him more credit than others for being public about it and for offering the service to everyone. Whether you disagree with him or not, and whether you chalk it up to honesty or arrogance, you know exactly where he's coming from and can choose to use his service or not.

 

Unlike PCS.

 

Also, with the knowledge gained from his ad, I can easily make the assumption that at least some, if not many of the books he offers on ebay may have received similar "massaging", and can simply cross him off my list of dealers I would buy from.

 

For someone who doesn't care about pressing, and who wants a nice highgrade book, and wanted to bid on Matt's books on the bay, that would be their personal choice.

 

What I am concerned about is the new collector or simply the collector that is not aware of the issues. When informed, they may very well go ahead and bid on or buy pressed books. Again, a personal choice. But what continues to bother me is non-disclosure up front.

 

I'm also concerned that new collectors with raw books will read an ad like this and believe that the "pursuit of potential" is a universally accepted practice within the hobby, which it most definitely is not.

 

Red

 

Well, that one's got to get my first of the day!

 

You have a good day, yesterday, Brad? Where did you eat? Did I miss much?

[Red Hook]

It was a great day, although I was very sorry to hear about all the folks that had trouble getting in or getting back into the con. I chalk it up to first year inexperience on their part.....but if it repeats next year, the promoters should be shown not an ounce of mercy.

 

It was a fun con on the floor, but I needed every pound of my bulk to wedge my way through the aisles. Having my daughter Julia with me was a delight, and she was much more engaged by the variety of offerings than she was by her walkthough of a Big Apple a ways back.

 

Didn't by a single comic. Was considering Harry's ASM 18 which is one of the sweetest looking 7.0's you will EVER see. Ended up buying two volumes of Eisners Post-WW2 Spirit Archives and was amazed at the development of his abilities after his time in the service. This is the Eisner everyone talks about.

 

Anyway, dinner was a treat. The meeting was well run by Brian, but detailed reports will come later in the day I expect. And I got to sit at dinner with Captain RedPants himself. Thanks to Hari for arranging for the room.

 

Red