My complaint to 35 cent variant seller

[Darthdiesel]

Just thought interesting and try to get your opinions if I was way out of line, for calling a seller on their grading and service?:

 

To member:

From member: darthdiesel

 

--------------------

 

 

BLACK PANTHER #5 - .35 Cover Price $2 SALE (FN-/FN) ebay#

HUMAN FLY #2 - 35 Cent Cover Variant $2 SALE (FN) ebay#

and 4 off eBay: Kull 22, Marvel Two in One 17, Master of Kung Fu 55 and

Tarzan 2 ( all in fine condition)

 

here are links to the scans:

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/blackpanther5varcgc30.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/humanfly2varcgc25.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/kull22varcgc40.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/marveltwoinone30varcgc40.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/masterofkungfu53varcgc55.jpg

http://darthdiesel.com/35centvariants/tarzan2varcgc30.jpg

 

 

I just got these back from CGC and they are considerably lower than the

fine area you sold them to me for? They came back in the GD range for the

most part.

 

BLACK PANTHER #5 - CGC 3.0 Good/Very good (advertised by you as FN-/FN:

5.5 - 6.0)

HUMAN FLY #2 - CGC 2.5 Good + (advertised by you as FN = 6.0)

All these you sold me off eBay at a condition of Fine for around $65 a piece?:

Kull 22 = CGC 4.0 VG

Marvel Two in One 17 = CGC 4.0 VG

Master of Kung Fu 55 = CGC 5.5 FN-

Tarzan 2 = CGC 3.0 G/VG

 

Anyway you can make up for this discrepancy? Credit? Partial refund? Just

wondering if you will stand by your grading and compensate for

difference/overcharge or adjust future auctions accordingly when you sell

comics?

 

I was pretty trusting when you sold me those 4 off eBay that your grading

was on the nose. And even bought them after you shopped them around for

better prices.

 

======================================

ANSWER:

Hello,

 

We do stand by our grading - have for 20-25 years.

You are the first person EVER to ask for a refund or credit for a comic

book that we've graded.

A word of advice to you. CGC IS NOT the 'know all" in the world of

comic book grading. No matter how much they try to hype that fact.

 

There is much debate over their grading guidelines and their practice

of under grading Bronze & Modern books as opposed to Gold & Silver.

Read some of the comments in the new Overstreet Price Guide and you'll

see that I am not the only person who feels this way. Their grading just

doesn't hold water. It's a 50/50 [!@#%^&^] shoot.

 

For example: I sent them a X-Men #96. I graded it NM- and figured to get a

VF/NM from them. It came back as a VF. NO WAY. So, for the heck of it, I

cracked it open and sent it in again with several other books. The second

time around

it came back as a NM 9.2 - Right on the mark of my original observation of

the book.

So - they jumped one full grade from their first assessment of the same

exact book.

That is not accurate & consistent grading!

 

Another example: Take a good look at a Gold or Silver Age 9.4 and match it

up with a Bronze

or Modern 9.4 - Not even close. The Gold or Silver will always be one half,

to one full grade

over graded if compared.

 

So who benefits from CGC then? I'll tell you who.

 

#1 CGC - because they are making money hand over fist and getting people to

believe that they

have some all mighty grading power that 95% of the rest of comicdom doesn't

have. AND....

#2 The BIG dealers & collectors who would stop using them if they didn't

get a "higher grade".

IE: Metropolis, Four Color, Showcase New England (and he's not crazy about

them), Steve Geppi &

Diamond, and the list goes on.

Take a good look at the Marvel Mystery #1 Pay Copy that Steve Geppi sold to

Jay Parino's Mint.

CGC graded that book a VF/NM 9.0. First of all - what is a "Pay Copy"?! I

know what THEY claim it to be,

but why is it that in 20-25 years of collecting was this term new to me

until this book changed hands?

It's got writing all over the front cover! To me, that would be a flaw that

should have received a Qualified grade.

It didn't. Plus, the book looks like a VF to me. Not a VF/NM. Take a look

for yourself:

http://www.jayparrino.com/detail.cfm?key=4132

 

You were happy with the books prior to having them CGC'd and that's how our

grading standards should be

judged. We can't offer a refund on something that we do not agree with or

believe in. I hope you understand.

Please do some comparisons for yourself and you'll see what I'm talking

about. They are killing the hobby

for profit and I hope people wake up to that fact soon.

 

NAME WITHHELD

==================================

 

MY answer:

 

Good morning XXXX- I'm glad you took the time to answer. I'm not new to the hobby, collecting and grading either so we can drop the CGC is bad for business shpiel to justify our grading. When I purchased them I told you that I would get them submitted, so I was never really "happy", just glad you made the opportunity available and I thought at the prices I was paying for the grade stated, it was a good deal.

 

I have opinions from all over the business, ebay, local stores, national cons, and other peddlers of high grade books. CGC has been close when it comes to my estimation of high grade 9.0 and up and I have been fine with it. I count on them for a better handling of the lower and mid grades, since I have less experience ( but still more than most) with those conditions. So have many others who traffick in comics daily.

 

Let me answer your letter point by point. My intention is for discussion and the betterment of the comic collecting community - not gripe or monetary at this point, since I can accept your reasoning, though not necessarily agree with it:

 

I may be the first person ever who has had the insight and courage to step up and ask that you stand by your grading when a third party says it is off. In these lower, mid grades, I can understand how tough it is to get close to the true grade. Tacking on a Very good avg for these 6 books you sold me would have cost you substantially in the bids and my offer so there is inherent bias for any seller...even myself.. to grade the book and get the most profit from it.

 

I realize that CGC is not the know all and I have solicited the opinions of other variant collectors nationally and high grade dealers and some have come to the same conclusion with the slight overgrading. Many mention how tough it is to grade that low range, but most would still stand by their grading and service to maintain their customer service reputation.

 

I have read the new #33 Overstreet Guide, practiaclly cover to cover, even got the BIg Big spiral bound book so I could see better and even thinking about downloading the electronic version. I guess it comes with the territory for being a new Overstreet Advisor so I might as well get cracking on the books and research.

 

The debate of undergrading Moderns and bronze you speak of is familiar to me, and I also hear that CGC overgrades the older books to appease the older collectors when there is no way that some of the Golden Age 9.4s can stand next to a Modern age 9.4 side by side. So I guess it depends who you talk too. I found their grading of my Modern submissions right on before. No discrepancies here. It is more than a 50/50 [!@#%^&^] shoot - you have prescreeners, pregraders and 3 final graders to go over the books. If the consensus of graders with over 20 years in the business each say one of my books is NM or VG - I would agree on the most part. It may be off by a notch (9.2 becomes 9.0 on regrading or other way around) but not by 3 FULL GRADES! There is a huge distinction between VG and FN and even I can see it. I took your books and packed them up for submission to CGC the minute they arrived. I wrote you a courtesy thank you and the books arrived fine, look great, just to let you know that I was happy with your service. I made no comment however on the grading.

 

The jump of .2 you experienced is more acceptable to me than a jump from 6.0 down to 2.5 or 3.0, that is more than inconsistent grading, it borders on misrepresentation. I would suggest a review at the flaws noted for the grades of Fine , Good, and Very Good in the current 2003 Overstreet Grading Guide is in order.

 

So who benefits from CGC? The online community, the inexperienced grader/collector who wants to get their money's worth, the hobby in general from all the interest business, and fluidity that a universally accepted third party grading opinion provides.

 

Who stands to lose? All those who bought "NM" books in the past form overgrading dealers and most of all, dealers who are not in touch with the stringent grading standards of today. And who are not willing to adapt.

 

The debate continues...thank you for your impeccable speedy service, your intelligent and enlightening response, and chance for debate and _expression of opinion. I wish you the best in your future sales. Unfortunately, you have lost me as a returning customer. But we can't win them all...

 

=================================

 

Enjoy and feel free to call me a whining BEEYATCH...by the way I'll beposting these on eBay soon since the seller will not do anything ( nor should they? You make the call...)

 

[ubiquiti]

NO...

There should most definitely be some credit given - if I sold you those as the grades he gave them(which I wouldn't do anyway...but for the sake of argument) I would give you at least a 50% credit.

You were very correct in your asessment of his grading bordering on misrepresentation - and considering you are someone who submits A LOT of stuff to CGC, based on his gripe with CGC it would stand to reason you should get the higher grade anyway.

I must say, your email to him was very thoughtful and non-combative, and you were well within your rights to express your displeasure.

[ubiquiti]

In looking at your scans closer - he really has no leg to stand on...How could nayone that knows anything about grading call a book with at least a 4" crease in the upper right hand corner a Fine book??

Unbelievable.

[Rickdogg]

Plain and simple...the guy can't grade. Don't lose any sleep over it.

[chromium]

A very well written and intelligent reply to the grader's (passe-partout) explanation...

You hit the nail on the head several times, nice to see there is a literate, intelligent person lurking behind the persona of "Darth the Lovable Troll Clown"...I just wish you would let him out more

[Titan777]

why did you send them to get graded if they looked overgraded by 3 points? you should have sent them back to him immediatly,instead of wasting more money to confirm your gut feeling on the grading .......

 

Bruce:what did you feel?

boy:let..me..think

Bruce: (abruptly slaps boy on the head)....dont think feeel....it is like a finga pointing away to da moon (Bruce points and boy stares at his finger) dont concetrate on the finga or you will miss aaall the heavenly gloreey

[Rip]

I think some small refund is in order, however CGC's grading can be REALLY bad also.

Check this Action 1 out!

http://www.grahamcrackers.com/shopping/shopexd.asp?id=27525

[ubiquiti]

Well that goes back to the GOlden Age grading vs. all other standards - a whole other topic altogether

[Darthdiesel]

Answer from seller:

 

Hello,

Thanks for the well thought out reply. That's a pleasure in itself these days.

Again - we do disagree on several points but that's each person right.

I guess only time will tell.

 

=========

 

Everyone, Thanks for the support and suggestions. And Chromium, go check your Hulk dupes box - I think there is a 181 in there that you forgot to pack!!! DOH!I can live with this if the seller in turn decides to grade more accurately next time around. Those were good books to have anyway, in any condition. I may have paid a tad less for Goods, but then again I don't want to return the books at this point. I'll just post them up sometime on eBay with the RIGHT grades and see what will happen this time.

[Darthdiesel]

I agree Todd - "SHE" was way off in her grading and I just wanted to let her know more than anything. Like I said, money was not the issue in griping here but maybe I just wanted someone to know what I thought and that their grading was off and I'm calling them on it so they are more careful in the future. I'll get into why I slabbed them anyway in Titan's reply...hold on...

[Darthdiesel]

No sleep lost...just sharing for everyone to see. I'm no scambuster like you...My attempt on the AF 15 by hulkababy resulted in egg on my face

[Darthdiesel]

A very well written and intelligent reply to the grader's (passe-partout) explanation...

You hit the nail on the head several times, nice to see there is a literate, intelligent person lurking behind the persona of "Darth the Lovable Troll Clown"...I just wish you would let him out more

 

My skills are not to be shared with Choclatey Waffleboys who don't pack Hulk books right...

[Darthdiesel]

why did you send them to get graded if they looked overgraded by 3 points? you should have sent them back to him immediatly,instead of wasting more money to confirm your gut feeling on the grading .......

 

Because Darthdiesel's grading is not accepted the world over...yet! I thought I'd spend $120+ to make sure I had my "ducks in a row" and some evidence and a third party opinion to fall back on if I pursued any action with the seller. I am biased and if I wanted money back, I could argue for it to be all in the GD minus range to get them to refund more money back. By sending to CGC:

 

1) I have a third party non-biased opinion on the matter.

2) The books are now slabbed in a pretty plastic holder.

3) We give CGC more business.

4) I send them back immediately and it looks like I just flaked on them for dishonorable reasons (ie. I realized they were too much and I just wanted to send them back...got in over my head...blah blah) and I didn't want to present this appearance. I looked over the books and

5) I'm not as confident with grading lower end conditions as I mentioned in my reply to the seller. Better safe than sorry. I would not have as much behinfd me if I returned the books without CGC'ing them first.

 

 

Bruce:what did you feel?

boy:let..me..think

Bruce: (abruptly slaps boy on the head)....dont think feeel....it is like a finga pointing away to da moon (Bruce points and boy stares at his finger) dont concetrate on the finga or you will miss aaall the heavenly gloreey

 

Lost me on this quote? What movie?

[mcd-migration]

While I certainly can understand sending an e-mail after getting the books back from CGC, I can't honestly believe you would expect to get a refund. CGC grades differently than Overstreet which grades different than Wizard which grades different than CBG, etc. Send the exact books back to CGC & who knows what they would grade, but I bet it would be different. Throw in that the G thru F grades are somewhat more open to different opinions. If you received the books & let them know at the time that you thought the grades were off then it would be a different matter, but you accepted them as is, probably because you thought the grading was pretty close at the time.

 

[Bonds25]

I agree with your post, but if you disagreed with his grading that much, you should have asked for a refund before mailing to CGC. Just IMHO.

[Darthdiesel]

While I certainly can understand sending an e-mail after getting the books back from CGC, I can't honestly believe you would expect to get a refund

 

No I guess I never really did. Maybe a partial or credit toward next purchase...which no there won't be. You take the same point she did. I guess in lower grades it would be more difficult, but to the point of resubmitting and regrading, Donut can vouch for me on this. I took his CGC 8.0 red label Iron Man 100 35 cent variant broke it out and sent it in with this same batch and it came back blue label at ...CGC 8.0 VF...I even tried "pressing" it in a big dictionary and under several comix longboxes...and it still came back the same grade... I don't know about you but that's enough expense, time and proff for me to say that CGC is consistent enough when it comes to these things.

 

but you accepted them as is, probably because you thought the grading was pretty close at the time.

 

True but what do I really know about grading these low grades? I don't do it for Moderns that I submit from the case or distributor on a weekly basis?

Sad to say, with all that I do, I did not have time to inspect these books. I filed the books away in my "To Be CGC'd" box as I do with most of my variants. (and early USM, key books, etc.) I didn't really take note of it when packing. I saw scans before I bought and thought yes they look FINE to me..good enough...here's my money.

 

Anyway, I want to keep the books, just thought I'd let the seller know how their grading stacked up to CGC's and see if they would do anything to stand by their grading.

[Darthdiesel]

I agree with your post, but if you disagreed with his grading that much, you should have asked for a refund before mailing to CGC. Just IMHO.

 

It would have been tough for me to disagree...based on what? My gut feeling that it is a good not a fine and I want money back because of that? My eagle eye for picking 9.8 and up USMs and Origins? They'd probably laugh that off and rightfully so. I'd rather have a respected/accepted third party opinion before I go around telling dealers who "have been in the business for 25 years" that their grading sucks and that they are in the business of ripping people off.

[Bonds25]

I don't follow you. I can tell the difference between a GD/VG and a FN, and I'm sure you can too. If you didn't agree with the grades, you should have contacted them when you got the books.

[murph0]

You should tell him your an Overstreet Advisor therefore your opinion supercedes his.

 

Brian

[Darthdiesel]

I can tell the difference between a GD/VG and a FN, and I'm sure you can too

 

Let's say that I can and am fully confident with that. Do I tell the seller that based on my opinion alone or is it easier to file a copmplaint based on CGC's opinion as well. You know when it comes to getting USMs in the mail that have one ding too many to be NM, I actually send books back. NOW I will just have to start scrutinizing my older books as well. Point taken.