Legitimate Non-Threatening Questions Posed To Matt Nelson

[Aman619]

I got pretty busy this afternoon..

 

did I miss anything??

 

[ShoNuff-migration]

[Thegoldenage]

I'm nobody's 'foot soldier', knob-head. I don't remember insulting you (until now), so you can keep your sh!te to yourself.

 

And if it bores you, don't click on the friggin' thread.

 

Sheesh, I ignore this thread for a few days and bang, look what happens. I miss out on a good insult. Maybe if you'd knock off the arse-kissing you won't get called out on it.

[Thegoldenage]

I got pretty busy this afternoon..

 

did I miss anything??

 

You missed some brand new, earth-shattering, hobby-rocking news on pressing.

Not.

[tth2]

Anyone else wonder if Mark would be so up in arms over the whole pressing thing if he hadn't jumped headlong into paying big prices for high-grade slabs on Heritage, only to discover after the fact that what he thought was "best existing copy" actually had competition based on press/resubs? I remember some thread a while back where he was upset because his Mad #1 9.8 (not a scarce book even in high grade, with a dozen books at 9.0 or better plus who knows how many that haven't been slabbed), bought on Heritage (for what, $32K?) turned out not to be as scarce as he thought. Shortly thereafter he went on his anti-pressing crusade.

 

I may have the facts wrong on the book/price/venue, but I think my point is the same and reflects what october hinted at earlier: This is something Mark cares passionately about because it affects the value of his collection, which I believe he began amassing a couple of years ago by throwing money around without really understanding the dynamics of the market. I think a number of us have been aware of pro pressing for a while, which has always had an impact on the increasing supply of high-grade books. However, it's not an issue that a huge percentage of collectors care about, other than spectator value, and given Mark's vested interest I find it hard to separate his sense of Justice For All from his sense of being wronged.

I'm really not sure I understand the point of this post. That anyone who is not absolutely impartial is not qualified to fight over an issue? So Mark (or anyone who is pro-disclosure) has a dog in this fight. So what?

 

Are you saying you'd respect Mark more if he had bought a bunch of raw books on the cheap and then pressed them up and sold them at a huge profit, and then sought to suppress everyone who protested against this practice?

 

given how powerful the lure of money is to people, I don't think making a whole lot of noise about it will stop deceitful people from trying to make more money.

Well, wouldn't making NO noise be an absolute guaranteed way to make sure that nothing will stop deceitful people? Because some people here are tired of hearing so much noise, we should adopt a policy of appeasement?

[THE_BEYONDER]

you are right... but cmon. just because only 1 in 30 collectors are worried about the issue shouldnt mean they have to be silent, or not take steps to prevent it, right? What it really means IMO (or should mean perhaps), is that maybe those 29 out of 30 NOT afffected ought to just stay out of the discussion since it does not affect them in the least. Everyone's opinion is valid of course so Im not saying to anyone "mind your own business." But why NOT just keep the discussion between those it DOES affect? Why should all manner of disinterested (except at a voyeurs level) opinions be involved in what (BY THEIR OWN ADMISSION) does not matter to them or what they collect.

 

If pressing doesnt bother someone, or just isnt on their radar or a worry for their collection, then dont all their comments beyond stating "I dont mind pressing. So be it." boil down to, basically, (as has crept thru many comments), a sort of reverse snobby "have-not's envy"? I dont mean to provoke a class war... so I hope you know what I mean by that. If its affects so few, then let just those affected hash it out amongst themselves....

 

No. If you are trying to establish industry standards, you need some kind of an industry consensus. If the issue is whether there's an affirmative duty to disclose something on an industry-wide basis, the fact that 99.99% of the people in the hobby don't care about it should carry some weight in the discussion of what the industry standard should be. If you only polled those who care about pressing, you'd have an extremely skewed sample that would be misleading and statistically worthless. It would be like basing the US presidential election results on only those votes cast in the smallest town in Rhode Island.

 

 

No. CGC is the means of production for an industry of its own. It's a seperate entity that is in desperate need of a set of standards.

 

 

(I look forward to your response in about an hour when I finally catch up with this thread )

[Mushroom]

Moreover, if you read Mark Wilson’s Scoop article, you’d know that he cut a book in two, pressed one-half, and sent both halves to a laboratory for testing. After aging both halves to 25 years, there were no apparent differences. If you want to ignore all serious evidence on the subject, that’s your prerogative.

 

It is comments like this that really do have me concerned. Are you serious that you believe this to be incontrevertable proof? First off, what was Wilson's objective and agenda? Does he hope to benefit from these findings? If so. then how much pressing was done? Did he just sit on it or did he do full spine roll removal? Did he do dry or wet pressing? How was the paper aged to simulate 25 years aging? Was it in an humid envionment, tropical, sub tropical, dry etc etc etc?

 

Give me a break, nothing Wilson did was serious evidence. It wasn't even a controlled experiment. If this is all it takes to convince you then maybe you should go to Japan where the government still promotes the benefits of smoking for stress relief.

[Shield]

Mushroom, I had a dream about outposting you. I have awaken, and I apologize.

 

How've you been? Good to see you back here...(extends olive branch )

[tth2]

If anyone is right, it’s because the facts support their statements. In this case, the so-called experts – CGC and Susan Cicconi have both said that intact pressing (or spine roll removal), when properly performed, is impossible to detect.

Peter, I have to say I just really don't understand where you're coming from on this. If scientists came up with a steroid or other performance enhancing drug that was absolutely impossible to detect, are you saying that organized sports should just throw up its hands and say they're not going to bother to outlaw that drug anymore?

 

Moreover, if you read Mark Wilson’s Scoop article, you’d know that he cut a book in two, pressed one-half, and sent both halves to a laboratory for testing. After aging both halves to 25 years, there were no apparent differences. If you want to ignore all serious evidence on the subject, that’s your prerogative.

Again, using my steroids analogy, if scientists created a completely undetectable steroid that had absolutely no harmful side effects on the user, are you saying that organized sports should not bother to outlaw it? Is the harm that steroids do to the user the reason we ban them from sports, or is it the fact that we value the performance of "real" people and don't want to see "real" athletic accomplishments devalued?

 

But my point was that, I believe you to be a good lawyer that considers facts, reality, and logic in forming logical and reasonable opinions. Therefore, I expected you to hone in on the problem and either come to the conclusion supported by all serious evidence, or, if unsatisfied with this, propose discussing possible solutions.

Peter, you as a lawyer should know better than anyone else that you can put the same evidence in front of two people and they'll come away with completely different opinions. How could it be even less so with a much less clear cut issue such as pressing?

 

I do fail to understand how people could oppose a policy of disclosure, though. How does it hurt anyone except the perpetuators to have a policy of disclosure? For the people that don't care, they're not harmed in the least. For the people that do care, they're getting what they asked for. And collecting in general benefits from a less fraudulent environment. If this were 1933, would you have been one of the people lobbying against the disclosure requirements of the Securities Act?

 

The point of NOD is for participants to be ethical in their dealings and offer affirmative disclosure. Disclosure is simply a manifestation of ethical dealing. Disclosure (and ethics) should never be contingent on, or compromised by, anything else – regardless of disclosure’s affect on “anything else.” Maybe I’m wrong, but I get the sense that you don’t understand what the point of NOD is, as you seem to question people’s NOD involvement simply because they don’t see things as you do.

 

Example: why would my participation in NOD be at all in question simply because I happen to live in reality? The fact that there is no solution to detecting pressing has nothing to do with ethical dealing, nor does it have anything to do with affirmative disclosure. Many people have always operated ethically and have been only too happy to disclose what we know. NOD changes nothing. It simply organizes some people of like mind.

Then why isn't it called the Network of Ethical Dealing, rather than the Network of Disclosure? What you're talking about seems to be awfully abstract and ephemeral.

 

It is too difficult to govern the ethical component only. What people think, they are going to think. It is much easier, and more practical, to govern actual conduct. If you want to combat racism by trying to convince people to be less racist, then good luck to you in your quixotic quest. I would rather pass laws that prevent someone from denying others the right to vote based on the color of their skin. It might not stop people from being racist, but it will help to stop them from manifesting racist behavior.

[tth2]

To whatever degree it influences his passion, his subsequent actions serve to protect EVERYONE's collection against those willing to bend the rules with backdoor grade-bumping techniques w/o disclosing it was done.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

This attitude drives me crazy. Rich people, slab collectors and minorities have rights too! Did you skip Con Law the day they covered Korematsu v. US?

 

How exactly does a pro-disclosure policy/requirement hurt the collectors who don't care? It doesn't. It might not help them, but it certainly doesn't hurt them. So why would they try to oppose those spoiled rich minority slab collectors? What benefit do they get out of that?

[tth2]

C'mon, Scott...are you now saying that the best-known, most respected restorer in the business isn't all she's cracked up to be?

 

And you know this because of Chinese whispers?

I never said nuthin'!

[tth2]

And here's a reference to Susan's Sotheby's misses by Tim Hui. Link.

Or maybe I did!

[codfish]

My orginal point and post, which of course got diluted, was that pressing only has an effect on a small segment of the collecting community. Most people don't collect high grade, slabs, or big dollar books. That's it. Why people felt the need to disagree with that simple (and obvious) statement is beyond me.

 

And how the heck would you know this as fact when the majority is not disclosed and never will be?

 

As for painting with broad strokes .... well I apologized for that but I don't know why I did now since you and others on the "other side" feel the need to paint my side with broad strokes. I have made it clear that I do believe that pressing is a problem and is commonly used for increasing profit.

 

As for how much profit ... well if it as rampant as some suspect obviously the "$30" profit you say is worth it. But keep in mind that many of the pressed books out there are NOT such paultry earners. Besides when submitting many books for pressing there could be a bulk discount or never discount the possiblility that friends of the presser could be getting discounts. Clearly if their was no profit in pressing it would NOT be done and we would not be discussing it here.

 

I should pass on this information, again, since many people like to paint in broad strokes, I am not opposed to pressing. I do believe all work done to a book, detectable or not, should be disclosed. I am extremely disappointed that so many people would get needless restoration and conservation done and that some restorers would support such needless work. I just don't see the problem with disclosure since, with respect to pressing, those that don't care will still buy the book and still pay a premium while those that don't want a pressed book will not buy it. The dealer still gets their money and a customer gets their book while the other potential customer keeps looking. The dealer also would avoid the bad publicity that that one customer could have given if they had discovered their purchase was worked on.

 

I don't know I must be nuts but how is that a bad thing?

[october]

I don't know who you are, or why you replied to my post, but nothing I said was directed at you.

[october]

To whatever degree it influences his passion, his subsequent actions serve to protect EVERYONE's collection against those willing to bend the rules with backdoor grade-bumping techniques w/o disclosing it was done.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

This attitude drives me crazy. Rich people, slab collectors and minorities have rights too! Did you skip Con Law the day they covered Korematsu v. US?

 

How exactly does a pro-disclosure policy/requirement hurt the collectors who don't care? It doesn't. It might not help them, but it certainly doesn't hurt them. So why would they try to oppose those spoiled rich minority slab collectors? What benefit do they get out of that?

 

Where did I say ANYTHING about pro-disclosure hurting ANYONE? Where the hell did you get that? I didn't even mention the disclosure debate.

 

If you are going to take issue with my post, that's cool, but at address something I actually said! I guess you missed the day they covered basic debating in law school.

[tth2]

Where did I say ANYTHING about pro-disclosure hurting ANYONE? Where the hell did you get that? I didn't even mention the disclosure debate.

 

If you are going to take issue with my post, that's cool, but at address something I actually said! I guess you missed the day they covered basic debating in law school.

I was reading between the lines. Your post certainly wasn't supportive of disclosure, as it seemed to be taking a shot at that part of the community that would most benefit from disclosure.

[october]

Where did I say ANYTHING about pro-disclosure hurting ANYONE? Where the hell did you get that? I didn't even mention the disclosure debate.

 

If you are going to take issue with my post, that's cool, but at address something I actually said! I guess you missed the day they covered basic debating in law school.

I was reading between the lines. Your post certainly wasn't supportive of disclosure, as it seemed to be taking a shot at that part of the community that would most benefit from disclosure.

 

I honestly wasn't trying to imply anything about disclosure. If I had something to say I would have come right out and said it. I was JUST taking issue with those who lump the entire hobby into this debate. It simply isn't an issue that has an effect on most collectors one way or the other.

[THE_BEYONDER]

Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

 

Do you think mid-grade CGC's aren't being reincarnated a grade or so higher in the press-for-profit game? And do you consider Ebay shoppers "only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community."?

 

Just asking. A hundred dollar CGC mid-grade book that's bumped a couple of grade notches and sells for $200 is, well, 100% profit, right? A double your money quick flip. Do you think crack-n-flip gamers scoff at those in favor of only going after the big-bang 9.8 lotto hits?

 

EXACTLY!

 

The Ebay market is worldwide, and full of wanna be collectors with money to throw about. A virtual treasure trove of unknowing Ebayers ready to pay top dollar for slabbed, or RAW books.

 

Since it is fairly easy and cheap to press a comic. Find a comic with "good pressing potential candiate features" and turn it from a CGC 6.5 Hulk #1 into a CGC 8.0 Hulk #1 lickity split. It seems obvious to me the potential for money making is built into Midgrades as well as HG's. Granted HG books command the best premium for NDP but that does not mean there isn't a vast amount of books that would also benefit from the same type of pressing.

 

Especially since CGC kills a book for the type of indent flaws that pressing can easily remove. And what is ever funnier is someone might unknowingly buy a pressed slabbed 8.0 comic , thinking it will make a good pressing candidate since it is only an 8.0..what a vicious circle.

 

So I say..YES.. the board is a bit top heavy in our concern over pressing. But the opposite can be said for the casual collector, or Ebayer. So it does need to be talked about in the hopes of moving it foward, however slow that progress might be.

 

 

 

Ze-

 

 

 

 

(still trying to catch up)

[Scheradon]

To whatever degree it influences his passion, his subsequent actions serve to protect EVERYONE's collection against those willing to bend the rules with backdoor grade-bumping techniques w/o disclosing it was done.

 

Again I see this myopic view rear its ugly head. MOST collectors don't care about having uber high grade books and MOST collectors don't own slabs. Therefore MOST collectors don't need protection against pressing. Just because a lot of people on this board are grade crazy doesn't mean their habits are reflexive of the hobby in general. I don't need anyone's "protection" because I am not going to pay 37x guide for a what CGC calls a "9.8". I think people on this board grossly overestimate the importance of this debate and when I read comments like the one above I just shake my head. Only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community need be concerned about this practice.

This really surprises me, so I have to ask...

Do you think mid-grade CGC's aren't being reincarnated a grade or so higher in the press-for-profit game? And do you consider Ebay shoppers "only a tiny, tiny fraction of the collecting community."?

 

Just asking. A hundred dollar CGC mid-grade book that's bumped a couple of grade notches and sells for $200 is, well, 100% profit, right? A double your money quick flip. Do you think crack-n-flip gamers scoff at those in favor of only going after the big-bang 9.8 lotto hits?

 

Well, your example is pretty faulty and I think it illustrates perfectly why I don't think mid-grade books are being manipulated on any kind of scale for a non high grade buyer to worry about.

 

You have $100 book. You pay $30-40 for the press and shipping. Then you have to get it re-slabbed. What would that run? Another $30? You may have turned a $100 book into a $200 book, but you used $60-70 to do it, not to mention the hassle and time invested. For what? A $30 profit? That scenario just doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Wow, I go to sleep and wake up to find 125 posts have been made here

 

Andy, take a look at Tim's upgrade database and you will see that 9.8 is not the grade of comics you really need to worry about. Many of the upgrades are comming in from a much lower grade range.

 

I've been enjoying your collection thread and have to say, you have some very nice books. I wouldn't call those mid-grade books, so I think you do like to obtain books in a fairly HG (even if you choose non-slabbed). You may not have noticed, but Matt has recently made exclusive pressing very affordable (as little as $15 a book I believe). I'd also like to ask Matt, if he ever gave price breaks for quantity or select customers in the past to make this more affordable as well. Keep in mind too that not all books that get pressed have previously been slabbed, so the re-slabbing cost you've referred to many times would not be incurred.

 

I'm not really following your logic on this topic though.

 

Is your interest (or non-interest) because:

 

A) You feel that what you collect has no chance of being affected by pressing?

 

B) You don't care if you are buying pressed books

 

C) Because since you don't spend big bucks on slabs, and you feel that those who do don't deserve upfront honesty and protection in their purchases?

 

D) All of the above

 

I just don't see why you have a problem with those of us who do care about pressing and do like to obtain nice HG books for our collections. It's fine for you to say that those who don't buy HGs, slabs, or spend a lot of money on comics are not concerned for pressing, but what's that really got to do with anything going on here? You could say that people who don't buy any comics at all could care less about pressing (and that group makes up an even higher percentage of people).

 

Here's some food for thought:

 

A person steals $5 from you. Not a huge deal and probably not worth persuing legally. You still won't appreciate it on principal though.

 

A person steals $500 from you. Now it's a felony and a big deal and worthy of legal recourse.

 

That's somewhat the difference here I think. You would represent the guy that got $5 ripped off you and don't really care that much. The bigger the rip off, the bigger the concern. I belive this has sort of been a point Mark has made in the past in reference to high dollar books (In terms he wouldn't care if it was just a $50 book).

 

Myself personally, I'm more about the principal of it. I like HGs but am not one who spends $1,000s on any one book. Even when I buy a $100 book, I'd like to know if it was pressed or had any other work performed on it. I don't see why that's so unreasonable to expect. Is it really that hard for a seller to just state what work if any they had or know for a fact had been done to the book?

[Scheradon]

Anyone else wonder if Mark would be so up in arms over the whole pressing thing if he hadn't jumped headlong into paying big prices for high-grade slabs on Heritage, only to discover after the fact that what he thought was "best existing copy" actually had competition based on press/resubs? I remember some thread a while back where he was upset because his Mad #1 9.8 (not a scarce book even in high grade, with a dozen books at 9.0 or better plus who knows how many that haven't been slabbed), bought on Heritage (for what, $32K?) turned out not to be as scarce as he thought. Shortly thereafter he went on his anti-pressing crusade.

 

I may have the facts wrong on the book/price/venue, but I think my point is the same and reflects what october hinted at earlier: This is something Mark cares passionately about because it affects the value of his collection, which I believe he began amassing a couple of years ago by throwing money around without really understanding the dynamics of the market. I think a number of us have been aware of pro pressing for a while, which has always had an impact on the increasing supply of high-grade books. However, it's not an issue that a huge percentage of collectors care about, other than spectator value, and given Mark's vested interest I find it hard to separate his sense of Justice For All from his sense of being wronged.

I'm really not sure I understand the point of this post. That anyone who is not absolutely impartial is not qualified to fight over an issue? So Mark (or anyone who is pro-disclosure) has a dog in this fight. So what?

 

Are you saying you'd respect Mark more if he had bought a bunch of raw books on the cheap and then pressed them up and sold them at a huge profit, and then sought to suppress everyone who protested against this practice?

 

given how powerful the lure of money is to people, I don't think making a whole lot of noise about it will stop deceitful people from trying to make more money.

Well, wouldn't making NO noise be an absolute guaranteed way to make sure that nothing will stop deceitful people? Because some people here are tired of hearing so much noise, we should adopt a policy of appeasement?

 

 

I don't get too many chances to do this with Tim's posts