JLA 166-168...

[awe4one]

Comic companies have no responsibility whatsoever to cater to the back issue market. Once the comic is sold, they are off to the next "new" issue. Their profits are generated from the direct market not comics pulled from a box and sold last year. They make no money from back issues and would be foolish to cater to that market from a business standpoint.

 

If reprints sell, then the company would be foolish to not release them...and do so with no regard to [embarrassing lack of self control] off some who think their back issue will suffer...

 

Jim

[UnrulyAppendage]

Do you think the sales of Superman 204 came from people wanting to read that story? Sure, the first 50-75,000 did, the other however many gadjillion were bought by shops and other speculators hoping to cash in at some later date. So sales to comic companies DO COME FROM ANTICIPATED BACK ISSUE SALES! It is a sale to them whether the shop owner bought it with the expectation of selling it off the rack this week or with the expectation of hoarding it and hoping to make some money later (admittedly something that is harder and harder to do nowadays).

 

And when the speculator sees his speculated comic is worth squat on the back market, he gets out, the market is flooded with cheap comics and the back issue value goes down, not to mention good will towards the company from the dealers.

 

Comic companys want as many copies sold as possible. However, if the back issue market gets to the point their readers can't afford copies, or do not want to pay the money to get the back issues, they lose future customers. It is better for DC to keep readers interested by offering cheap reprints. DC does not make money on back issue sells.

 

Dealers would go out of business if they bought extra comics with the hopes of selling them at a higher price in the back issue bins. Dealers would rather sell out what they buy and then sell the reprinted issues.

[matewan1990]

"My whole argument is based upon the fact that you keep spouting this ignorant garbage about how comic companies owe it to us, the collector, to create comics that are going to go up in value. That's what you're saying, right?"

 

That's not what I'm saying you ignoramus. I'm saying that they probably don't help themselves when they do things after the fact that HURTS back issues. New comics, on average, aren't going anywhere but down, with a few rare exceptions. That's the nature of the beast, particularly in the internet era.

 

And why are you getting into name calling anyway? I think the most offensive word I used was "silly." Wow, you people are vicious. Get a life folks. We're talking about frigging funny books here people. They're meant to be read while sitting on the can.

 

Now back on point. Classic example: Wolverine 75 hologram covers and the others put out around then. They were enjoying a nice little market as back issues, selling at cover, more than cover, etc. in the 90s when things were sliding. Then BAM, holy cow, apparently Marvel had like another million of them in a warehouse somewhere and they wind up appearing everywhere like in 4 packs at Odd Lot Trading for 99 cents, etc. Sure, I understand, they wanted their money, but my friend who owned a shop basically said "that's the last time I order extras. If anything winds up doing well Marvel is just going to dump a bunch more on the market and kill it." Perhaps this is a good thing as new comic speculation has been nearly sucked out of the hobby, I don't know, but it does hurt the publishers' bottom line.

 

Do you think the sales of Superman 204 came from people wanting to read that story? Sure, the first 50-75,000 did, the other however many gadjillion were bought by shops and other speculators hoping to cash in at some later date. So sales to comic companies DO COME FROM ANTICIPATED BACK ISSUE SALES! It is a sale to them whether the shop owner bought it with the expectation of selling it off the rack this week or with the expectation of hoarding it and hoping to make some money later (admittedly something that is harder and harder to do nowadays).

 

Anyway, make up your mind, should comic companies be creating fantastic new product that excites readers (I like that), or filling the racks and shelves with a bunch of reprints of old junk because it's cheap to do so and they want to capitalize on some temporary interest in some ancient story line? Actually, I think profits realized from pumping out reprints gets in the way of coming up with good new stuff. Easy money is going to be pursued before "hard money". So there!!

———

—First off, I never called you a name, nor did I engage in name calling. I merely gave adjectives describing YOUR COMMENTS. I'm not the ignoramus, here, now am I?

"That's not what I'm saying you ignoramus. I'm saying that they probably don't help themselves when they do things after the fact that HURTS back issues. New comics, on average, aren't going anywhere but down, with a few rare exceptions. That's the nature of the beast, particularly in the internet era."

———

HURTS back issues? Huh? How can a comic's sales now, hurt sales of a back issue? That's completely stupid (Note: I never called you stupid, just your statement).

"Do you think the sales of Superman 204 came from people wanting to read that story? Sure, the first 50-75,000 did, the other however many gadjillion were bought by shops and other speculators hoping to cash in at some later date. So sales to comic companies DO COME FROM ANTICIPATED BACK ISSUE SALES! It is a sale to them whether the shop owner bought it with the expectation of selling it off the rack this week or with the expectation of hoarding it and hoping to make some money later (admittedly something that is harder and harder to do nowadays)."

—Actually, I DO think that Superman 204 sold because of the quality story and art, rather than speculation. C'mon, do you think that people weren't going to buy Superman 204 when it had Brian Azzarello and Jim Lee on it? Two HIGH PROFILE creators who are proven sellers, who are great creators, whose books are always high sellers? Plus, DC's marketing machine let everyone know it was coming. I mean, this is one half of the creators behind the Batman: Hush series that took the comics world by storm. Did you really think that it wouldn't sell in big numbers?

Sounds to me like you have speculated on one too many comics at some point and are bitter because you're stuck with a lot of comics you can't resell at a profitable margin. All of your comments sound like you're full of sour grapes and dregs because you've speculated and lost.

———

"Anyway, make up your mind, should comic companies be creating fantastic new product that excites readers (I like that), or filling the racks and shelves with a bunch of reprints of old junk because it's cheap to do so and they want to capitalize on some temporary interest in some ancient story line? Actually, I think profits realized from pumping out reprints gets in the way of coming up with good new stuff. Easy money is going to be pursued before "hard money". So there!!"

—Comic companies should be creating fantastic new product and that's it. End of story. They DON'T MAKE ANY MONEY OFF OF BACK ISSUE SALES, SO WHY WOULD THEY WORRY ABOUT THE BACK ISSUE MARKET? That's a secondary market. How many times do I have to say that to get you to understand?

I like reprints of old material that I can't readily get at my local comic shop. Many times, I like to buy the reprint because it's easier than digging out my copy from out of the long boxes stored in my comic book room. Plus, it saves my copy wear and tear (because, after you've read and re-read comics like I do, there's sometimes not much left of them).

I see nothing wrong with reprints, because many new comic readers would like to read an old story that ties in with today's storylines and don't want to buy a back issue. Reprints are easy money for comic companies, because they are already there, already published.

And what's the big deal about comic companies making a profit? I hope they continue to make profits because that keeps them in business and keeps me with comics to read. It's a win-win situation for me and many other comic collectors.

I do think it's hilarious that you ended your statement with "So there!!" That's so funny, because it shows me how childish you are (oops, I didn't exactly call you a name, but I did refer to you and your actions; it's kind of like sticking your tongue out and saying "Nah-nah-nah-nah-nah." I stopped doing that when I was, like, three years old).

Have a nice day!

Mike B.

[Foolkiller]

Matewan,

 

One thing I would disagree with is that there's no tangential relationship between the short term speculator back issue market and the direct market, and I do think, that to some degree, companies are sensitive to the after market. When, in the past, and now reemerging, you see chrome covers, variant covers, and a sensitivity towards building an event, they are aware, as part of their market base, the collector who speculates as well. Just taking the Superman 204 example, my friend bought a case of Superman 204s (which he got stuck with because they didn't sell). Your point is well taken that the book would sell anyway, but perhaps not at the astronomical numbers it did without some anticipation of the fact that stores and collectors alike would think, that like with bats 608, the book might rise in value. Also, I don't think you are arguing that there's no sensitivity to the secondary market from companies, but rather it's not their number focus. Obviously, with things like RRPs they are showing that a limited collectible, which they give away for free, is a huge boon for retailers.

 

I am more in agreement than disagreement with you though, on the overall point that DC/Marvel etc. are more interested in the new book sale (and trades more and more), and that's the primary drive for their product, not to worry about whether comic book store (x) can make money in the aftermarket.

[matewan1990]

Matewan,

 

One thing I would disagree with is that there's no tangential relationship between the short term speculator back issue market and the direct market, and I do think, that to some degree, companies are sensitive to the after market. When, in the past, and now reemerging, you see chrome covers, variant covers, and a sensitivity towards building an event, they are aware, as part of their market base, the collector who speculates as well. Just taking the Superman 204 example, my friend bought a case of Superman 204s (which he got stuck with because they didn't sell). Your point is well taken that the book would sell anyway, but perhaps not at the astronomical numbers it did without some anticipation of the fact that stores and collectors alike would think, that like with bats 608, the book might rise in value. Also, I don't think you are arguing that there's no sensitivity to the secondary market from companies, but rather it's not their number focus. Obviously, with things like RRPs they are showing that a limited collectible, which they give away for free, is a huge boon for retailers.

 

I am more in agreement than disagreement with you though, on the overall point that DC/Marvel etc. are more interested in the new book sale (and trades more and more), and that's the primary drive for their product, not to worry about whether comic book store (x) can make money in the aftermarket.

 

Here's the one point I've tried to drive home: Comic company executives don't — and shouldn't — focus their creative energies toward what's going to sell as back issues, their focus is on what's going to sell now. Creating good comics is what they should worry about and not the secondary market, that's why I'm not upset that some comic company exec said he didn't care about back issue collectors. As long as we buy comics, they don't care whether we resell them or not. Just like TV Guide doesn't publish its magazine with concerns to who will buy today's issue five years from now on the back issue market. Comics are like magazines, throw-away entertainment. But, WE, the collectors, have made it into a hobby, collecting these pamphlets full of cartoons and stories, and it's on our choulders to worry about the back issue market. Not the comic companies, who need to continue focusing on their creative output, rather than making sure Manhunter 12 is worth $25 two years from now (it won't be worth that, so don't anyone read anything into that statement).

I don't actually know of too many back issues from the past 10 years that sell well, other than what's hot now. But, when everything cools down, they're not worth very much more than cover price. Other than NYX 3, with the first appearance of that girl Wolverine clone, there aren't many big first appearance comics that have appeared in the last 10 years.

VALIANT put out quality comics for the first year and a half; then, when they looked at back issue prices and thought they should be marketing their books toward that group of comic buyers and increasing print runs because back issue sales were so high, then they fell from grace and the company was never able to regain the steam it once had.

Early VALIANT equals quality and are very collectible; later VALIANTS, when the company focused on what would sell on the back issue market, are terrible and can be found in quantity in 10-for-a-dollar boxes. VALIANT died an early death in the 1990s because of that. It's something I hope never happens to DC and Marvel, so I really hope the execs at both companies focus on their creative output and don't listen to blob.

[Foolkiller]

I think you and I are in agreement for the most part...

[Darthdiesel]

great read

[the blob]

"I do think it's hilarious that you ended your statement with "So there!!" That's so funny, because it shows me how childish you are"

 

If you couldn't tell that my tongue was firmly implanted in my cheek then you're the crybaby here! Do I have to use smiley faces?

[the blob]

Anyway, I'll say it for the 16h time, I'm not saying comic cos should be tailoring their efforts to create a solid back issue market for their products, but that they should perhaps delay a little bit before they kill that back issue market with respect to a particular item. (Admittedly, JLA 166-168 is NOT a good example for this proposition.) Let's take Hush, the TPB was out like what, 23 minutes after the last issue? Marvel and DC didn't used to act that quickly. Not only does it hurt any premiums for back issue values (does the Hush set even go for cover price anymore?), but it firmly implants in many consumers' mind the notion of "why bother buying the monthly when the TPB is just around the corner." Personally, I think comics are more fun with the weekly flood of new issues, rather than the big companies putting out a couple of paperbacks a month, like getting 200 pages of Spidey quarterly or whatever.

 

Moreover, if car companies make secondary market value part of their sales pitch, why should it not even be considered by comic cos?

[Timulty]

Part of the problem is the push in reader attitudes. Spending $18.00 on 6 books over the space of a 6 month run or spending $9.00 for the tpb. I hear this about moderns more and more. Well, I could collect Superman/Batman 1-8 and spend $24 or wait for the tpb. I think, eventually the comic companies will just go to tpb format. More along the lines of what format manga is currently published.

[Sal]

it's called "cannibalising," and it's a strategy.

 

DC knows that there will always be people - mostly hard-core fans - who will buy the issues no matter when the TPB is released. they also know there are fans - mostly drive-by fans who aren't collectors of that particular series - who will buy the TPB no matter when the TPB is released.

 

so they strike while the iron is hot in an attempt to capture as much of the market as possible. TPBs have GOT to be cheaper to print, since there's a lot less digital paste-up (not having to wait for advertisers to send in their ads, having all the art already digitised and coloured, plates already run for the issues etc), so they can afford to charge less for the TPB.

 

they could not give two ****s whether the back issue market gets affected by any of this. they're already thinking four or five months ahead and trying to position themselves to do better down the road.

 

it's all numbers, man. the strategy that brings in the bigger numbers always wins. you and collectors like you are the collateral damage that's probably - and i mean definitely - been accounted for

[matewan1990]

Anyway, I'll say it for the 16h time, I'm not saying comic cos should be tailoring their efforts to create a solid back issue market for their products, but that they should perhaps delay a little bit before they kill that back issue market with respect to a particular item. (Admittedly, JLA 166-168 is NOT a good example for this proposition.) Let's take Hush, the TPB was out like what, 23 minutes after the last issue? Marvel and DC didn't used to act that quickly. Not only does it hurt any premiums for back issue values (does the Hush set even go for cover price anymore?), but it firmly implants in many consumers' mind the notion of "why bother buying the monthly when the TPB is just around the corner." Personally, I think comics are more fun with the weekly flood of new issues, rather than the big companies putting out a couple of paperbacks a month, like getting 200 pages of Spidey quarterly or whatever.

 

Moreover, if car companies make secondary market value part of their sales pitch, why should it not even be considered by comic cos?

 

You just don't quit, do you?

Why should a comic company delay their publishing schedule of trade paperbacks to keep a back issue market alive that doesn't even profit them?

See, you keep reaching for anything to make an argument with and your arguments are not valid.

Comic companies want the shelf space in book stores that they used to not have, therefore, they put out trade paperbacks soon after the comic storylines end to capitalize on the hotness of the individual issue sales (due to the storyline). They figure they'll use the good press the arc's getting to promote sales on a trade paperback.

See, here's a point that makes this NEW argument invalid: DC waits to put out its trade paperbacks, sometimes waiting many months to do so, as in the case of Identity Crisis (there's the JLA 166-168 tie-in again), which didn't come out in hardcover until several months after the final issue of the miniseries was released. Marvel, on the other hand, takes the opposite approach and many times puts out a trade right after a storyline ends. But, I'm sure they're not sitting around in a conference room, chewing on their fingernails saying "How do we keep our individual issue as big sellers on the back issue market if we put out a trade so soon?"

You've completely deviated from your original topic, which was something along the lines of "How dare a comic company executive NOT care about the back issue market and the collectors who keep comic STORES in business with their purchases of old DCs — even though the comic companies don't make one red cent off of back issue sales!" Now, you're on trade paperbacks killing the sales of back issues...

"Let's take Hush, the TPB was out like what, 23 minutes after the last issue? Marvel and DC didn't used to act that quickly. Not only does it hurt any premiums for back issue values (does the Hush set even go for cover price anymore?), but it firmly implants in many consumers' mind the notion of 'why bother buying the monthly when the TPB is just around the corner.'"

Here we go again... why don't you read my posts and understand that comic companies should never worry about the back issue market, whether an issue sells good in back issue bins, or whether trade paperbacks kill back issue values?

Stick with one topic, or, put them into different threads where people like me can avoid people like you and your idiotic comments (there I go again, referring to your comments and still NOT calling you names).

I'm done with this thread. You go ahead and preach to the masses your falsehoods on how evil comic execs are because of their disdain for the back issue market (we all know you're a speculator who's crying about losing money when you should have been reading instead of bagging and hoarding). Me, I'm going to take the time I've been spending replying on this thread to read a few good comics, no matter if they're quarter-box mainstays or not.

It's been fun, guys. See the rest of you on other threads.

Mike B.

[the blob]

no, you don't quit. i started the dopey thread and you kept coming back over and over again. i was just marking my territory.

 

as for being a speculator -- I suppose if buying stuff out of 50 cent bins is speculation, then you got me. that's where I got the JLA 167. i think I can still probably make money on that one.

[whetteon]