Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[buttock]

Come on Bob! Obadiah in the number one spot??? Stop it. I've known you for many, many years, and I know you can't possible believe that.

 

Almost a hundred years before your next most significant event? Tough logic to follow. I've never even heard of Obadiah until this thread, and I've been doing this nearly as long as you.

 

Comics, in my opinion were insignificant until Action #1, and would have remained a footnote in history had he not came along. So, putting any other book in the conversation with Action #1 is silly. In my top ten most significant comics the first the top four are superhero, #5 is a plat (and it varies on which one).

 

Again, another person who remains anon who claims to know me

- tis OK, it's like talking to a wall at times

 

Comic strips in news papers prior to WW2 were one of the main forms of entertainment until TV began knocking them off a perch. Blondie was being read by 100 million persons a DAY, as just one example. So was Bringing Up Father. Superman in the news paper strip version was being read by 20 million people a day

 

-readership of comic BOOKS was like a pimple on someone's a____

 

It is only comic book people who have not studied this art form who seem to think that super hero comic BOOKS are the be-all end-all of the comics business.

 

That is patently silly in and of itself to think that way.

 

What i am talking about when i made my little list of three are the three most important comic books - if all you could do is talk about three.

 

One has to think outside the box of myth and think in terms of the 160+ year history of the comic book business in America.

 

Walt Disney's Comics & Stories was selling 4+ million an issue in its prime

- Looney Tunes are doing 3+ million per ish in its prime - month in, month out

Tarzan was doing 1.5 million - outselling any one issue of Superman

 

have you ever figured out why Dells are so damn common?

 

Many of the Cupples & Leon comic book 10x10s sold over a million copies as well

 

Get outside your generational super hero outlook on comics in America

 

ciorac has made it clear who he is several times. He's far from anonymous.

[comicnut]

Once again the cart before the horse routine.

 

I've just had fun watching this thread up until now but come on, how short sighted can you be.

 

You have to ask yourself the questions, would there have been Action Comics #1 without comics in comic strips? You have to remember why when you pick up an Action #1, it is in the format that it is. Why is Action #1 not 11" x 16" or 10" x 10". How did comics get to be that size. Who the heck decided to create this "magazine" that was devoted to only comics? Who came up with word balloons? Where did comics come from?

 

How can you possibly have Action Comics #1 without first having created a comic in that format, or a comic that gets sold, or a comic among other things.

 

Just think about the title for a minute folks Action COMICS!!!

 

Nuff said.

[ciorac]

Come on Bob! Obadiah in the number one spot??? Stop it. I've known you for many, many years, and I know you can't possible believe that.

 

Almost a hundred years before your next most significant event? Tough logic to follow. I've never even heard of Obadiah until this thread, and I've been doing this nearly as long as you.

 

Comics, in my opinion were insignificant until Action #1, and would have remained a footnote in history had he not came along. So, putting any other book in the conversation with Action #1 is silly. In my top ten most significant comics the first the top four are superhero, #5 is a plat (and it varies on which one).

 

Again, another person who remains anon who claims to know me

- tis OK, it's like talking to a wall at times

 

Comic strips in news papers prior to WW2 were one of the main forms of entertainment until TV began knocking them off a perch. Blondie was being read by 100 million persons a DAY, as just one example. So was Bringing Up Father. Superman in the news paper strip version was being read by 20 million people a day

 

-readership of comic BOOKS was like a pimple on someone's a____

 

I'm not anonymous on these boards, and I do you know you very well. I'm Bill Ponseti. The discussion, where I picked it up, was about the most significant comic BOOK. You then retort with statisitics about STRIPS. Strips may have led to books to be sure, but we are not talking about strips. Action Comics #1 is the single most important comic book, event, and icon of all-time....period. Ask any kid on the street if he knows who Superman is, even if he has never read a comic. Then ask the next 1,000,000 people you run into if they have ever heard of Obidah Oldbuck. If that doesn't equate to importance I don't know what the heck does.

Oh...and when is the epic Obadiah Oldbuck movie opening this summer, I want to get my tickets early, so I can catch up on my sleep while it is on....

 

[ciorac]

I agree with you, but I assume Bob listed them in chronological order.

 

 

at least I HOPE so!

 

Bless you for your sanity.

[ciorac]

I

 

Almost a hundred years before your next most significant event? Tough logic to follow. I've never even heard of Obadiah until this thread, and I've been doing this nearly as long as you.

 

 

Respectfully, if you never heard Obadiah Oldbuck until this thread, then you must have been doing this very part time.

 

As for the 100 year gap between signifigant events...it does sound suspicious at first, but it's actually not, and here's why. Imagine the funnel cloud of a tornado.....the Victorian and Platinum Age would be the skinny part near the bottom, and the Golden Age would be the wide part at the top. At the skinny part, there is not much debris...things ( comics ) are swirling around, but there is not much debth or thickness. Slowly, as the funnel gets wider, there is more substance, more girth, more "comic books", and as the number of different books and publishers increase, so does the number of changes and advances. At the top of the tornado...let's call it the 1930's/1940's, there is great mass, circulation, structure, diversity of debris, and motion...things are really happening, and quickly at the top of the funnel cloud. So my point is, at the tip of the tornado ( Obadiah Oldbuck 1842 ), the addition of other books and changes/advances happened very slowly, as the industry was very new and still forming and finding its stride. Developement was slow and uncertain, as publishers were in uncharted territory, and didn't have the confidence of success they did in later years to go and print millions of a single book. The leap from 1st comic book to 1st superhero in a comic book did take, believe it or not, about 100 years. 1842 to 1938.

 

 

Part time? Hardly. I founded and operated two of the largest, most successful comic books stores the South has ever seen, and have brought to market several very large siginificant collections. I was also a Senior Overstreet Advisor for many years, have had many articles on comic book history published in several large, noted, trade publications. I believe my first comic book sale advertisement hit the trades in 1972.

 

How long have you been that active in the hobby?

 

Now to your point, because a series of trivial events lead to a cataclsym, does that make each of the trivial events (when considered alone) as significant as the cataclysm?

 

A wind blows across the African plain, that leads to a another, larger wind, that gives rise to a drop in the barometric pressure, that then leads to a low pressure system, that drifts out into the Atlantic, where it begins to receive fuel from the warm summer waters, the system becomes stronger, until, at last it moves into the very warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico and becomes Katrina. Ask my neighbors if that wind on the African Plain, is as significant to them as what eventually became of it.

 

So let's not stand on a soapbox and try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh**.

[Aman619]

Again, another person who remains anon who claims to know me

- tis OK, it's like talking to a wall at times

 

Bob, Ive been here three years now. And Ive seen a lot of folks come and go. But its been enjoyable and educational. Youve been stopping by for a few weeks now, and contributing (mightily) to a thread on a subject you love and know pretty convincingly. Sooo, arent you having fun yet?

 

I mean, arent you getting what these types of boards are good at and for? Its like going to a party with people you dont know. At first you are not too friendly and aloof especially as you eavesdrop on their conversations and see "what insufficiently_thoughtful_persons they are." They talk about stuff that you yourself know SO much more about. So at first you try to fit in, but since they are "inferior" in experience and knowledge, you cant help but snort and condescend a bit.

Its human nature.

 

But, after awhile, youre still there, enjoying yourself. And actually talking to these people, which, as a decent human being among peers, tends to stifle the need to lecture. And thats what Im getting at. I think youre settling in here, maybe even opening up minds in ways that your efforts to date havent. At least, you are getting first hand feedback to your ideas. Very different than writing an article and having just the adoring ones come up and fawn at conventions.

 

So, what Im trying to say, respectfully, is: Settle down. Stifle the curt digs already. Youre one of us now. (admit it : dont you get excited to log on and check out who said what in this thread every time??) These comments while fun to type (and are probably 1/10th of what youd REALLY like to hurl at the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons) really get in the way of your message. There have been only one or two guys here who just never got it... and still insult with every other post about etc. I guess thats their nature.

 

I hope it isnt yours.

 

Or maybe Im way off base. Maybe youre like Ian - - a one-trick pony. He came here to finish off his DC collections with boardmembers help. He never commented on anything BUT his quest. And sure enough, once he located the last book, he was gone in a Flash! Maybe once this thread dies down you'll be gone too!? I hope not. If you have the time (I guess you do after all between conventions) there are quite a lot of folks here who share your love of comics...... unfortunately most of them think they started in the last century(!) but you have to forgive them their prejudices!!

 

sorry to rant like a know-it-all.

[ciorac]

Very well said Aman. A good old fashioned debate is a blast. Especially about something we love.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Oh, i have gotten quite a bit of feed back the last decade since John Snyder invited me to teach comics history in the Overstreet - on innumerable comics threads on many other discussion groups.

 

Most of what i have written here is careful factoid comic strip history, and i stick to my guns when i am correct. When i am wrong, made gaffe, i freely admit to it, fix the history and move on to the next item on the agenda. I have spent a decade now unraveling thousands upon thousands of bits of data to make it flow properly chronologically as i taught myself along the way sharing fruits of the research.

 

Bill P, i welcome any and all feedback - it is not obvious to me who all these CB-style handles are on these CGC discussion threads. When have decent down time from running my comics business, i am on some 40+ comics groups. This is the only spot where identity is hidden. When i voice "who be ye", it is from idle curiosity of to whom i am having a conversation.

 

99% of the time, it is enjoyable to be on the CGC threads,

 

That being said, as i developed the comics history articles for OPG, i have always taken that responsibility very seriously. What gripes me, and i will always become defensive on this concept, are the people who think i have developed and compiled the history presented out of some sort of capitalistic agenda which is a main thrust of some of my blowback. I found that sort of banter offensive and responded like for like. That urban myth seems to have died down. On to serious discussion of comics history.

 

This thread is an expando version of a previous one earlier this year called ARE PLATINUM REAL COMIC BOOKS? or something like that.

 

Same-o, same-o in many regards - dealing with people who have a closed mind who have not read thru the 1800s comic strips like i have because I have sought out this stuff, examined it, came to conclusions which have been shared, ready to defend any peer review.

 

My reputation is on the line. Töpffer created 7 comic strip books in his life time, and spawned others to create more comic strips. There are 1000s of comic strips leading up to the advent of Yellow Kid.

 

The three books i listed are my view distilled down to the basic essence

 

Obadiah Oldbuck spawned the comic strip book industry in America - it is not the "first" comic book world wide

 

Action Comics #1 spawned a super hero craze in America which in turn led publishers and distributors to hire more creators which led to all the genres of the 40s, 50s, 60s as well as a national exorcism some call the Comics Code

 

ZAP COMICS #1 spawned an awareness that the creators deserve a piece of the pie which has fueled a consciousness the past almost 40 years far beyond its humble origin.

 

Anything else one adds to the list falls into those three categories

 

But that is just my opinion, all settled down

[showcase4]

Part time? Hardly. I founded and operated two of the largest, most successful comic books stores the South has ever seen, and have brought to market several very large siginificant collections. I was also a Senior Overstreet Advisor for many years, have had many articles on comic book history published in several large, noted, trade publications. I believe my first comic book sale advertisement hit the trades in 1972.

 

How long have you been that active in the hobby?

 

Now to YOUR point, because a series of trivial events lead to a cataclsym, does that make each of the trivial events (when considered alone) as significant as the cataclysm?

 

 

So let's not stand on a soapbox and try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh**.

 

conratulations...sounds like you used to have alot of market experience. I have been active in this great hobby since 1992...long enough to have known about Obadiah Oldbuck for the past deacde, as I'm not still living in 1972 in my mind.

 

Now to your point: I don't think you're going to have many collectors agree that America's 1st comic book is a trivial event. My soapbox for Obadiah Oldbuck is made out of pure gold, as everyone who is fortunate enough to own or have previously owned a copy of this historic book has been blessed with either large returns, or a large addition of a mega-key to their collection.

 

Just because Obadiah Oldbuck is non issue for you, does not make it a non issue to the marketplace. I know of several VERY savvy collectors who would jump at a chance to own a copy of the 1st printing of Oldbuck, and for the type of money I paid last year, if not more. Your lack of understanding is not effecting the books market value at all...that I can assure you.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

I'm not anonymous on these boards, and I do you know you very well. I'm Bill Ponseti. The discussion, where I picked it up, was about the most significant comic BOOK. You then retort with statisitics about STRIPS. Strips may have led to books to be sure, but we are not talking about strips. Action Comics #1 is the single most important comic book, event, and icon of all-time....period. Ask any kid on the street if he knows who Superman is, even if he has never read a comic. Then ask the next 1,000,000 people you run into if they have ever heard of Obidah Oldbuck. If that doesn't equate to importance I don't know what the heck does.

Oh...and when is the epic Obadiah Oldbuck movie opening this summer, I want to get my tickets early, so I can catch up on my sleep while it is on....

 

Hi Bill, Thanks for becoming a "real" person to this old dinosaur

 

When i made my little list of what i consider the three most important comic books of all time, this is something i have felt strongly about for some time now, as i analyze the history. something i have evolved into over the last decade

 

I view comic strips as comic strips, and comic strips were not invented in the newspapers - the format method of entertainment delivery is not important to me more so what the comic strip in question is, and where it fits into the pantheon.

 

The news paper comic strips evolve out of the humor magazines and one can date those aspects of comic strips to the 1850s in America.

 

the comic strip was invented and first appeared in books, with the first Obadiah Oldbuck from 1842 being as much a magazine format as Funnies On Parade, Famous Funnies, or Action #1

 

Hence, i say comic book for all three: OO, Action, ZAP, because that is the current popular term

 

In a comic strip these days, we use the term "panels". Back in the 1800s they used the term "cuts" to mean the same thing.

 

Terms evolve, the artifacts remain the same

 

Twas good running into you at Chicago Wizard again -

[ciorac]

Part time? Hardly. I founded and operated two of the largest, most successful comic books stores the South has ever seen, and have brought to market several very large siginificant collections. I was also a Senior Overstreet Advisor for many years, have had many articles on comic book history published in several large, noted, trade publications. I believe my first comic book sale advertisement hit the trades in 1972.

 

How long have you been that active in the hobby?

 

Now to YOUR point, because a series of trivial events lead to a cataclsym, does that make each of the trivial events (when considered alone) as significant as the cataclysm?

 

 

So let's not stand on a soapbox and try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh**.

conratulations...sounds like you used to have alot of market experience. I have been active in this great hobby since 1992...long enough to have known about Obadiah Oldbuck for the past deacde, as I'm not still living in 1972 in my mind.

 

Now to your point: I don't think you're going to have many collectors agree that America's 1st comic book is a trivial event. My soapbox for Obadiah Oldbuck is made out of pure gold, as everyone who is fortunate enough to own or have previously owned a copy of this historic book has been blessed with either large returns, or a large addition of a mega-key to their collection.

 

Just because Obadiah Oldbuck is non issue for you, does not make it a non issue to the marketplace. I know of several VERY savvy collectors who would jump at a chance to own a copy of the 1st printing of Oldbuck, and for the type of money I paid last year, if not more. Your lack of understanding is not effecting the books market value at all...that I can assure you.

And so it seems that, like many other 1990's entries into the hobby, your "love" for it is rooted in how much money you can make. So, by banging the drum about an insignificant 164 year old blip on the comic timeline radar, you are not merely trying to validate the money you have invested in the book? Or influence the market for such anitquaria?

 

By the way, were you even alive in 1972?

 

And check with some of the larger, more notable collectors or dealers in the hobby and see if my knowledge of the marketplace is dated. I think you will find otherwise. I may not have a booth at shows anymore, as I did for many years, but I still buy and sell tens of thousands of dollars per year in golden and silver age comics. I am not uninformed about plats either, as I once amassed a complete collection of them (the 20th century ones anyway) I learned two things about them:

 

1. They were beautiful to behold and gave me a sense of history when I held them

2. They were the hardest things to sell that I ever owned.

 

As a good friend of mine Rob Hughes once said...

 

"Do you know what is harder to find than early platinum age books? A buyer "

 

Put that in your marketplace and smoke it.

[ciorac]

I'm not anonymous on these boards, and I do you know you very well. I'm Bill Ponseti. The discussion, where I picked it up, was about the most significant comic BOOK. You then retort with statisitics about STRIPS. Strips may have led to books to be sure, but we are not talking about strips. Action Comics #1 is the single most important comic book, event, and icon of all-time....period. Ask any kid on the street if he knows who Superman is, even if he has never read a comic. Then ask the next 1,000,000 people you run into if they have ever heard of Obidah Oldbuck. If that doesn't equate to importance I don't know what the heck does.

Oh...and when is the epic Obadiah Oldbuck movie opening this summer, I want to get my tickets early, so I can catch up on my sleep while it is on....

 

Hi Bill, Thanks for becoming a "real" person to this old dinosaur

 

When i made my little list of what i consider the three most important comic books of all time, this is something i have felt strongly about for some time now, as i analyze the history. something i have evolved into over the last decade

 

I view comic strips as comic strips, and comic strips were not invented in the newspapers - the format method of entertainment delivery is not important to me more so what the comic strip in question is, and where it fits into the pantheon.

 

The news paper comic strips evolve out of the humor magazines and one can date those aspects of comic strips to the 1850s in America.

 

the comic strip was invented and first appeared in books, with the first Obadiah Oldbuck from 1842 being as much a magazine format as Funnies On Parade, Famous Funnies, or Action #1

 

Hence, i say comic book for all three: OO, Action, ZAP, because that is the current popular term

 

In a comic strip these days, we use the term "panels". Back in the 1800s they used the term "cuts" to mean the same thing.

 

Terms evolve, the artifacts remain the same

 

Twas good running into you at Chicago Wizard again -

 

I know you have always been passionate about this stuff. And I respect that, and you. Whatever happened to Richard Olsen? He was next in line behind you in knnowledge about the early stuff.

 

It was indeed great to see you in Chicago, as always. Remember the days in San Diego and the parties we used to have? Such good times.

[comicnut]

I

 

Almost a hundred years before your next most significant event? Tough logic to follow. I've never even heard of Obadiah until this thread, and I've been doing this nearly as long as you.

 

 

Respectfully, if you never heard Obadiah Oldbuck until this thread, then you must have been doing this very part time.

 

As for the 100 year gap between signifigant events...it does sound suspicious at first, but it's actually not, and here's why. Imagine the funnel cloud of a tornado.....the Victorian and Platinum Age would be the skinny part near the bottom, and the Golden Age would be the wide part at the top. At the skinny part, there is not much debris...things ( comics ) are swirling around, but there is not much debth or thickness. Slowly, as the funnel gets wider, there is more substance, more girth, more "comic books", and as the number of different books and publishers increase, so does the number of changes and advances. At the top of the tornado...let's call it the 1930's/1940's, there is great mass, circulation, structure, diversity of debris, and motion...things are really happening, and quickly at the top of the funnel cloud. So my point is, at the tip of the tornado ( Obadiah Oldbuck 1842 ), the addition of other books and changes/advances happened very slowly, as the industry was very new and still forming and finding its stride. Developement was slow and uncertain, as publishers were in uncharted territory, and didn't have the confidence of success they did in later years to go and print millions of a single book. The leap from 1st comic book to 1st superhero in a comic book did take, believe it or not, about 100 years. 1842 to 1938.

 

 

Part time? Hardly. I founded and operated two of the largest, most successful comic books stores the South has ever seen, and have brought to market several very large siginificant collections. I was also a Senior Overstreet Advisor for many years, have had many articles on comic book history published in several large, noted, trade publications. I believe my first comic book sale advertisement hit the trades in 1972.

 

How long have you been that active in the hobby?

 

Now to your point, because a series of trivial events lead to a cataclsym, does that make each of the trivial events (when considered alone) as significant as the cataclysm?

 

A wind blows across the African plain, that leads to a another, larger wind, that gives rise to a drop in the barometric pressure, that then leads to a low pressure system, that drifts out into the Atlantic, where it begins to receive fuel from the warm summer waters, the system becomes stronger, until, at last it moves into the very warm waters of the Gulf of Mexico and becomes Katrina. Ask my neighbors if that wind on the African Plain, is as significant to them as what eventually became of it.

 

So let's not stand on a soapbox and try to make chicken salad out of chicken sh**.

 

There is a huge difference between perception and importance.

What you are saying is that because something is the most well known right now it is the most important. The relevance of cause and effect comes into play here, and in numerous debate the cause always comes out on top because without it there would be no effect.

People are perceiving the hurricane as the most important event because it directly affects them and is tangible to them. That does not make it the most important thing however.

All of the elements that make up that hurricane are more important than the whole, they are the reason that there will be more hurricanes.

 

So you have to ask yourself... are comics being printed today because of Action #1 or because of some other event before it.

 

This leads to the conclusion, that you needed COMICS in the first place, sequential strips, word ballons, format etc.

[ciorac]

"This leads to the conclusion, that you needed COMICS in the first place, sequential strips, word ballons, format etc."

 

True, I don't deny that one led to the other. In fact I stated such a few posts back. The discussion was which comic BOOK was the most important. Therefore the arguments must be made in support of the book you choose. The argument for Action #1 is simply much more compelling than any other comic book. That's it. That is all I am trying to say.

[comicnut]

Then the answer clearly has to be Micronaughts #1.

[comicnut]

Seriously the only reason that you and others feel that Action #1 is compelling is because it is a recognized icon of today. That does not mean it is the most important, just the most widely recognized. If you were to have asked 1000 people in 1920 the same question you would have come up with Buster Brown, or Foxy Grandpa etc. because it is the book they relate to so they feel it is the most important. Again though, just because it is the most recognized doesn't make it so.

[ShoNuff-migration]

Come on Bob! Obadiah in the number one spot??? Stop it. I've known you for many, many years, and I know you can't possible believe that.

It's amazing what one can convince themselves to believe when they're trying to unload $3,000 items at $20,000 a pop.

[showcase4]

And so it seems that, like many other 1990's entries into the hobby, your "love" for it is rooted in how much money you can make. So, by banging the drum about an insignificant 164 year old blip on the comic timeline radar, you are not merely trying to validate the money you have invested in the book? Or influence the market for such anitquaria?

 

By the way, were you even alive in 1972?

 

And check with some of the larger, more notable collectors or dealers in the hobby and see if my knowledge of the marketplace is dated. I think you will find otherwise. I may not have a booth at shows anymore, as I did for many years, but I still buy and sell tens of thousands of dollars per year in golden and silver age comics. I am not uninformed about plats either, as I once amassed a complete collection of them (the 20th century ones anyway) I learned two things about them:

 

1. They were beautiful to behold and gave me a sense of history when I held them

2. They were the hardest things to sell that I ever owned.

 

As a good friend of mine Rob Hughes once said...

 

"Do you know what is harder to find than early platinum age books? A buyer "

 

Put that in your marketplace and smoke it.

 

hey..this is pretty good...so are all my answers to your misguided assumptions:

 

1. I'm in it for the love of the history, with a consciousness of the money so as to not be foolish...if I were in it strictly for the money, I would still be buying high grade silver as I did in the the mid 1990's. This proves how poorly your psychic abilities are working today.....I wouldn't buy only victorian age books if I were focused on money only...too hard to follow pricing trends from year to year due to the scarcity of most books...you have to LOVE the stuff as I do.

 

2. I was 7 years old in 1972...so yes, I was alive

 

3.Victorian and Platinum Age books are THE EASIEST BOOKS IN THE WORLD TO SELL ( for me ).....why? Beacuse I only deal in high demand keys, and know various Victorian/Platinum age collectors, and auction houses, and have an established high profile Ebay account with a flawless reputation for high integrity dealings. My collection is as easy for me to sell at top dollar as any Golden or Silver Age collection you may come across. When you only deal in great stuff, you get a great result. Your friend Rob Hughes probably left this part out of his old saying.

 

4.I don't smoke

[Crowzilla]

Comic strips in news papers prior to WW2 were one of the main forms of entertainment until TV began knocking them off a perch. Blondie was being read by 100 million persons a DAY, as just one example. So was Bringing Up Father. Superman in the news paper strip version was being read by 20 million people a day

 

Where did you get these numbers?

The US Census puts the entire population in 1940 at just over 130 million, and assuming a fair number of these people couldn't read (too young or never learned) it seems like you are stating the entire population of the USA was reading Blondie every day.

[ShoNuff-migration]

As a good friend of mine Rob Hughes once said...

 

"Do you know what is harder to find than early platinum age books? A buyer "

 

Put that in your marketplace and smoke it.