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Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

Started by esquirecomics,

719 posts in this topic

Foolkiller

Foolkiller

Posted
Posted

I understand that the reason you feel disclosure is easier for the dealer to disclose is because he/she is in the best position to know.

 

For me, the only reason to disclose information as a seller is when it is going to materially affect the value of the product. Now -- I understand that this can be dicey because if the product is being represented to be something that it is not... well... that should also mandate disclosure as well, regardless of value. But from my view, pressing does alter the book sufficiently to require such disclosure.

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awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted
I understand that the reason you feel disclosure is easier for the dealer to disclose is because he/she is in the best position to know.

 

For me, the only reason to disclose information as a seller is when it is going to materially affect the value of the product. Now -- I understand that this can be dicey because if the product is being represented to be something that it is not... well... that should also mandate disclosure as well, regardless of value. But from my view, pressing does alter the book sufficiently to require such disclosure.

 

That's sounds on the surface a hypocritical statement...so is the product being misrepresented? And how in god's name is this a good thing? For any buyer?

 

Jim

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
I understand that the reason you feel disclosure is easier for the dealer to disclose is because he/she is in the best position to know.

 

For me, the only reason to disclose information as a seller is when it is going to materially affect the value of the product. Now -- I understand that this can be dicey because if the product is being represented to be something that it is not... well... that should also mandate disclosure as well, regardless of value. But from my view, pressing does alter the book sufficiently to require such disclosure.

 

I think you mean does NOT. poke2.gif

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
Well, until it starts affecting value -- they are not doing anything wrong, to me, by saying nothing voluntarily on the issue of pressing. You cannot say that for the other forms of restoration.

 

Why are you quantifying the issue by value? They are hiding a condition that will impact the buyer. That's the issue here. They are purposely not relating an issue that some buyers may care about. Those that don't care won't be bothered with the revelation.

 

Is pressing restoration? Let's assume for a moment it is. But let's say OS categorizes pressing as a non harmful, non additive form of pressing, but because it is a very minor alteration, calls it restoration/conservation and says it will not effect the value of a book. Now do dealers have a duty to disclose? Nope.

 

Again with the value...they are selling a product. A product that has a condition collectors may very well care about. They have a duty to disclose that condition. It's no different as with other forms of resto or even if a MVS has been cut out. They need to disclose the info as it impacts what the collector is buying...

 

Why are we not saying that the buyer has the burden here? If not all parties agree, why is it not the buyer's responsibility?

 

Because the seller KNOWS it's pressed. They are selling the product. It's not the buyer's responsibility to "figure it out".

 

Is even the seller in the best position to ALWAYS know when a book has been pressed. Let's say the original seller sold the book and pressed it first. It passes through 5 hands before someone realizes it's been pressed -- who is liable -- will it be possible to even trace back to the original seller -- especially when the question of whether it is really disclosable is up for debate? There's no uniformity or common market agreement here.

 

Irrelevent...if the seller doesn't know, then he doesn't know. That's not what we're discussing here.

 

You have a right to make an informed choice -- by simply asking the dealer the question. The dealer has an obligation to answer you honestly. But it is the buyer's burden.

 

Bull...the seller is the one putting the product out there. No one asked him/her to. He/she is the one benefiting the most in this transaction. It's their comic and it's the same with all other resto, disclose what you know. Why people are trying to defend this nondisclosure practice with semantics is really curious. We demand full disclosure on comics we buy in regards to resto...pressing is a resto process until the loophold experts saw an out. Now they are trying to exploit that hole by "redefining" resto. Nothing has changed other than the attempt to change collectors minds. Regardless, the onus is still there for pressing to be disclosed despite the howls of those trying to work the system...

 

Jim

 

893applaud-thumb.gif Well said thumbsup2.gif

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
I understand that the reason you feel disclosure is easier for the dealer to disclose is because he/she is in the best position to know.

 

For me, the only reason to disclose information as a seller is when it is going to materially affect the value of the product. Now -- I understand that this can be dicey because if the product is being represented to be something that it is not... well... that should also mandate disclosure as well, regardless of value. But from my view, pressing does alter the book sufficiently to require such disclosure.

 

With the way it is now, we'll never really get to know how pressing will or will not affect the value because most dealers do not disclose whether it's been done or not.

 

You sound sure that it won't affect the value. Matt Nelson sounds sure he thinks it will. I know it would affect the price I'd be willing to pay, but for others like you it would not. It's really a [embarrassing lack of self control] shoot, but I would expect it to affect the price somewhat as a whole. It may only affect it slightly like a white page book over a OW page book might.

 

Look at it this way...If a seller was selling raw micro-trimmed books (which the average collector could not distinguish) without disclosure, would it affect the value paid for those books? NO, because they wouldn't know about it, just like undisclosed pressed books. Now should the burden in that instance also be with the buyer to ask if the book has been micro-trimmed? It seems silly to put this type of burden on the buyer and not on the person who's done or had the work performed on the book.

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

You are so hung up on this aren't you poke2.gif

 

Fine, if it makes you feel better, then they should disclose that as well yeahok.gif

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awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

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awe4one

awe4one

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

 

 

Yes..but your question is so absurd to be really taken seriously...are you really trying to compare the two? It makes you look rather foolish if that's the best you got...

 

Jim

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

 

 

Yes..but your question is so absurd to be really taken seriously...are you really trying to compare the two? It makes you look rather foolish if that's the best you got...

 

Jim

 

Interesting. I find your daily dose of sanctimony to be absurd, so I guess it's all "eye of the beholder." As for "looking foolish," I think you look foolish doing this fumbling-around routine while you try to think of a reason why one form of restoration "must" be disclosed, yet another does not. If you're removing defects, or "trying to return the item to an original or assumed state," it's "restoration" whether you use a tacking iron, dry mount press, weighted glass, or your finger, right? (Or is it your opinion that the IIC's and AIC's and Overstreet's and everyone else's definition of "restoration" does or doesn't apply depending on what tool the restorer uses?) And if it's "restoration," then the Law of Big Jim automatically requires that it be disclosed, right?

 

Now, are you planning on answering the question, or should I just let you get back to your regularly scheduled sermonizing?

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Silver Surfer

Silver Surfer

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

 

 

Yes..but your question is so absurd to be really taken seriously...are you really trying to compare the two? It makes you look rather foolish if that's the best you got...

 

Jim

 

Have to agree with Jim on this one. Bending a corner back with your finger is like saying a book was read in the bathroom, big deal.

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

 

 

Yes..but your question is so absurd to be really taken seriously...are you really trying to compare the two? It makes you look rather foolish if that's the best you got...

 

Jim

 

Have to agree with Jim on this one. Bending a corner back with your finger is like saying a book was read in the bathroom, big deal.

 

I agree with you too. "Big deal." But that's also how I feel about all forms of pressing. The question is, if they both meet the definition of "restoration," why does one supposedly need to be disclosed and the other not?

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
If the end result is the same, the only difference is the tool.

 

 

I'd really like to see a comparative study done between finger pressing and the type that Classic Inc does. How many people on here truly believe the two groups would have the same results? screwy.gif

 

If people could press out all the same defects with just their fingers, people like Matt wouldn't have a very successful business now would they?

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FFB

FFB

Posted
Posted
If the end result is the same, the only difference is the tool.

 

 

I'd really like to see a comparative study done between finger pressing and the type that Classic Inc does. How many people on here truly believe the two groups would have the same results? screwy.gif

 

If people could press out all the same defects with just their fingers, people like Matt wouldn't have a very successful business now would they?

 

Finger pressing doesn't remove all the same defects that dry mount pressing does, but dry mount pressing doesn't remove some defects you can remove with a finger. If you put a book with a bent edge or bent corner into a dry mount press, it will not remove the defect.

 

Again, why does one kind of "pressing" have to be disclosed, but another kind not?

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
The seller is on the point to disclose. Though value has some relevence, it doesn't when we're taking about disclosure. The practices performed on a comic needs to be disclosed whether it's $1.50 or $1,500. Though greed or value is a factor in "why" dealers press, it's not a standard for not disclosing...

 

Jim

 

If a dealer bends back a corner with his fingers, does he need to disclose that too? Because this is also a form of pressing.

 

Again...semantics...

 

You know what we're talking about here but continuely bring up straw-men to try to discredit the discussion. You need to bring something stronger to make your point...

 

Jim

 

Don't duck the question, Jim. Pressing is restoration. Restoration professionals do, at times, apply pressure with their fingers while conducting restorative procedures. You can permanently remove real defects using this technique. So the question is, is there a duty to disclose pressing-with-fingers?

 

 

Yes..but your question is so absurd to be really taken seriously...are you really trying to compare the two? It makes you look rather foolish if that's the best you got...

 

Jim

 

Have to agree with Jim on this one. Bending a corner back with your finger is like saying a book was read in the bathroom, big deal.

 

I agree with you too. "Big deal." But that's also how I feel about all forms of pressing. The question is, if they both meet the definition of "restoration," why does one supposedly need to be disclosed and the other not?

 

How is bending a corner back pressing? Are you implying that the person who bent it back did so in such a way that the bend has disapeared? Have they just bent it back or applied pressure? Was it bent in such a way to create a color breaking crease? Has the grade been increased do to this? It's hard to assess your view without a few more details.

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jimm94

jimm94

Posted
Posted

If you're talking about bending back a corner or something very minor, the result would absolutely be the same as using a tacking iron, weighted glass, or any other method. If it corrects the defect, has the same lasting effect (i.e. doesn't revert to a bent state five minutes later, and equally shows no evidence of manipulation, there is no difference.

 

Clearly, pressing something or correcting something with one's finger would only be useful for correcting a limited range of flaws. No one is saying you could can do all types of pressing "digitally".

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Scheradon

Scheradon

Posted
Posted
If the end result is the same, the only difference is the tool.

 

 

I'd really like to see a comparative study done between finger pressing and the type that Classic Inc does. How many people on here truly believe the two groups would have the same results? screwy.gif

 

If people could press out all the same defects with just their fingers, people like Matt wouldn't have a very successful business now would they?

 

Finger pressing doesn't remove all the same defects that dry mount pressing does, but dry mount pressing doesn't remove some defects you can remove with a finger. If you put a book with a bent edge or bent corner into a dry mount press, it will not remove the defect.

 

Again, why does one kind of "pressing" have to be disclosed, but another kind not?

 

I don't mind if finger pressing is disclosed. confused-smiley-013.gif

 

I'd still like to see some examples of the art of finger pressing to sway my opinion to believe it actually performs any significant restorative qualities to a book.

 

I think the difference between the two is night and day, but if you think you can not only get dealers to disclose all the other forms or pressing in addition to finger pressing, then go for it. I'm willing to compromise with just the more invasive forms of pressing myself.

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