CGC FORUM TOP BRONZE AGE COVERS - Final List, Thought, Impressions

[chrisco37]

Fo' shizzle.

[Scheradon]

Since the work putting this contest together is appreciated, but the scoring is so screwed up, I think only one of you should suffer the brunt of a public stoning. Perhaps we should do a weighted vote on it.

[Scheradon]

To me the real order that reflects the most popular cover is the revised weighted vote list.

 

I do hope that going forward into the SA contest, that this is fixed and explained to all who participate.

 

Also, did eddly and cgc_world submit nominations and NOT vote? That's the only thing that can explain two books receiving 0 votes.

[Timulty]

I volunteer my help for the Silver, if you guys need it.

[blowout]

 

I do hope that going forward into the SA contest, that this is fixed and explained to all who participate.

 

Hopefully it will be CA next.

[Point Five]

First off, sincere thanks to jbud & FFB for the contest! Quite honestly I couldn't care less how they weighed the voting. A very entertaining and even thought-provoking contest.

 

When it comes to the BA, gotta admit that I'm a DC fanboy & a pretty solidly "mainstream superhero" one at that. Here were my votes:

 

1. Batman 227

2. Superman 233

3. Green Lantern 76

4. House of Secrets 92

5. Amazing Spiderman 122

 

Thinking about these DC books I chose, what I see them as having in common (besides the fact that they're obviously key issues with a good amount of symbolic oomph) is that these covers are essentially bold, SIMPLE images that really stand out from the mass of BA covers. If you think about the BA in general, you realize how many wrenching changes comics went through in the 70s...lots and lots of price changes, bewildering page count changes, experimentation with different backup features, etc etc...all of which usually had to be reflected on the cover, resulting in a mass of extremely cluttered covers which also took on some fairly heavy-handed Marvel/DC branding elements in this era. It took a lot to stand out from all that, and IMO the more iconic covers like these (and many of the other nominees) did it beautifully.

 

My two cents. Thanks again guys!

[Comicdey]

Thanks for all the effort to pull this together....even with the art major accounting.

 

I agree with the new weighted list for the board bronze age cover list.

 

The way the votes were tallied is similar to CGC grading.

 

Only the shadow knows.

[Darrell F]

Thanks for the hard work guys

[jbud73]

Ok, well lets not drag Scott into this - because the scoring methodolgy was mine. It tends to work better if there are more people voting tham 77. However it did what it was designed to do and that is BREAK TIES. With a weighted system and points assessment you will have many more ties and then you can debate the weight of points given. Some people will always argue that first place votes are worth more and so on and so on. If you read the initial post I was pretty clear that the placing would go by most 1sts, then 2nds, 3rds, etc.

 

Here it seems that people are arguing that 1st place votes should be worth less and that is their opinion. Again

[divad]

 

here's the full list, with weighted scoring:

 

Batman 227 90

Green Lantern 76 69

Wonder Woman 199 52

Amazing Spiderman 122 51

Superman 233 40

X-Men 141 39

Batman 251 37

House of Secrets 92 30

DC 100pg Super. Spec 4 29

Batman 244 29

Giant Size X-Men 1 27

House of Secrets 88 25

Amazing Spiderman 136 24

Defenders 10 21

Conan Annual 1 21

House of Mystery 236 18

Detective Comics 423 17

Superman 317 17

House of Secrets 96 16

Conan 20 16

Avengers 93 16

DC Special 6 15

Conan 24 14

X-Men 136 14

X-Men 101 14

Green Lantern 86 13

Hulk 181 13

Swamp Thing 7 13

Swamp Thing 9 13

Action Comics 419 12

X-Men 94 12

Batman 232 12

Swamp Thing 5 11

Adventure Comics 431 10

Aquaman 49 9

Thor 225 9

Avengers 110 9

New Gods 1 9

Detective Comics 402 9

Sinister House of Secret Love 3 9

Detective Comics 400 9

Detective Comics 403 9

Amazing Spiderman 123 8

Conan 37 8

Iron Man 47 8

Amazing Spiderman 144 7

Captain Marvel 28 7

Batman 221 7

House of Secrets 127 7

Conan 1 7

House of Secrets 110 7

Superman 252 7

Ghost Rider 1 6

Captain America 156 6

Detective Comics 405 6

Amazing Spiderman 129 6

Fantastic Four 116 5

Marvel Premiere 1 5

Master of Kung Fu 55 5

Strange Tales 178 5

Swamp Thing 3 5

X-Men 99 5

Batman 237 5

X-Men 137 5

Shanna the She Devil 1 5

Thor 193 5

Detective Comics 404 5

Conan 19 4

Army At War 1 4

Avengers 141 4

X-Men 133 4

X-Men 112 4

Weird War Tales 24 4

Amazing Adventures 11 3

Amazing Spiderman 86 3

Captain Marvel 33 3

Cerebus 1 3

Creatures on the Loose 33 3

Strange Tales 179 3

Detective Comics 412 3

Fantastic Four 166 3

Iron Man 80 3

Master of Kung Fu 64 3

Batman 245 2

Captain Marvel 32 2

Daredevil 170 2

Detective Comics 441 2

Fantastic Four 103 2

Thor 283 2

Weird Mystery Tales 8 2

Daredevil 168 2

Amazing Adventures 18 1

Avengers 161 1

Fantastic Four 96 1

Fantastic Four 214 1

Giant Size Man-Thing 4 1

New Teen Titans 1 1

Phantom 74 1

Special Marvel Edition 16 1

Spiderwoman 6 1

Super Villian Team Up 14 1

Conan 21 1

Action Comics 484 0

X-Men 109 0

[selegue]

I didn't nominate or vote because I know so little about the Bronze Age that I didn't feel I could vote for five covers with a straight face -- but the results are interesting.

I asked this over on General but this is probably a better place. I'm NOT complaining about the contest or trying to tell anyone that they're wrong.

 

Just for the sake of discussion...

Do people here really think that ALL of the great covers from Jan 1970 to Dec 1981 came from the Big Two? Just for the sake of discussion, here are three R Crumb covers that I think fit the criteria and are clean enough to post. Are all of the nominees better than these or other non-mainstream covers by Bodé, Griffin, etc.?

 

Jack

 

 

 

[jbud73]

 

here's the full list, with weighted scoring:

 

Batman 227 90

Green Lantern 76 69

Wonder Woman 199 52

Amazing Spiderman 122 51

Superman 233 40

X-Men 141 39

Batman 251 37

House of Secrets 92 30

DC 100pg Super. Spec 4 29

Batman 244 29

Giant Size X-Men 1 27

House of Secrets 88 25

Amazing Spiderman 136 24

Defenders 10 21

Conan Annual 1 21

House of Mystery 236 18

Detective Comics 423 17

Superman 317 17

House of Secrets 96 16

Conan 20 16

Avengers 93 16

DC Special 6 15

Conan 24 14

X-Men 136 14

X-Men 101 14

Green Lantern 86 13

Hulk 181 13

Swamp Thing 7 13

Swamp Thing 9 13

Action Comics 419 12

X-Men 94 12

Batman 232 12

Swamp Thing 5 11

Adventure Comics 431 10

Aquaman 49 9

Thor 225 9

Avengers 110 9

New Gods 1 9

Detective Comics 402 9

Sinister House of Secret Love 3 9

Detective Comics 400 9

Detective Comics 403 9

Amazing Spiderman 123 8

Conan 37 8

Iron Man 47 8

Amazing Spiderman 144 7

Captain Marvel 28 7

Batman 221 7

House of Secrets 127 7

Conan 1 7

House of Secrets 110 7

Superman 252 7

Ghost Rider 1 6

Captain America 156 6

Detective Comics 405 6

Amazing Spiderman 129 6

Fantastic Four 116 5

Marvel Premiere 1 5

Master of Kung Fu 55 5

Strange Tales 178 5

Swamp Thing 3 5

X-Men 99 5

Batman 237 5

X-Men 137 5

Shanna the She Devil 1 5

Thor 193 5

Detective Comics 404 5

Conan 19 4

Army At War 1 4

Avengers 141 4

X-Men 133 4

X-Men 112 4

Weird War Tales 24 4

Amazing Adventures 11 3

Amazing Spiderman 86 3

Captain Marvel 33 3

Cerebus 1 3

Creatures on the Loose 33 3

Strange Tales 179 3

Detective Comics 412 3

Fantastic Four 166 3

Iron Man 80 3

Master of Kung Fu 64 3

Batman 245 2

Captain Marvel 32 2

Daredevil 170 2

Detective Comics 441 2

Fantastic Four 103 2

Thor 283 2

Weird Mystery Tales 8 2

Daredevil 168 2

Amazing Adventures 18 1

Avengers 161 1

Fantastic Four 96 1

Fantastic Four 214 1

Giant Size Man-Thing 4 1

New Teen Titans 1 1

Phantom 74 1

Special Marvel Edition 16 1

Spiderwoman 6 1

Super Villian Team Up 14 1

Conan 21 1

Action Comics 484 0

X-Men 109 0

 

Well and my critique here - even though this method of tabulation gets Conan 20 a book I nominated and voted for in the top 20 - is that you have books that NOBODY, not one of the 77 people had as their 1st and you get a books knocked out that 2 ppl have as their #1 choice. Again

[trevorlsmith]

One way to compensate for ties using a weighted method would be to go to the number of 1st place votes, then 2nd, etc...in the cases where weighted scores yield a tie.

 

Ok, well lets not drag Scott into this - because the scoring methodolgy was mine. It tends to work better if there are more people voting tham 77. However it did what it was designed to do and that is BREAK TIES. With a weighted system and points assessment you will have many more ties and then you can debate the weight of points given. Some people will always argue that first place votes are worth more and so on and so on. If you read the initial post I was pretty clear that the placing would go by most 1sts, then 2nds, 3rds, etc.

 

Here it seems that people are arguing that 1st place votes should be worth less and that is their opinion. Again

[14 of spades]

not to take away from the effort here jbud, but the way the order was done was borderline illogical. Just consider #2 (ASM122) vs. #3 (GL76)

 

ASM 122 had 6 first votes, true, to GL's 5 first votes.

 

but 5+4+6+4+2 = 21 total ballots had GL on it whereas only 6+1+4+2+1 = 14 total ballots had ASM on it. more people factually "voted for" GL than the did for ASM.

 

what a ranking by a "first place tally" (which was done here) gives us is a sense of, amongst those who liked covers, who liked their particular cover THE MOST. i.e. those who liked ASM 122, were most likely to like it A LOT, more so than those who liked GL (who liked it slightly less than the average ASM122-liker). however, if u count total number of votes, in general, more people liked GL at some level, as compared to ASM.

 

to the person who said that this "first place tally" ranking is how they do it in the olympics, that's nonsense. for sports that are measured objectively (time, distance etc.), no judge is needed, so our ranking system doesn't apply.

 

for sports that are judged by humans (such as in our poll) e.g. figure skating, i'm sure that a skater with 3 first place votes and no other top-3 votes, will finish second to a figure skater with 2 first place votes and 6 2nd place votes, if there are 8 judges. (the remaining 1st place votes were shared one apiece by other skaters)

[delekkerste]

not to take away from the effort here jbud, but the way the order was done was borderline illogical.

 

I agree that a weighted (5-4-3-2-1) vote system makes a lot more sense. However, that methodology results in Conan #24 dropping out of the Top 20, and I would find it very difficult to take a Top 20 BA Covers list seriously that was missing Conan #24 - even more difficult than taking seriously a list that has Batman #227 as its #1 cover of the Bronze Age.

[joe_collector]

Here it seems that people are arguing that 1st place votes should be worth less and that is their opinion. Again

 

I've been really nice so far, but statements like this really make me wonder what level of Mathematics you completed.

 

Here's an example of the totally flawed mechanics of your "ordering":

 

Book A could get 2 1st place votes but ZERO 2nd, 3rd, 4th, or 5th place votes and hypothetically rank 14th. Shoot, it could be the same guy + a shill.

 

Book B could get 0 1st place votes, but 16 2nd's, 13 3rds, 22 4ths and 17 5th's, and rank 41st. If you really wanted to get whacky, Book B could have an INFINITE number of 2nd-to-5th place votes (the ENTIRE forum could have voted the book in second place) and it wouldn't change your rankings.

 

Do you really think that if the ENTIRE forum voted a comic cover #2, that the book deserves to be in 41st position? That would hypothetically be 77 Second Place votes, yet the book would be nowhere to be found in the rankings...

 

You have essentially totally disregarded the 2nd-5th place votes, except in case of tie-breakers, so why even ask for 5 votes? A single "Top Cover" vote + one or two alternates, have sufficed for the forum.

[joe_collector]

Well and my critique here - even though this method of tabulation gets Conan 20 a book I nominated and voted for in the top 20 - is that you have books that NOBODY, not one of the 77 people had as their 1st and you get a books knocked out that 2 ppl have as their #1 choice. Again

 

I agree with this, IF you had only asked for a "TOP COVER" single vote, and maybe one or two alternates.

 

But you asked for FIVE VOTES, so please count them.

[FlyingDonut]

Here's my list of the top 21 (there's a 3-way tie at 20), based on a weighting of 5-4-3-2-1. Ties were broken by highest number of first place votes, then highest second, then highest third. Big thanks to jbud for doing it, as it was very fun.

 

Position/Issue/points

1. Batman 227, 90

2. Green Lantern 76, 69

3. Wonder Woman 199, 52

4. Amazing Spider-Man 122, 51

5. Superman 233, 40

6. X-Men 141, 39

7. Batman 251, 37

8. House of Secrets 92, 30

9. DC 100 Page 4, 29

10. Batman 244, 29

11. Giant Size X-Men 1, 27

12. House of Secrets 88, 25

13. Amazing Spider-Man 136, 24

14. Defenders 10, 21

15. Conan Annual 1, 21

16. House of Mystery 236, 18

17. Detective Comics 423, 17

18. Superman 317, 17

19. House of Secrets 96, 16

20. Avengers 93, 16

21. Conan 20, 16

[jbud73]

I think Conan 20 beats Avengers 93 (which didnt get a first) - and while I agree that the weighted system may be more representative further down the list when the voting is sparse - I still think a straight 5-4-3-2-1 weight problematic (It essentially counts two 3rds as being worth more than a 1st) had I set a weighted poll I would have ascribed values to the weights.

 

The voting is taken from a electoral / survey style analysis which may place too much importance on a person's first choice - however I still feel the Top 20 results hold up well and I am very confident that no shills were involved in the voting - there were two instances of votes from ppl with less than 50 votes at time and who had recently registered, both of them were not counted.

 

Thanks again for the commentary - it will help with the Copper Poll which Bonds and blowout have indicated they will help me with.

[Fan4Fan]

I think Conan 20 beats Avengers 93 (which didnt get a first) - and while I agree that the weighted system may be more representative further down the list when the voting is sparse - I still think a straight 5-4-3-2-1 weight problematic (It essentially counts two 3rds as being worth more than a 1st) had I set a weighted poll I would have ascribed values to the weights.

 

Yes, a better way would have been to have a larger spread in the weights to prevent something like that from happening.