OA collecting - how big is the hobby, really?

[COI]

This is the attitude that should be taken with any hobby/collectible....pay what you can afford to lose, and do it because you love what you're buying.

 

I also think that the amount of new blood entering OA is going to dwindle as time goes on. Some of the prices I'm seeing, particularly for modern art, are outrageous. 7-10K for a Turner cover(pencils only)? 5K for Finch cover? 15K for a Jim lee cover, and 2.5K for an unpublished pin-up? That's enough to make any prospective collector run the other way.

[COI]

With comics there are more alternatives. Most collectors can get an AF #15 if they REALLY want one......it may not be a 9.4, but it's still an AF #15. But if you covet a McFarlane Spidey cover, you've either got the cash or you don't. And that's assuming you even know where the one you want is, and that the owner is willing to part with it. That's a pretty daunting prospect for a new collector, if you ask me.

 

 

[rob_react]

I also think that the amount of new blood entering OA is going to dwindle as time goes on. Some of the prices I'm seeing, particularly for modern art, are outrageous. 7-10K for a Turner cover(pencils only)? 5K for Finch cover? 15K for a Jim lee cover, and 2.5K for an unpublished pin-up? That's enough to make any prospective collector run the other way.

 

Unless they decide to look at other, less expensive artists. As easy (and fun) thing to do since here are huge piles of inexpensive artwork out there from well-recieved series by "name" artists. I buy pages all the time for $10-200 from series that I really enjoy and couldn't be happier about it

 

Not everyone comes into the hobby looking to buy Jim Lee art.

[comix4fun]

Lets try and get our facts straight. The Tony Christopher Collection was only sold SIX years ago. Feb of 2000. Considering the shear volume of Tony's collection, I think the Kirby market has recovered reasonably well in those 6 years, but obviously when I look at the prices of some choice Romita, Ditko Spider-man and Byrne X-men. Kirby has still got a bit of catching up to do considering that he is the King.

 

Clem...

 

 

Sorry Clem,

Was not trying to annoy you...I was confusing the Christopher Collection with the large amount of Kirby that came out of Sotheby's & Christie's between 1992 and 1994. Prices hit some big numbers back then and stayed pretty level until the last 2 years or so, obviously that was assisted by the Christopher collection in 2000. Whenever I think of Kirby pages I think of Tony Christopher....but I was trying to reference those first few big comic art auctions that dropped a nice number of high quality pieces on the market at the same time.

 

I was not disparaging Kirby, I was using the sales as an example of what a large amount of material can do to a market...albeit temporarily.

 

Best,

Chris

[delekkerste]

How is this different than comic book collecting? Beginners don't even dream of owning a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15, or any of the first 10 issues of ASM or FF, etc. They start small, accrue wealth, trade up, etc. And, many are happy with what they can actually afford, and limit themselves to "minor keys", complete runs of lesser titles or characters, or other focuses that don't overextend themselves.

 

I'm not saying that comic book collecting doesn't have its own issues, but the cost of admission is set relatively low. There's a still a ton of nice stuff you can buy for under a hundred bucks, let alone a few hundred or a grand or two. You don't need to be a successful cardiac surgeon to be able to afford decent comics! A Miller Daredevil fan can get a 9.6-graded copy of DD #158 for a few hundred bucks whereas a page from that book can set you back up to $10k as you said.

 

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be counting on a mass influx of collectors into the high end of the art market or to even see many new collectors, who don't have the benefit of having "found money" from art acquired years ago, climbing up to that level in the future. While prices may have "felt" expensive in 1999, there's a big difference between $750 expensive and $10k expensive (let alone $20k or $40k)! That is especially true since inflation-adjusted incomes have been essentially flat for 5 years while prices on desirable art has compounded at probably 20-30% a year (mean reversion, anyone?) It really does limit the amount of people who can play in that sandbox and I think it will keep OA as a niche market. Even at the lower end, given the choice between being able to buy nice comics or very niche artwork, third-tier examples by popular artists or essentially disposable Modern pages for a comparable price, I think that most people will continue to opt for the former. I don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push, that is just my observation based on the facts of the situation.

[Thomas]

I've got to agree with delekkerste here. I've only discovered OA about a year ago. I think I've gathered a pretty decent collection based on what I like and within a budget.

 

I've got a family, a mortgage, car payments, etc. and OA is pretty far down that list. There is no way I probably or would ever own a page in excess of 1000.00 unless it's one I've bought for significantly less and it's appreciated. In fact my own personal budget is 500.00 maximum per page no matter how much I want or like it.

 

I do believe the people that own the top end pieces are people that got the art for dirt cheap and were lucky enough to have it appreciate to the values they're at now and thus are able to buy/trade/sell at those prices. Like delekkerstate said there's no way someone new can get into that portion of the hobby unless they had some serious influx of free cash or some wicked job where they had that disposable income like that.

 

I hear Westform saying he spent 40k and 20k on pieces of art and I can't even fathom that.

 

This hobby (at the top end) is definitely a niche market and anybody thinking otherwise is disillusioned.

 

With that being said there are definitely a lot of affordable pages out there and for me a lot of the fun is trying to hunt for the best pages/price. Trying to get the best bang for the buck is part of the fun for me and without a doubt is the entry point to the hobby for new collectors.

[Mr. Zipper]

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be counting on a mass influx of collectors into the high end of the art market or to even see many new collectors, who don't have the benefit of having "found money" from art acquired years ago, climbing up to that level in the future. While prices may have "felt" expensive in 1999, there's a big difference between $750 expensive and $10k expensive (let alone $20k or $40k)! That is especially true since inflation-adjusted incomes have been essentially flat for 5 years while prices on desirable art has compounded at probably 20-30% a year (mean reversion, anyone?) It really does limit the amount of people who can play in that sandbox and I think it will keep OA as a niche market. Even at the lower end, given the choice between being able to buy nice comics or very niche artwork, third-tier examples by popular artists or essentially disposable Modern pages for a comparable price, I think that most people will continue to opt for the former. I don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push, that is just my observation based on the facts of the situation.

 

I agree with your points Gene... the barriers to entry seem very high in certain segments of the OA market. I laughed when I read the post from the gentlemen spending $60K and kinda talking about it like anyone could do it if they played their cards right.

 

I've dabbled a bit over the past 10 years and was lucky enough to get a few Byrne pages (and similar) at prices that seem very inexpensive today.

 

However, as a recent entrant in the hobby (hopefully in a more serious way), I look at OA the same way that I look at comic collecting. Short of winning the lottery, I'm never going to own a high grade copy of AF #15 or a Edgar Church early Action Comic, and likewise, I'll never own a McFarlane Cover, Ditko splash or a Frazetta.

 

So, like most collectors, I have to settle for "less" and set my sights lower.

 

In my case, "less" means a Kirby panel page from the 70s, or a Buscema panel page from Conan #100-something. Frankly, I think that splash pages are grossly overrated in many many cases and a well-composed panel page has more appeal to me because it actually showcases the fine art of comic storytelling panel by panel.

 

So, I agree that the barriers to entry to Covers and Splash pages are very high and it will probably always be a niche hobby. There just aren't enough people that can regularly drop 4 or 5 figures on OA.

 

However, there are plenty of very nice $100 - $400 panel pages out there from masters of the art. I think of it as John Buscema spent just as much time and put as much thought into a [well composed] Conan panel page as he did on a cover... and the artwork came from the same hand either way.

[Mr. Zipper]

I hear Westform saying he spent 40k and 20k on pieces of art and I can't even fathom that.

 

This hobby (at the top end) is definitely a niche market and anybody thinking otherwise is disillusioned.

 

With that being said there are definitely a lot of affordable pages out there and for me a lot of the fun is trying to hunt for the best pages/price. Trying to get the best bang for the buck is part of the fun for me and without a doubt is the entry point to the hobby for new collectors.

 

 

Wow, our posts are similar. I didn't read yours first... honest!

[Timulty]

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be counting on a mass influx of collectors into the high end of the art market or to even see many new collectors, who don't have the benefit of having "found money" from art acquired years ago, climbing up to that level in the future. While prices may have "felt" expensive in 1999, there's a big difference between $750 expensive and $10k expensive (let alone $20k or $40k)! That is especially true since inflation-adjusted incomes have been essentially flat for 5 years while prices on desirable art has compounded at probably 20-30% a year (mean reversion, anyone?) It really does limit the amount of people who can play in that sandbox and I think it will keep OA as a niche market. Even at the lower end, given the choice between being able to buy nice comics or very niche artwork, third-tier examples by popular artists or essentially disposable Modern pages for a comparable price, I think that most people will continue to opt for the former. I don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push, that is just my observation based on the facts of the situation.

 

I agree. For me, I collect OA to enhance my comic collection. To me a perfect collection of comics must have a few OA pages/splash, a cover, prime examples of magazines from the selected genre, reference materials(OSGS, CBMS, various auction catalogues etc), sketches and more importantly comics. Maybe some memorabilia/toys. When you walk into the room and people see this they realize the true meaning of a collection I believe that is how quite a few of the "low end" guys, such as myself ,collect. We would rather blow 3K on a killer book than 3K on a not so killer page. That's my two cents.

[CW]

I have been lucky enough to find a pleasant divide in my collecting tastes. Where my Comic collecting tastes focus on Gold and Silver-age books my art tastes stay well lodged in modern art with the occasional bronze piece. It is fun for me to get art to books I am reading off the newstand (or comic shop shelf, to be more accurate), Modern splashes, and pin ups. I find more meaning in the ability to have a closer connection to the art or artist. Someone I talked to at a show or a book I read when it came out and enjoyed immensly. Even getting a published piece straight from the artist or inker seems more exciting to me. I am a younger collector though so I would guess my reaction to the newer pieces isn't too much different from a person buying a Byrne or Kirby that perhaps they read off the newstand or had a similar experience with. My gut reaction to the OA hobby when I entered a little less than a year ago was one of shock at the initial expense of getting a piece. I have since come to grips with it but I felt a little more comfortable entering comics 13 years ago as the pricing seems a bit more organized. I guess that's the nature of the beast.

-CW

[heartened]

How is this different than comic book collecting? Beginners don't even dream of owning a copy of Amazing Fantasy #15, or any of the first 10 issues of ASM or FF, etc. They start small, accrue wealth, trade up, etc. And, many are happy with what they can actually afford, and limit themselves to "minor keys", complete runs of lesser titles or characters, or other focuses that don't overextend themselves.

 

I'm not saying that comic book collecting doesn't have its own issues, but the cost of admission is set relatively low. There's a still a ton of nice stuff you can buy for under a hundred bucks, let alone a few hundred or a grand or two. You don't need to be a successful cardiac surgeon to be able to afford decent comics! A Miller Daredevil fan can get a 9.6-graded copy of DD #158 for a few hundred bucks whereas a page from that book can set you back up to $10k as you said.

 

All I'm saying is that I wouldn't be counting on a mass influx of collectors into the high end of the art market or to even see many new collectors, who don't have the benefit of having "found money" from art acquired years ago, climbing up to that level in the future. While prices may have "felt" expensive in 1999, there's a big difference between $750 expensive and $10k expensive (let alone $20k or $40k)! That is especially true since inflation-adjusted incomes have been essentially flat for 5 years while prices on desirable art has compounded at probably 20-30% a year (mean reversion, anyone?) It really does limit the amount of people who can play in that sandbox and I think it will keep OA as a niche market. Even at the lower end, given the choice between being able to buy nice comics or very niche artwork, third-tier examples by popular artists or essentially disposable Modern pages for a comparable price, I think that most people will continue to opt for the former. I don't have an axe to grind or an agenda to push, that is just my observation based on the facts of the situation.

 

 

Hi Gene,

 

I see your point, but here are some more thoughts:

 

I think what we're seeing is the difficulty in going between these two hobbies. In comic books, the hierarchy is (in general) Golden Age is more expensive than Silver Age, which is more expensive than Bronze Age, which is more expensive than Copper Age. Whereas in art, the Ages don't really matter. The artist is most important, and OA from the "greats" from each Age are similar in value. Kirby, Ditko, Perez, Miller, Wrightson, Steranko, Byrne, Bolland, Shultz, Stevens may all be exactly the same value!

 

Taken in this context, comparing the ability to buy a DD 158 in 9.6 versus the interior OA from that issue is not a fair comparison at all. The comic book is an affordable minor key from an Age that is (in general) less expensive, whereas the art is a blue chip example by one of the greatest artists across all Ages of comics.

 

Frankly, the collector that buys DD 158 or other minor keys should be setting their sites a lot lower than buying the OA from that issue. It's a whole other league, price-wise. Unfortunately, just because the book is cheap doesn't mean the respective art is. Conversely, there are plenty of expensive books where the OA is cheaper than you would think.

[shapip]

I've been collecting comics for about 3 years (although I did have a collection in grade school and again in high school which I sold off at that time). During the last 3 years I found I was getting into more expensive golden age books through buys and sells. Then I decided to try out OA and when I got my first peice I was smitten. I decided to buy the corresponding comic book and read it - not caring at all about the book's value or slabbing it. This pattern repeated itself with subsequent OA purchases and frankly, I feel I've gotten much more enjoyment from collecting OA than I did when I was collecting comics and only reading the reprints. The magic I had when I collected and read comics in high school, which I think was partially lost by only focussing on slabbed books, was back. I decided to sell off a large portion of my comic collection to justify some relatively big OA purchases. I don't see my own experience as that unique. I think there are probably a lot of people like me who got back into comics, focusing at first on valuable slabbed books, who then moved onto OA, selling a portion of their comic collection to justify large OA purchases.

-Peter

[batman_fan]

I have been buying OA for quite a while, but I was always a comic collector first (this is still the case). I can't afford a Romita Spider-man cover, but I have been able to slowly accumulate a reasonable collection of art. I have yet to sell anything I bought (although I am thinking about selling some Buscema panel Avengers pages). I follow the same approach a lot of others do. I set my sites on reasonable pages and go slow and steady making sure I never over extend myself. Using this approach, I have been able to buy two incredible Buscema splash pages from the Avengers, several Colan splash pages including a Daredevil page from a Black Panther issue, plus several others. I always try to remember, it isn't a sprint, its a marathon.

 

[tth2]

You and I both started collecting at the same time. I ask you: when we bought art in 2000, did we feel prices were already too high and we already missed the boat? I know I did. Compared to the new buyers, I'm one of the "lucky ones" who got in "early", but it sure as Hell didn't feel that way at the time.

Great point, Hari, and something I've said repeatedly in the comic forums. Very little is ever clearly cheap at the time it's up for sale, otherwise everyone would be buying it hand over fist. It's only in retrospect that it becomes cheap, as the price appreciates. All you can do is buy what you like and hold it, and let the chips fall where they may.

[tth2]

While prices may have "felt" expensive in 1999, there's a big difference between $750 expensive and $10k expensive (let alone $20k or $40k)!

So you're looking at this in terms of absolute dollars now? Perhaps at $750 it was extremely undervalued and at $10K it's properly valued, so the fact that the increase way outpaces inflation during that period doesn't mean it's overvalued today.

[Scheradon]

I just entered the OA hobby as many others here apparently have too. I'm focusing more on collecting pieces that fit my comic collecting habits, so that means BA Marvel. I really don't care too much about who the artist is as much as it being a title I collect and a piece of art I like.

 

So far, other's focus on big name artists have kept me out of the loop in regards to artists such as Kirby and Romita, but I did just pick up my first piece of OA. I spent a whopping $27.01 for a Shogun Warriors page by Mike Vosburg that has a very nice Raydeen featured on it. I'm also in the middle of buying my first cover art...another Shogun Warriors piece by Herb Trimpe for under $1,000. Not too bad to me, especially since I collect Shogun Warriors as well as BA comics and my favorite character is Raydeen from the series.

 

I can see how other's collecting interests could keep them from getting in the game, but for me, there's still a niche I can afford.

[comicartfan]

I also think that the amount of new blood entering OA is going to dwindle as time goes on. Some of the prices I'm seeing, particularly for modern art, are outrageous. 7-10K for a Turner cover(pencils only)? 5K for Finch cover? 15K for a Jim lee cover, and 2.5K for an unpublished pin-up? That's enough to make any prospective collector run the other way.

 

Unless they decide to look at other, less expensive artists. As easy (and fun) thing to do since here are huge piles of inexpensive artwork out there from well-recieved series by "name" artists. I buy pages all the time for $10-200 from series that I really enjoy and couldn't be happier about it

 

Not everyone comes into the hobby looking to buy Jim Lee art.

 

Well said Rob.

 

I come from the "new batch of oa collectors", having just gotten into it hard core in the last 18 months or so. I was in shock of the prices that items went for and continue to be awe struck by people like Dan F. or Eric Roberts or Stephen Fishler or any other BSD that can and do drop big bucks on items.

 

When I first got into art, deciding to sell all my comics was a hard decision. I had gotten some pretty rare DCs that were either the highest graded or tied. Some I got ungraded and got a great price or others I just got a break on...either way, when i looked around at the prices that covers were going for, I was like " no way am I ever going to have a cover !" - I felt that it was out of my reach.

 

Then I remembered my first big comic book buy. I bought an ungraded ASM 40 from Yahoo auctions and paid a staggering 150 bucks ! - I thought it was insane of me....and then as I learned more, discovered CGC and had more experiance, I realized that 1k wasn't a big deal. There are ways to fiance a big purchase and time payments are the best. You don't break the bank and you don't have to reach for the plastic. I still have a mortage, truck payment, child support, student loans, etc...and I was able to buy an Alex Ross cover, Bolland cover and many other pieces that at one time I thought were unreachable. While I won't be spending 20k for an ASM Romita cover, I will gladly spend 5k for something....and have. But I didn't do it overnight and I had to make certain sacrifices....meaning when overtime was available, I grabbed it....somehow, when you have a goal, you find a way.

 

People will start off in the hobby small. No one jumps into it and starts buying 30k covers or 15k splashes. Over time, you can start to build a collection, trade up and move onto bigger pieces. If that is your goal. But to think that people will be scared off by the prices, that isn't true. As Rob said, there are tons and tons of reasonably priced pages that are terriific examples.

 

I think the hobby will continue to grow, prices will rise in some cases and drop in others...there will be speculation, "the sky is falling " theorists and hopefully at the end of the day, we'll be in good shape. If people on here say that they buy their art/comics because they love them and they don't care if they make money or lose money, they are lying. Sorry, but no one wants to take a bath on what they've bought. I spent 15k on art last year and about 3k this year so far and I don't want my collection to be worthless....I don't expect to retire on my collection either. I will probably one day "cash out" and I will hopefully see some return on my collection.

 

I am always amazed by people that have such strong opinions, rant about market crashes and how people should wake up and put there money elsewhere and all this nonsense....yet turn around and proudly display a piece or comic they spent 5 figures on....

This is to me is "actions speak louder than words" ....while everyone has a opinion and is entitled to voice it, (which is why we are all on here) I have to wonder what exactly is their motive.

If the hobby is so bad and people are so naive for buying this stuff, then move onto something else.....seems simple...

[delekkerste]

So you're looking at this in terms of absolute dollars now? Perhaps at $750 it was extremely undervalued and at $10K it's properly valued, so the fact that the increase way outpaces inflation during that period doesn't mean it's overvalued today.

 

Of course, for something that generates no earnings, dividends or interest income, valuation is largely a matter of psychology and the amount of liquidity out there. I don't think too many people would argue that, over the very long-term, prices of collectibles are highly correlated with income trends, so that a parabolic rise in prices coupled with flat income growth will eventually suffer from mean reversion. I'm sure $750 was undervalued; we can debate on whether $10k is properly valued or whether it is just another function of the global liquidity bubble. You know where I stand.

[delekkerste]

If people on here say that they buy their art/comics because they love them and they don't care if they make money or lose money, they are lying. Sorry, but no one wants to take a bath on what they've bought.

 

...

 

I am always amazed by people that have such strong opinions, rant about market crashes and how people should wake up and put there money elsewhere and all this nonsense....yet turn around and proudly display a piece or comic they spent 5 figures on....

This is to me is "actions speak louder than words" ....while everyone has a opinion and is entitled to voice it, (which is why we are all on here) I have to wonder what exactly is their motive.

If the hobby is so bad and people are so naive for buying this stuff, then move onto something else.....seems simple...

 

This sounds like a pretty undisguised jibe in my direction. First of all, I have not once said this "hobby is so bad" or that "people are so naive for buying this stuff". I have expressed an opinion, based on the facts of the situation and my own experience in dealing with markets, of what I think is going to happen in the future. That is at odds with the consensus, to be sure, though the consensus is always wrong at inflection points which I believe we are at/nearing.

 

I have *not*, however, told anybody to sell out or to move onto something else. From an *investment* standpoint, I have said there are better places to put your money, but I haven't told any fan/collector not to buy OA because that's their own business. There should be no wondering "what is exactly is [my] motive". I'm not sure if your comment about people lying if they say they do not care if they make or lose money was directed at me or Dan F. and his hyperbolic comments in his last post, but I can tell you that I personally have no intention to *ever* sell my OA unless I have no interested heirs to pass it down to. I'm not counting on realizing a penny from my collection in the future - I am happy to spend what I spend (which I'm sure is fairly low on a percentage basis compared to most collectors) so I can enjoy the artwork throughout my lifetime. Might as well buy stuff I like rather than following the recent trend of ponying up big bucks for contemporary fine art of questionable merit. There's no agenda here and the fact that people are getting so worked up about what I'm saying leads me to take a page from Tth2's book and say that maybe it's a good time to be a contrarian about the OA hobby/market.

[COI]

Sorry, but no one wants to take a bath on what they've bought.

 

Mike, obviously I wouldn't want my pieces to become "worthless" overnight...no one does. But the only reason I let myself get into this hobby in the first place is by promising myself that I will only spend what I can afford to lose, and not a penny more. I do that so I can sleep at night, and so that I can buy without remorse. I will not put myself in debt, or risk an unstable financial future for the sake of art, or any other pursuit of mine for that matter. I'm in my 20's, and at LEAST 40 years from retirement. A lot can happen in 40 years.

 

There is an Alex Ross piece that was auctioned off that I would have LOVED to own, which ended up at around 20K. I could have cashed in on a couple of investments, dipped into my savings, and bought it, but it's just too much money for me to spend at this point in my life, especially all at once on one piece. Spending 20K over 2-3 years is one thing, but dropping it all at once like that would have caused me to temporarily sacrifice a few things that I was not willing to. Sure, I would have had the piece, but I would have felt uneasy everytime I looked at it.