I just soiled myself.....and I couldn't be happier.

[Foolkiller]

wow. interesting thread...

 

The machine rolls on, the machine rolls on --

[PedigreeMan]

OK, so let’s recap here…

 

We have Mr Schmell’s FF #1 listed on his site at a cool half-mil…9.6 with Off-White pages. This has been in his possession for close to ten years and in a slab for over five years.

 

You’d think that, after having the book in plastic for more than five years, and being convinced that the page quality was actually Off-White to White, an experienced seller like Mr Schmell would have covered all the bases before listing the book for sale? Apparently not.

 

A couple of days after the book is linked here, and a (facetious) comment is made regarding it needing White Pages to justify the price, it is whisked off to Sarasota and processed through a tier/submission process that hasn’t previously existed…it’s apparently called a ‘Page Quality Review (Because You Were Tough On PQ Back In 2000) But Not A Grade Review (Because You Were A Bit Loose On This Back In 2000)’.

 

Now, the book is either removed from the inner well (in which case it surely needs to be regraded, despite the option box Mr Schmell ticked?) or the page quality is gauged without removal (in which case CGC employees possess X-ray vision), but either way, most surprisingly, it jumps all the way up from Off-White straight to White…do not pass go, do not collect $200. This was actually better than Mr Schmell had previously publicly claimed, but coincidentally was what this board suggested it needed to justify the price tag.

 

The book retained its serial number (presumably because Mr Schmell also ticked the box on the submission form that gives this option, the ‘Please Ensure We Lose The Paper Trial On This Puppy’ box) and a new scan appears on his web-site of the new, improved FF #1, but without any disclosure regarding its recent history.

 

Now, given all of this (and the past and present monumental [embarrassing lack of self control]-ups)…how in god’s name can anyone…anyone…maintain support for, or belief in, either CGC, or their inner circle of cronies? It is totally beyond me how anybody can think this is anything other than rampant nepotism, designed not to preserve the ‘long-term health of the hobby’, but rather to squeeze the last red cent out of some poor schmuck and further line the pockets of someone who deserves nothing.

 

It is further evidence that, providing you know the Secret Squirrel Club handshake, CGC has no processes or standards, other than those you demand (remember Mr Schmell’s on-site box of goodies?). If you know which type of wine to bring to Sarasota as a present for Mr Borock, CGC are guardians of nothing other than your bank balance.

 

But then again, as bed partners, Mr Schmell and CGC are perfectly suited to each other, because Mr Schmell has the book listed on his site without any disclosure of the under-the-table improvement it recently obtained.

 

So, we’re the enemies of the hobby, the people who are destroying its future and spoiling things for the innocent collector? Give me a break! All we’re asking for is a level playing field for dealers and collectors alike, transparency and clearly defined standards from the premier grading company in the industry, and disclosure as to precisely what we’re buying.

 

How is that anything other than beneficial to the health of the hobby?

 

On the other side of the coin, the self-appointed ‘guardians’ of the industry have yet again proved themselves to be entirely committed to the playing of the system to the benefit of their bestest chums. At the same time, the Lauterbachs, Ewert, Schmells, Nelsons and Heritages of this world are deliberately and wilfully misleading (at very best) every poor they can get their claws into.

 

BTW, whilst we’re on the subject of Mr Schmell and his ‘custom’ CGC submissions, we’re all still waiting for the ‘evidence’ that he had promised would clear him of all charges relating to the ‘Trim JIM’. With all the cracking, pressing, resubbing, driving to Sarasota with a chilled bottle of Chardonay in the trunk and pimping the ‘8th Best Marvel Collection Of Strange Tales Between #131 and #144’ in the Marketplace, I understand he’s been rather busy, but even so…eight months?

 

It’s a good job that Mr Schmell’s turn-around time on CGC resubs isn’t quite so lengthy….

 

Geez, Nick, when you put it like that ...

 

(In all fairness -- and in order to not obfuscate the matter at hand any further -- Doug did provide evidence corroborating his initial story in the whole Trim JIM affair. The last 100 or so posts in that thread contains said evidence.

 

Unfortunately, the new evidence really didn't seem to exonerate him 100%. For some, there remain suspicious dates and actions that really can't be eliminated as coincidence without the use of a real good PI -- or someone with subpoena powers -- to check into things like phone and email records.

 

I do have to give the guy credit though -- he was consistent in his stories. )

 

Alan

[Aman619]

while there is clearly preferential treatment at play in this case, Im not so quick to tar and feather either Doug or CGC as strongly as some. This event while a tad smelly, pales IMO in comparison to the thousands of other issues (books) CGC has let slide into their blue slabs. Remember we are talking about a singular book. The "best" FF1 known so far. Do that many of you really think its page quality makes that much of a difference to its final value? If its a soft 9.6, that another thing, but if you agree that its really a 9.6 (meaning a touch better than the 9.4s) OW pages arent a deal breaker. I am sure the post made here was in jest. As for the timing, sure it looks suspicious. I guess. Doug's owned the book for a long time. So why now? And what was the reason it suddenly was placed up in the Vault section? Seems to me last summer when the movie opened would have been better timing to advertise it, right? Why now Doug? Any special reason you suddenly had the pages looked at? Were you really spurred by comments here to get the pages looked at?

 

 

And can you speak to someone at CGC about MY books???

[Flaming_Telepath]

In all fairness -- and in order to not obfuscate the matter at hand any further -- Doug did provide evidence corroborating his initial story in the whole Trim JIM affair. The last 100 or so posts in that thread contains said evidence.

 

Unfortunately, the new evidence really didn't seem to exonerate him 100%.

 

Alan, my point was that we were promised one thing and got another. We were promised irrefutable evidence that clearly showed innocence, but what we got was some vague evidence that could be taken any number of ways.

 

However, regarding whether Doug stuck to his story or not, my memory is that he did not, and indeed jumped ships on a number of occasions.

[Flaming_Telepath]

while there is clearly preferential treatment at play in this case, Im not so quick to tar and feather either Doug or CGC as strongly as some. This event while a tad smelly, pales IMO in comparison to the thousands of other issues (books) CGC has let slide into their blue slabs. Remember we are talking about a singular book. The "best" FF1 known so far. Do that many of you really think its page quality makes that much of a difference to its final value? If its a soft 9.6, that another thing, but if you agree that its really a 9.6 (meaning a touch better than the 9.4s) OW pages arent a deal breaker. I am sure the post made here was in jest. As for the timing, sure it looks suspicious. I guess. Doug's owned the book for a long time. So why now? And what was the reason it suddenly was placed up in the Vault section? Seems to me last summer when the movie opened would have been better timing to advertise it, right? Why now Doug? Any special reason you suddenly had the pages looked at? Were you really spurred by comments here to get the pages looked at?

 

 

And can you speak to someone at CGC about MY books???

 

Aman, I agree that there are worse crimes currently being committed, and in isolation, is this such a big deal?

 

Probably not, but given the track record of both involved parties, especially their mutual track record, I think it is an incident of some moment.

 

I also think it's yet another symptom of a system that is rotten to the core, driven by self-interest and navigated with no regard whatsoever for the icebergs that lie ahead.

 

Call it Zero Tolerance and it's a policy I have now adopted.

[THE_BEYONDER]

ZERO TOLERANCE

 

[Captain Tripps]

Brad,

 

Absolutely. The off-white to white bump is cool, but I'd rather see the Yankees win the world series (which will never happen). I'm not incredibly fixated on page quality as I am on structure and no spine wear (my biggest bug a boo which is why the Pac coasts are my favorite books as they have absolutely no spine wear!!). The FF 1 was a no-brainer, though. Although you can only see the edges in the holder, they look sure white to me and everyone else who's seen the book. In addition, as i've stated before, I don't feel the white as compared to off-white really affects its value. Are you going to say that a big investor/buyer would spend $300k for an FF 1 9.6 white, but no if it had "only" off-white pages? I don't think so. I think he wants a high grade FF 1 in 9.6 and would pay what he was comfortable with in order to get it. Now, if it had cream to off-white, which somehow comes with a stigma, that might be a bit different.

 

What is surprising to me is the level of negative posts I've seen in this thread. I can't believe the almost hateful tones in some posters' words. If they are directed toward me for re-submitting a book for a review that is absurd. If they are aimed at CGC for not fully explaining their services that is another thing, but all you have to do is call and ask, like I did, and they will tell you everything you would want to know. Remember, I'm a collector as well as a dealer and I only buy and sell CGC graded books. It's very important for me to know what services they offer, how it is offered, turn-around times, etc. I do a lot of business with CGC but I can't possibly be the only one to actively find these things out. Maybe if I didn't exclusively buy and sell and collect CGC graded books (PGX is not an option for me or my customers and I don't want to sell ungraded books that might be retored or are in lower grade than in my subjective opinion) it would be different.

[Red Hook]

Hi Doug,

 

I think you're getting some of the grief that CGC would get if they had the cajones to come on and answer a few simple questions directly.

 

But that's not how it gets done. Go Mets!

[FFB]

Doug's past is a seperate issue that has nothing to do with this book.

 

I'm not personally aware of any large business on this planet that dosen't give out "perks" to major clients, nor am I aware of any large business that makes all of its "inner workings" completely transparent for all to see. Why should CGC be the exception, and why does it upset everyone so much?

 

 

Because in this case, the rich get richer. I am fine with CGC treating their best clients better. But where that line is drawn is what bothers me.

 

Who gets the perks, and what are those perks?..Since those perks come down to more cash for the submitter. It is not the same as a company giving away tickets to a Football game, or taking a client out to dinner.

 

CGC is based on being unbiased. Preferential treatment of BSD's is anything BUT unbiased.

 

Ze-

 

How do you know the page quality review is limited solely to BSDs? Have you (or has anyone else here) ever asked CGC to review page quality on a book where you knew they got it wrong? If I know Steve Borock at all (and I think I do), if someone called up and politely explained that they had seen the interior pages before slabbing and that CGC had made a mistake on page quality, Steve would say "OK, if you feel strongly about it, send me the book and I'll take a look at it -- no promises, but I'll take a look at it." For a book like Doug's FF#1, it sounds like it was graded when CGC was notoriously harsh on page quality and so a bump shouldn't be surprising. If you look at the OWL card on page quality, the "Off White" designation is really light. (According to the OWL card, the page quality shown on the card was supposed to be the darkest PQ allowed at each level.) I think that CGC was initially so hard on page quality because they were following the OWL card more closely than they do now. What shows up on the OWL card as "Off White" is actually pretty close to what I've seen in books with White pages from CGC over the last couple of years.

 

This is someone else's scan and the colors are off from the OWL card I have at home (off white looks a bit lighter on my card at home), but here's the OWL card. For obvious reasons, it is obsolete and no longer used widely in the hobby:

 

 

Now, on the other hand, if the person called Steve B. and started up the phone call rudely by saying "You sumperson_without_enough_empathyes blew it on the page quality on this book and I demand that you change it right now! blah blah blah" then of course that person is going to get the "Sorry, all grades are final" speech.

 

So who has asked for and been refused a page quality review?

[Rocketeer]

..damn you and your rational logic,...

[Flaming_Telepath]

How do you know the page quality review is limited solely to BSDs? Have you (or has anyone else here) ever asked CGC to review page quality on a book where you knew they got it wrong?

 

Rather like disclosure, why isn't this service mentioned on the CGC web-site? Furthermore, why wait for five years to use it? And furthermore again, why only rush it through after the book had been listed for sale?

[Red Hook]

Scott, if it's a service they offer, then they should simply advertise the fact that it's one that they offer, to everyone. Simple.

 

Heck, they don't even have to answer questions about it in the thread. Just pin an announcement at the top or add it to services offered.

 

It's not listed here.I assume it's not a service they offer to the general public.....

 

[topofthetotem]

This is how I see it!

As CGC has grown to be the only "real" grading company in comics. They have become an "Entity".

I would hazard to guess that CGC has about 95%+ share of the graded comic market.

Now imagine if you will the people in the hobby with the higest profile books (best graded/most expensive/HG runs) the BSD's! Can you imagine if the BSD books started showing up in the "other guy" slabs. CGC has a problem! CGC would only lose about 10-20% of the actual graded comics market but the perception of the BSD's books in "other guy" slabs would cost them more, as they would validate the "other guy" so BSD's get better treatment. Even if CGC swears up and down that everything is fair across the board they would be fools to alienate the people with the higest profile books!

Problem:

Disregard or outright disdane of the little man and his or her concerns/opinions. The small investor or in our case the small time submitter has little to no influence on procedure/policy.BSD get extra special treatment.

Cause:

This type of back door stuff is a typical example of "Corporate America" and in reality corporatations all over the world from Sarasota to Timbuktu. It's easy for the Enity to ignore your questions and your grips because you are one of the unwashed masses, no more that a faceless stat, you represent customer 00012561 and that is all.

Cure:

If collectors want to be taken seriously by the Entity then Dont complain on a chat board speak with your wallet! Do not submit books, Do not buy slabbed books! That is the only way they will listen to the rank and file collector.

[cmon_quit_it-migration]

What is surprising to me is the level of negative posts I've seen in this thread. I can't believe the almost hateful tones in some posters' words. If they are directed toward me for re-submitting a book for a review that is absurd. If they are aimed at CGC for not fully explaining their services that is another thing, but all you have to do is call and ask, like I did, and they will tell you everything you would want to know.

 

I was waiting for The Apologist's Mantra. Lame.

[FFB]

Scott, if it's a service they offer, then they should simply advertise the fact that it's one that they offer, to everyone. Simple.

 

Heck, they don't even have to answer questions about it in the thread. Just pin an announcement at the top or add it to services offered.

 

It's not listed here.I assume it's not a service they offer to the general public.....

 

 

No, I don't buy that. I don't think CGC should have to "advertise" the fact that they make mistakes sometimes. I think a willingness to review a book where the customer feels a mistake was made is enough.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Scott, if it's a service they offer, then they should simply advertise the fact that it's one that they offer, to everyone. Simple.

 

Heck, they don't even have to answer questions about it in the thread. Just pin an announcement at the top or add it to services offered.

 

It's not listed here.I assume it's not a service they offer to the general public.....

 

 

No, I don't buy that. I don't think CGC should have to "advertise" the fact that they make mistakes sometimes. I think a willingness to review a book where the customer feels a mistake was made is enough.

 

Why should their mistakes remain secret? If they don't want to admit to them that's their choice. Just as it's our choice to point them out.

[Red Hook]

 

No, I don't buy that. I don't think CGC should have to "advertise" the fact that they make mistakes sometimes. I think a willingness to review a book where the customer feels a mistake was made is enough.

 

I wasn't thinking of it as a mistake.

 

Anyway, now that more of the general public knows that they offer it....it should develop into another tidy income stream.

[Silver Surfer]

No, I don't buy that. I don't think CGC should have to "advertise" the fact that they make mistakes sometimes. I think a willingness to review a book where the customer feels a mistake was made is enough.

 

I agree with Scott on this one. Keep in mind that it likely was Borock who was the original grader on this book anyways.

[Sal]

Scott, if it's a service they offer, then they should simply advertise the fact that it's one that they offer, to everyone. Simple.

 

Heck, they don't even have to answer questions about it in the thread. Just pin an announcement at the top or add it to services offered.

 

It's not listed here.I assume it's not a service they offer to the general public.....

 

 

No, I don't buy that. I don't think CGC should have to "advertise" the fact that they make mistakes sometimes. I think a willingness to review a book where the customer feels a mistake was made is enough.

 

apparently, one can get a super-cheap "short cappucino" at Starbucks. it isn't on the menu, and is about half the cost of their regular cap... but one has to ask for it.

 

one assumes this is the same process here

[FFB]

How do you know the page quality review is limited solely to BSDs? Have you (or has anyone else here) ever asked CGC to review page quality on a book where you knew they got it wrong?

 

Rather like disclosure, why isn't this service mentioned on the CGC web-site? Furthermore, why wait for five years to use it? And furthermore again, why only rush it through after the book had been listed for sale?

 

What is your point? That Doug thinks the book might sell for more with White pages? OK, I believe you -- and, in fact, I believed that even before I was subjected to your dizzying barrage of rhetorical questions.

 

Why didn't he have it rechecked before/why did he wait five years? I can't speak for Doug, but my guess is that it probably took a few years before CGC loosened up on page quality to the point where Doug started seeing other books with similar page quality coming back at a higher page quality level. It isn't like CGC was harsh on page quality for the first week they were in business and then suddenly loosened up.

 

I don't want to assume too much about Doug, but my guess is that if he had wanted to slip one by everybody on the PQ of this book, or even if he thought that the PQ was a huge deal to begin with, he'd have had the review done before he listed it for sale or posted a big scan of the book with the "Off-White" label.

 

Another reason why I'm guessing he waited this long is because the book wasn't being offered for sale and a PQ bump was an uncertainty and therefore a low priority. But you'd have to ask Doug that.