Intriguing Definitional Changes In New 2006 Overstreet Guide

[lou_fine]

my overall sense on what happenned, and Ill be sorry for saying it maybe when Marc comes back tomorrow with the answers, is that Overstreet et al saw the direction CGC was going last fall in regards to PCS etc. And -- as they have been forced to do the last few years, they took another step into this Brave New CGC World by going along with CGCs pressing stance. They realize to their chagrin that after 30 years on top, things have changed. They no longer lead, but follow. And are afraid that if they stray too far from the pack, {especially CGC, the leaders of the pack} they will be finished.

 

Unfortunately for them, (as my personal timeline has it, and from an anti-pressing viewpoint), they moved too soon. Now that CGC has backed off on PCS, perhaps the tide is turning backward a bit to the OLD pre-CGC thinking that Overstreet ruled alone. Overstreet could have waited to capitulate on the pressing issue a bit longer, sparing them this little controversy in the making. Instead it was made in the mindset of catching up FASTER in the direction CGC was going last fall.

 

Aman;

 

This is actually a very plausible theory, especially when you consider that Overstreet now also includes a definition for conservation which they did not before this year's edition of the guide. Coincidentially, their definition lines up quite well with what CGC was attempting to foist onto the market a few months ago.

 

In addition, this theory is much more realistic than believeing that Geppi is meeting up with Ewert in darkened alleyways arranging the next trim and press job. Where do all the conspiracy theorists get the idea that Geppi is spending hours down in his basement or lab pressing his own books. Believe me, he has much better things to do than that in order to earn a few dollars

[EastEnd]

Actually, I spoke out against both of those pinheads on these boards.

 

All you bangwagon-jumpers did... AFTER it was all uncovered, but those who offered up evidence early or stated business dealings with Ewert, were slammed as "conspiracy theorists" and berated at every turn.

 

But I guess you want us to forget all about how you and your cronies supported Ewert initially?

 

Get your facts straight -- I never defended Ewert or Schmell. In fact, I've never bought a book from either of them (nor will I) due to suspicions I had even before I joined these boards over their doctoring of books. But anyone that stretches those two incidents into a massive conspiracy among virtually all of comicdom's powerbrokers to defraud the hobby is extremely gullible.

[EastEnd]

my overall sense on what happenned, and Ill be sorry for saying it maybe when Marc comes back tomorrow with the answers, is that Overstreet et al saw the direction CGC was going last fall in regards to PCS etc. And -- as they have been forced to do the last few years, they took another step into this Brave New CGC World by going along with CGCs pressing stance. They realize to their chagrin that after 30 years on top, things have changed. They no longer lead, but follow. And are afraid that if they stray too far from the pack, {especially CGC, the leaders of the pack} they will be finished.

 

Unfortunately for them, (as my personal timeline has it, and from an anti-pressing viewpoint), they moved too soon. Now that CGC has backed off on PCS, perhaps the tide is turning backward a bit to the OLD pre-CGC thinking that Overstreet ruled alone. Overstreet could have waited to capitulate on the pressing issue a bit longer, sparing them this little controversy in the making. Instead it was made in the mindset of catching up FASTER in the direction CGC was going last fall.

 

Aman;

 

This is actually a very plausible theory, especially when you consider that Overstreet now also includes a definition for conservation which they did not before this year's edition of the guide. Coincidentially, their definition lines up quite well with what CGC was attempting to foist onto the market a few months ago.

 

In addition, this theory is much more realistic than believeing that Geppi is meeting up with Ewert in darkened alleyways arranging the next trim and press job. Where do the whackos get the idea that Geppi is spending hours down in his basement or lab pressing his own books.

 

I agree wholeheartedly... spot on.

[Scheradon]

how as a company though could they state that position without losing credibility since they cannot detect it?

 

And you wonder how fiction becomes fact - with enough repetition.

 

Pressing can be detected, but like most things in life, it cannot be detected 100% of the time with absolute certainty. That is far different than saying it "cannot be detected", like it's some rogue technique that is absolutely totally undetectable, 100% of the time.

 

But how does pressing then differ from trimming, CT or any other restoration technique that has been proven to elude CGC on occasion?

 

 

Like I said, they already have their hands full with trying to detect the micro-trimming. Now add pressing to that which they could not detect with any consistency. It just seems clear why they would go the route of considering it "conservation" and not "restoration".

 

The difference with trimming is that they know where to draw the battle line. They have to be able to offer some type of detection to render their services and trimming would cry far greater foul than a pressed book among the community.

[Scheradon]

I've been thinking about this...

 

Just say that even if every single employee at CGC from the top to the bottom personally felt that pressing was indeed restoration, how as a company though could they state that position without losing credibility since they cannot detect it?

 

There are only two solutions I see for them:

 

1) Find a way to detect pressing, then tout that as a great advance for finding restoration and further protecting the hobby.

 

or

 

2) Keep on denying that it's restoration and putting any influence they may have within the hobby to spread that philosophy.

 

There's just no way from a business standpoint that they can have the position of pressing being resto and still have the buying public remain confident in their restoration detection skills. They've already shown to have their hands full with micro-trimming, can you imagine adding currently undetectable pressing to that mix?

 

I wish there were a way, as I'm in the pressing is resto camp, but I think their business model doesn't allow them to be there with me.

 

good point. But I along with others wish (and still hope) CGC will do nothing to encourage pressing and other forms of hidden restoration. By sanctioning it (whether because they cant detect it (which they deny) or because they do not think it IS restoration) CGC CAUSES OR ENABLES more pressing. There will always be crooks out there. Why not fight them and strive to limit the damage to the crooks.... instead of enlisting "honest" collectors and dealers, helping them cash in.

 

But, in CGCs defense, if pressing isnt restoration, whats the big deal?

 

Yes, you can count me in among the those that wish CGC would step up and go against the dealer grain of pressing being ok. But, like I said, if they cannot detect it with any certainty or consistency, then how can they do this from a business model? It's just much easier to give in to their biggest clients and change the standard to fit their abilities. If the community and hobby allows it, then it will continue on this way.

 

This is why I continually voice my opinion about pressing and try to educate others (who do not know CGC allows it) on the subject. Just look at all the ebayers who buy slabbed books that never frequent these boards. Many of them are probably unaware that the blue label book they are buying could be pressed. I know I wasn't until I joined these boards.

 

As for what the big deal is...I'm not willing to let CGC be the authorative voice to my opinion of what isn't restoration. Those of us who disagree with their point of view need to keep pushing it's importance to us, so that they may eventually fine tune a method to reliably detect it, thus perhaps influencing a policy change within their business.

[esquirecomics]

As soon as I know more from my conversations with Gemstone, I'll report it here.

[Aman619]

I wouldnt mind if CGC missed 9 out of 10 pressed books, as long as they were continually trying to improve their techniques. And so long as they were not promoting it. Thet are no longer in the pressing business, so thats a step back in the right direction.

[Red Hook]

I wouldnt mind if CGC missed 9 out of 10 pressed books, as long as they were continually trying to improve their techniques. And so long as they were not promoting it. Thet are no longer in the pressing business, so thats a step back in the right direction.

 

Aman, why would they be making an effort to detect pressed books when they've been encouraging pressing and helping feed pressed books into the market place for years? They're not going to go out and start declaring books pressed, unless they're so botched up it's irrefutable. They're not going to turn around and stick a knife in the back of all the BSDs that have been getting their books pancaked at PCS. Face it. We're on the outside looking in. And the shades will continue to be drawn.

 

Red

[Ze-man]

my overall sense on what happenned, and Ill be sorry for saying it maybe when Marc comes back tomorrow with the answers.

 

 

Aman, You have no need to be sorry. No matter what answers Mark might get from the higher ups at Gemstone, I think it is safe they will not say anything close to what you spelled out in your post.. Even if you are 100% correct. They just aint gonna come out and say stuff like that, at least not in a "made for public statement."

 

And no offense Mark, I hope you find out what you are looking for, but I dont wanna hear from you, I wanna hear from them. They read this board enough to know how to make a post. I will assume if they dont care to deal with it personally, then they dont consider it worth their time.

 

Why do I feel like I will be waiting awhile? Hope I am wrong.

 

Ze-

[esquirecomics]

my overall sense on what happenned, and Ill be sorry for saying it maybe when Marc comes back tomorrow with the answers.

 

 

Aman, You have no need to be sorry. No matter what answers Mark might get from the higher ups at Gemstone, I think it is safe they will not say anything close to what you spelled out in your post.. Even if you are 100% correct. They just aint gonna come out and say stuff like that, at least not in a "made for public statement."

 

And no offense Mark, I hope you find out what you are looking for, but I dont wanna hear from you, I wanna hear from them. They read this board enough to know how to make a post. I will assume if they dont care to deal with it personally, then they dont consider it worth their time.

 

Why do I feel like I will be waiting awhile? Hope I am wrong.

 

Ze-

 

No offense taken. My reporting back to everyone is not to replace Gemstone issuing a public comment, only to supplement or expedite the process.

[esquirecomics]

No information yet to report. Still waiting to hear back.

[Scheradon]

No information yet to report. Still waiting to hear back.

 

The ol run around. Hope you don't have to use the Freedom of Information Act to finally get an answer from them.

[Aman619]

well, this may be the old stonewall, or delay tactics, but until they give a partial or misleading answer its not really the 'old runaround' just yet. neh?

[ninanina]

Any dealer/advisor who agrees with Overstreet on this, distances himself from a certain percentage of collectors ..... and hey, they need these guys to survive. If they side with the collectors, they then have a problem with Overstreet.

 

So what kind of an opinion are you going to get from anyone that loses either way.

[TvComics]

Mark:

 

I posted the comment below in the Action #1 thread. In case you missed it, I have copied it below.

 

 

Something in the description caught my eye .........

 

"The restoration is considered to be moderate. It has been cleaned, pressed and reinforced."

 

Seems at least someone at Diamond International Galleries thinks that pressing is restoration...........

 

Full listing here: Action #1 on eBay offered by Diamond

 

Since Diamond Int Galleries is listing this Action #1 and they have mentioned Pressing as a restoration item in the description - there is a disconnect somewhere at Diamond. You may want to bring this up in your conversations with them.

 

Best,

Byron

[Timulty]

Perhaps, Diamond believes that it should disclose pressing at all times and that it is incidental(in this case) to the restoration. I believe this is something that many board members have wanted. FULL disclosure about the books that are sold. I don't see this as inconsistent.

[esquirecomics]

Mark:

 

I posted the comment below in the Action #1 thread. In case you missed it, I have copied it below.

 

 

Something in the description caught my eye .........

 

"The restoration is considered to be moderate. It has been cleaned, pressed and reinforced."

 

Seems at least someone at Diamond International Galleries thinks that pressing is restoration...........

 

Full listing here: Action #1 on eBay offered by Diamond

 

Since Diamond Int Galleries is listing this Action #1 and they have mentioned Pressing as a restoration item in the description - there is a disconnect somewhere at Diamond. You may want to bring this up in your conversations with them.

 

Best,

Byron

 

Except that even CGC, if I am not mistaken, considers pressing to be restoration when the work performed was in conjunction with cleaning. This type of pressing requires disassembly of the book, when "regular" pressing does not.

[Scheradon]

Mark:

 

I posted the comment below in the Action #1 thread. In case you missed it, I have copied it below.

 

 

Something in the description caught my eye .........

 

"The restoration is considered to be moderate. It has been cleaned, pressed and reinforced."

 

Seems at least someone at Diamond International Galleries thinks that pressing is restoration...........

 

Full listing here: Action #1 on eBay offered by Diamond

 

Since Diamond Int Galleries is listing this Action #1 and they have mentioned Pressing as a restoration item in the description - there is a disconnect somewhere at Diamond. You may want to bring this up in your conversations with them.

 

Best,

Byron

 

Except that even CGC, if I am not mistaken, considers pressing to be restoration when the work performed was in conjunction with cleaning. This type of pressing requires disassembly of the book, when "regular" pressing does not.

 

That's how I understand it as well.

[esquirecomics]

Still nothing new to report. I was told I would be called again. Nada.

[FlyingDonut]

Still nothing new to report. I was told I would be called again. Nada.

 

They knew you would be billing clients at RFK. With that offense, we're in for a long year.