awe4one Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) For anyone who seems to think they have a right to know the techniques, then on your list of things to do please add goomg down to Coca Cola's HQ and asking them for the secret formula. They will politely decline. You can tell them that you can figure it out from a chemical analysis so they might as well tell you. You can tell them that Pepsi and RC must have pretty much figured it out, since their products taste kind of like Coke. Guess what: they still won't tell you! Would anyone dispute that's their right? So what's the difference here? First...you're right, he doesn't have to disclose the process...but it's good business if he did. I doubt many restorers in other fields wouldn't disclose their processes... But with that said...the Coke analogy doesn't work. He is working on a thing of value to the customer. What he does and doesn't do as well as what he uses to accomplish his work is important to the customer because the item being worked on has a value attached. It's not his to work on in secret (if not owned by him). The customer has every right to know the processes being used because a screw-up, or ignorance on the process due to secrecy, could decrease the value of the item or be a procedure the customer doesn't want done... Jim Edited June 12, 2006 by awe4one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 I don't know why everyone's making a big deal out of Matt not disclosing his techniques. If he views them as secret, then he views them as secret. That is his privilege and he's entitled to it. He's been quite polite in saying no to persistent requests, more polite than I would've been. He can keep his trade scerets I have said as much many times. I just wanted to know of the different types of pressing processes available which ones did he employ on any paticular book in his educational pressing experiment thread. If a book has a corner crease, does he press the whole book?..If he doesnt uses heat..is mositure involved? When a book has spine roll does he normally take it apart to work on it ..etc Stuff like that. He can take his secret pressing process to his grave if that is his want, I happen to disagree with him,he is protecting his livliehood I suppose. But inquiring what types of pressing might be used on various types of flaws is not akin to asking coke for it's secret recipe. I never took it to such preposterous lengths, why did you? Ze- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvelcollector Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 For anyone who seems to think they have a right to know the techniques, then on your list of things to do please add goomg down to Coca Cola's HQ and asking them for the secret formula. It isn't a question of whether he or anybody has the right to not disclose any information. Of course he has the right . The above was speculation as to the reason somebody might want to keep something a secret. And, on the flip side, doesn't the owner of a book have the right to know what - precisely - is being done on his property, not just the intended (un-guarenteed) end results? It would be hard to imagine car mechanics getting away with working on a car behind a black curtain and refusing to expain exactly what they are doing and getting away with it.... As I said, I think par tof the explanation is to keep the masses from knowing how simple some of this is...it's a practice in all fields. The high priests mystify things to, well, keep themselves the high priests.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 And, on the flip side, doesn't the owner of a book have the right to know what - precisely - is being done on his property, not just the intended (un-guarenteed) end results? To be fair, I dont actualy know, but if a person were to pay Matt for his service, I imagine they would be told what was done to the book. I did not, nor did the people in the other pressing thread pay for his service. Perhaps I will just pay him.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marvelcollector Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 (edited) And, on the flip side, doesn't the owner of a book have the right to know what - precisely - is being done on his property, not just the intended (un-guarenteed) end results? To be fair, I dont actualy know, but if a person were to pay Matt for his service, I imagine they would be told what was done to the book. I did not, nor did the people in the other pressing thread pay for his service. Perhaps I will just pay him.. I would imagine Matt's position on something being a trade secret would remain consistent irregardless of the asker being a paying client or not.... Edited June 12, 2006 by marvelcollector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquirecomics Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 For anyone who seems to think they have a right to know the techniques, then on your list of things to do please add goomg down to Coca Cola's HQ and asking them for the secret formula. Would this be some sort of cult dance one performs when going to Coke's HQ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aman619 Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 hey Ze - - while you are at it, take a few books with assorted creases and place them under some heavy stacks of books... an dleave them there for a year. And research the whole Church Effect thing. Its a slow go of course, but no time like the present to start! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted June 12, 2006 Author Share Posted June 12, 2006 I already did last year They are still under the books. I also put a few books in a homemade "press" to see it that accelerated the process. All with before and soon to be after photos. I dont imagine I will see defects removed. Just flatter books. This thread is kinda part two of my thread from earlier last year. Back then pressing was new to most of us outside a certain circle of people. What's funny is how far we have come regarding pressing since then, yet we still dont really know much about the act of pressing itself outside of a certain circle of people.. Ze- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FFB Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 I have a sneaky suspicion that part of the reason for the secrecy is that some (not all) of the techniques used are so simple they are achievable by nearly anyone. This would, of course, have a detrimnental effect on a presser's business. This makes more sense than the "trade secrets" argument... Jim How can that make more sense than the trade secrets argument? That IS the trade secrets argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadroch Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 How do people become experts in the restoration field? I can't speak for Matt but the two restorers I know,and POV Row did it the old fashioned way. They apprenticed with experts in the field.AFTER they were shown the techniques,and were given hands-on training,then they proceeded to practice what they were taught. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divad Posted June 12, 2006 Share Posted June 12, 2006 What? No spray starch! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nostalgic Attic Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Interesting Thread I would imagine the experiment would have a different affect on the cover if the page quality was a lesser cream color and more brittle, although there are ways of increasing the moisture content of the paper prior to applying heat. I'm not one who is willing to accept Matt Nelson's blanket stement that pressing doesn't damage the books without any evidence of research on his part. There is a slight inherent conflict of interest in him making that kind of statement. So I'm looking forward to this thread possibly shedding some light on that issue. In reading about paper preservation and restoration, it is aparent that the deterioration of the cellulose fibers in paper is due to the acids present in the sizing, which in turn, causes the paper to lose its ability to retain moisture, thus causing it to become brittle, and fall apart. (I'm sure someone will correct me if i'm wrong.) As heat and pressure can play a part in dehumidifying and deforming the fibers of the paper, it would be interesting if differences in the fibers of the paper could be detected from before and after shots from a microscope....just a thought, as I don't know what kind of microscope would be required. Also interesting would be a ph test before and after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comicdey Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I appreciate what you're doing Ze. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ze-man Posted June 13, 2006 Author Share Posted June 13, 2006 How do people become experts in the restoration field? I can't speak for Matt but the two restorers I know,and POV Row did it the old fashioned way. They apprenticed with experts in the field.AFTER they were shown the techniques,and were given hands-on training,then they proceeded to practice what they were taught. Wow, thank you Dr. Stoopid for that obvious to everyone breakdown. Next could you please tell us where babies come from? Is there any one reason in paticular why you are being a total ignorant buttmunch about what I am doing here? You seem to have taken a liking to trolling me with negative comments. Having fun? How is that going for you? Is it fun being bitter all the time? Besides, who ever said I wanted to become an expert in the restoration fiield? I am only concerned about 1 area PRESSING, and even said as much. Restoration is a art form as much as it is a science. Pressing is more about applied skill. I suppose it is all a form of mad scientist alchemy Sure people who are willing to show the techniques that they employ to others, helps those who want to learn and become proficient much more quickly. But dont for a second think that everybody goes about the same thing, the same way. And last time I checked, how the f did you become such an expert at knowing what MY backgound was /is?..or who I am working/speaking with? I was not aware I published that yet. And fyi you already mentioned what I consider to be one of my "mentors" See this for what it is if you can Shad, My only goal is to try and learn what I can and pass that along to the boards It's gonna take time I dont have alot of. I am not opening up shop. You dont like or condone that,well big whupty freakin doo. dont let the door hit you..k? Ze- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hook Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquirecomics Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Let there be calm here!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comicdey Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Let there be calm here!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Hook Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Let there be calm here!!!! And this coming from Mr. Eye-of-the-Hurricane himself! (Juuuuuust kidding.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burntboy Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 I think this is a terrific idea and I applaud someone for taking the time and effort to examine the various ways to go about pressing comics. Ditto........ Knowledge is Power....................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
esquirecomics Posted June 13, 2006 Share Posted June 13, 2006 Let there be calm here!!!! And this coming from Mr. Eye-of-the-Hurricane himself! (Juuuuuust kidding.) I know. I thought people would enjoy the irony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...