Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[BLBcomics-migration]

you do not know anything other than to prove what a boor you are

 

and a liar

I also know enough to know when I'm talking to an old fashioned snake oil salesman. So, how much are you charging for a bottle these days?

 

who are you besides being an internet coward?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Would part of the definition of a comic book need to include its intended audience?

 

At the risk of greatly over simplifying, comic strips in newspapers were read by adult and child alike. Comic books seemed to be the reading choice of children, as reprint books changed to all original material in the thirties. They were constructed to attract the young mind in cover, content and construction.

 

Who was the audience of OO? Was the work a social satire, a comedy of manners? Was it proper reading in polite circles, or was it frowned upon as being uncouth?

 

I do not think a definition of comic books needs to include it intended audience

 

OO's intended audience was most likely any body who could read - which was not a large percentage of the population way back when

 

Töpffer was a teacher in Geneva Switzerland and his first comic strip books as created beginning in 1828 were intended for his students, in that the various facial expressions he drew were meant to convey various emotions

 

He was urged a bit later to publish them - and he went on to create other comic strip books. He knew he was on to something new back then, and wrote about what this graphic story telling phenom meant to him and how best to tell such stories using pictures in "Essay on Physiognomy" in 1845

 

This essay is translated into English and published in America in Ellen Weise's ENTER: THE COMICS, Univ of Nebraska Press 1965. Töpffer's essay contains all kinds of drawings to aid some one in constructing their own stories using pictures - kind of like Eisner's how to books

 

There is social satire in Töpffer's seven comic strip books - i do not know how much they might have been frowned upon, but Germany's great philosopher Goethe was smitten and urged Topffer to publish and make more of them, which RT did

[ciorac]

 

here is an six panel wordless comic strip from 1617

- there are many more examples in David Kunzle's

first volume of his monumental A History of the Comic Strip

 

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

[Forbush-Man]

Bob,rather than try to convert, why don't you just keep posting material. Your posts interests those of us who sit back a quitely enjoy.

 

[ciorac]

Bob,rather than try to convert, why don't you just keep posting material. Your posts interests those of us who sit back a quitely enjoy.

 

 

They also interest those of us who don't agree with his ascertations. Bob is very knowledeable about comics history, I've stated this before. He is just simply human, and therefore prone to error. In this thread it appears he has errored twice, in over-stating the importance of OO and claiming it to be the first comic book. Pehaps my opinion of old OO will change when the reprint arrives, but the other issue shall remain as it always has remained. Nothing can change that.

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

Personally, I have no problem with this nomenclature; i.e. using "comic book" as a more general umbrella term for all of these various formats and "comic magazine" for what most people consider modern comic books from 1933 and up. That is after all technically more accurate. I will start doing so in this discussion, if for no other reason than for the sake of clarity. But the problem is that for several generations we've been referring to comic magazines as "comic books." That is so engrained that it will be difficult to change. If I talk about comic magazines in this thread or the Platinum thread you know exactly what I mean, but if I were to go to the General Forum and start talking about comic magazines without clarifying what I meant, people would think I was talking about SSOC.

 

Aman makes an excellent obsevation when he says this may be changing as the comic magazine format dies out. Sadly, to me it seems like it almost has already. The future will no doubt be manga and e-comics. Just the other day I wanted to get a Batman comic boo... uh... magazine for my two-year old (he loves the animated series), so I went by the magazine rack when I was in the grocery store. Much to my chagrin they only had three titles - a Spiderman, an X-Men and an Archie - no DC at all! I ended up having to go to my LCS to find a Batman comic! I suppose this is no surprise to those of you who read and collect moderns, but shocked me. The comic magazine format that we all know and love is, I'm afraid, going the way of the dodo after a magnificent 70+ year run.

 

But I digress. Getting back to OO, let's say for the sake of argument that OO is a comic strip, or at least a rudimentary comic strip. If so then all the printings of OO as stand alone books would be comic books in the broadest sense. But what you're also saying is that the 1842 printing in particular is not just a comic book, but a comic magazine as well, or least pretty damn close. That does make it something special. Are there other examples of Victorian comic books that use this magazine/chapbook-like format? Or is the 1842 OO unique in this respect? If it is unique, then it does make it a historical curiosity, but not necessarily significant in terms of the evolution of the comic magazine (which, biased or not, is the POV from which most of us view OO). I don't doubt that Topffer's work influenced Outcault, Opper and others, but this would be in the area of artwork, content, perhaps layout, but not necessarily in printing format. Likewise, Wildenberg, Gaines, Norman Marsh at Humor (?), et al. might have been aware of Topffer's work through reprints, but it is highly unlikely that they would seen that one particular printing from 1842 and said, "Hey that's like a comic dime novel! Great idea! Maybe if I fold this newspaper in half...." In other words, the fact that the 1842 OO format is very similar to modern comic magazines is an interesting coincidence, but doesn't really have any direct link to the appearance of modern comic magazines a century later. The content of Topffer's work, on the other hand, was certainly a major element in the developent of comics in general.

 

It is obvious to me that most of you reading this thread, and many of the respondents, have not seen and read what i have seen and read.

 

That's certainly true. I've started working on a bibliography by culling the many sources you've cited in your previous posts. I've got a lot of reading and catching up to do.

 

It is a proven fact that the 1842 Wilson & Co OBADIAH led to direct inspiration for American creator's to create home grown comic strip books of their own - which we document in the Victorian essay

 

In fact, the very first American original home grown (created) comic strip book THE JOURNEY TO THE GOLD DIGGINS BY JEREMIAH SADDLEBAGS published in 1849 is directly inspired by Topffer's two comic strip books published by Wilson: OO and The ADVENTURES OF BACHELOR BUTTERFLY, printed in America in 1845, which has not been discussed on this thread yet.

 

Printing formats evolved over the decades as well - such as the intro of lithography concepts earlier in the 1820,s the intro of photographic techniques by the 1840s, etc

 

Pulp paper made out of wood was not introduced until the 1870s, prior to that paper was much more expensive

 

There are other examples of OO magazine style comic magazine formats, but it did stand alone for some time in that format - as far as Topffer comic books go

 

Obadiah Oldbuck is what it is - and maybe more people reading this will take an interest in finding out more about it - especially considering i have a dozen copies all salted away waiting for the day they become $50K books, which is my only agenda, that wise comics sage Li'l Sho'Noof has found me out, i stand exposed to the world as one who mercantiles in comics

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob,rather than try to convert, why don't you just keep posting material. Your posts interests those of us who sit back a quitely enjoy.

 

 

They also interest those of us who don't agree with his ascertations. Bob is very knowledeable about comics history, I've stated this before. He is just simply human, and therefore prone to error. In this thread it appears he has errored twice, in over-stating the importance of OO and claiming it to be the first comic book. Pehaps my opinion of old OO will change when the reprint arrives, but the other issue shall remain as it always has remained. Nothing can change that.

 

Yo Fuelman and Ciorac

 

I will continue to post as i have a bit of spare time running my comics selling business, contemplating when an optimum time would be to unload my dozen copies of the 1842 Obadiah Oldbuck i have salted away

 

I am not trying to convert any one here to anything. The history is what it is in the Overstreet history lessons i compile.

 

And it actually does not matter to me if anyone's opines are changed on this thread

 

I believe I have found and shared proper comics history with interested parties on this thread

 

And if Bill wants to continue to believe Action #1 is the most important comic book ever printed, well, more power to him and anyone else, including those in the cheap seat peanut pundit gallery on this thread.

 

OO is the first American comic strip book, printed in "magazine" size, folded-over wrap-around saddle-stitched.

 

It did not introduce the concept of comic strips

 

It is merely the first comic book in America

 

and, thus, becomes the most important comic book printed in America

 

Superman can have his rightful status of most important comics character of all time

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

The cover to Töpffer's 2nd comic book printed in America 1845 plus interior pages 8 15 16

Also by Wilson & Company New York City

[Aman619]

well, Bob, you ARE a comics dealer after all.... there was a great letter in CBG maybe 20 years ago that bemoaned the usage of "dealer" for guy who sell comics because of its obvious, OTHER unsavory popular usage, namely drug dealer... Im not going nearly as far as Shonuff in denouncing you for your chosen line of work, but Steve pursued you, and badgered you, and you did, finally, of course name a lofty "years ahead of its time" price rather than some kind of a purely "academic" trade or other form of lower priced transaction.

 

I seem to recall Geppi himself taking criticism for being the hobby's biggest collector (as well as entrepreneur) and buying the Overstree Price Guide. On the surface, he would stand to gain enormously from owning the goods and PRICING them at the same time, as well as DEFINING their importance too. Seems for Platinum and Victorian Age material, you must acknowledge placing yourself in a very similar position of scrutiny for self-dealing transgression.... I think Steve mostly sold for the usial Guide related prices of anything he may have sold since then....

 

Im just trying to explain the source of some of the animosity you have faced here. (As if you hadnt figured it out already yourself.)

 

If youre gonna be the Man, gotta learn to take the heat.

[selegue]

...

here is an six panel wordless comic strip from 1617

- there are many more examples in David Kunzle's

first volume of his monumental A History of the Comic Strip

 

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

 

Yikes! If you're going to require comical, there goes about 80% of comic books by anyone's definition! Non-fiction, adventure... certainly just about every superhero book infected by grim'n'gritty (unless unintentionally comical qualifies).

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

[FFB]

you do not know anything other than to prove what a boor you are

 

and a liar

I also know enough to know when I'm talking to an old fashioned snake oil salesman. So, how much are you charging for a bottle these days?

 

who are you besides being an internet coward?

 

He's a shill for a 10-time banned user who is just trying to rile you up and derail the discussion. Ignore him, Bob.

[BLBcomics-migration]

well, Bob, you ARE a comics dealer after all.... there was a great letter in CBG maybe 20 years ago that bemoaned the usage of "dealer" for guy who sell comics because of its obvious, OTHER unsavory popular usage, namely drug dealer... Im not going nearly as far as Shonuff in denouncing you for your chosen line of work, but Steve pursued you, and badgered you, and you did, finally, of course name a lofty "years ahead of its time" price rather than some kind of a purely "academic" trade or other form of lower priced transaction.

 

I seem to recall Geppi himself taking criticism for being the hobby's biggest collector (as well as entrepreneur) and buying the Overstree Price Guide. On the surface, he would stand to gain enormously from owning the goods and PRICING them at the same time, as well as DEFINING their importance too. Seems for Platinum and Victorian Age material, you must acknowledge placing yourself in a very similar position of scrutiny for self-dealing transgression.... I think Steve mostly sold for the usial Guide related prices of anything he may have sold since then....

 

Im just trying to explain the source of some of the animosity you have faced here. (As if you hadnt figured it out already yourself.)

 

If youre gonna be the Man, gotta learn to take the heat.

 

Oh, the heat of this kitchen is barely luke warm, I am having fun with Li'l Sho'Noof, he is a quite harmless boor, obviously craving affection and attention in a rude way is his lot in life, for that i blame his mother & father. I figure it is actually Vinnie Z having some fun with me.

 

One of the first things i made the Timonium boys agree to was that as the Victorian and Plat sections grew, i was not going to be a party to "market making" on the earliest stuff. I have watched the Overstreet jokes, then the Geppi jokes, for years and years now.

 

Becoming a dealer in comics material is not what i set out to do, simply a hobby which got way out of hand decades ago. I got wrapped up in the early 1970s with John Barrett (RIP) and Bud Plant starting the first comic book chain store operation called Comics & Comix

 

the first years as the Victorian section grew, there were no prices on anything pre 1870. Even after John Snyder got on my case to include prices, we fought for a couple more years before prices on pre 1870 comics became to be included.

 

Steve Geppi, John Snyder, Bob Overstreet and i have never talked about the contents of what i submit in my section. Not in the ten years i have been doing this for them - the importance or lack thereof they have left to me.

 

What i do have is a peer review group on my Plat list, and there are some pretty vocal scholars on that list - and much of what we have discussed here on this thread was covered there many years ago

 

What i have to keep telling myself is most people here have not seen what i have seen, have not taken it upon themselves to dig for the original artifacts

 

I knew of what you speak long before i got on these CGC boards

 

Why, i remember selling the Tom Reilly pedigree high grade Detective 27 to Burl Rowe in June 1973 for $2200, the first comic book to break the two grand barrier - and there were those who howled

[BLBcomics-migration]

...

here is an six panel wordless comic strip from 1617

- there are many more examples in David Kunzle's

first volume of his monumental A History of the Comic Strip

 

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

 

Yikes! If you're going to require comical, there goes about 80% of comic books by anyone's definition! Non-fiction, adventure... certainly just about every superhero book infected by grim'n'gritty (unless unintentionally comical qualifies).

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

 

Actually, here is the blurb i compiled for this 1617 comic strip for the Vict article Overstreet:

 

The comic strip originated across the Atlantic 100s of years before it was brought over to America by immigrants and imports. Title of this broadsheet example is A remarkable story of how Conchine Marquis d’ Ancre was shot in Paris April 24 (1617), buried, disinterred and burned... A man named Concini is arrested at the Louvre. His hair is pulled out along with his ears, fingers, genitals, heart, lips, nose, tongue and other body parts are cut off and thrust into a fire in front of the Bastille where the royalty can see.

 

EC was a piker? Wertham was right

[selegue]

...

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

 

Actually, here is the blurb i compiled for this 1617 comic strip for the Vict article Overstreet:

 

The comic strip originated across the Atlantic 100s of years before it was brought over to America by immigrants and imports. Title of this broadsheet example is A remarkable story of how Conchine Marquis d’ Ancre was shot in Paris April 24 (1617), buried, disinterred and burned... A man named Concini is arrested at the Louvre. His hair is pulled out along with his ears, fingers, genitals, heart, lips, nose, tongue and other body parts are cut off and thrust into a fire in front of the Bastille where the royalty can see.

 

EC was a piker? Wertham was right

 

Heck yeh! This more than just similar to a grim'n'gritty comic book -- PUNISHER PROTOTYPE! Somebody contact Overstreet!

(Except for the genitals. Even that nasty guy wearing the Batman suit lately has to lay off them because of the Code.)

 

Jack

[showcase4]

maybe before everyone tries to burn Bob at the stake, I can help clarify something like no one else can on this post.

 

I own and have read Obadiah Oldbuck, and have inspected it, examined it, explored it, and understand it like none of you can as non-owners. With this specialized insight into this book, I can tell you that virtually none of it resembles a modern comic book...it has a string for binding instead of staples, it's black and white, has a thin line seperating the comic art from its text, has no cover price, and no rear cover advertising Daisy BB guns. If not for the fact that it tells a story in a sequential manner, you would see 2 completely different apples....however, they are form the same apple cart.

 

Obadiah Oldbuck was printed back in 1842 for God's sake.....do you think there have been technological and printing advances between 1842 and 1938? Bob and I are not saying that Obadiah Oldbuck is a modern comic book....what we are saying, is that it is a comic book...period. The 1st comic book printed in America.

I will continue to buy any and every Obadiah Oldbuck that comes on the market...if there are any left to be had...and this will be a testament to my resolve as a fellow "believer".

[ciorac]

...

here is an six panel wordless comic strip from 1617

- there are many more examples in David Kunzle's

first volume of his monumental A History of the Comic Strip

 

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

 

Yikes! If you're going to require comical, there goes about 80% of comic books by anyone's definition! Non-fiction, adventure... certainly just about every superhero book infected by grim'n'gritty (unless unintentionally comical qualifies).

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

 

It was a joke Jack. Lighten up.

 

I don't require a dadburned thing. I believe what I believe based on years of experience and countless discussions with informed collectors.

 

Bob has his agenda and beliefs and I have mine. Action #1 is unequivocably the most important comic ever printed, and OO might be the first comic book ever printed. The latter is subject to intelligent debate, the former is not.

[Aman619]

thanx for not taking offense at my 'dealer' post. You know, after all this discussion, heres a new take on OO and the rets of the Victorian and Platinum pieces. Why even TRY so hard to have them be comicbooks?? I mean, as you see, most comicbook collectors are lukewarm to them at best, mildly curious sure, but sittting on their wallets when it comes to a question of whether to add them to their comics collection they love and value dearly.

 

And, given comics' low-brow station in American culture, why even try to have them be classified as 'comicbooks'? Wouldnt they have more resonance and stature as just 19th Century books and/or literature? Wouldnt it be easier to deal with them in the book world? I guess they overlap, so its teh same thing by and large... but there sure would be less resistance elsewhere methinks.

[Aman619]

And if Bill wants to continue to believe Action #1 is the most important comic book ever printed, well, more power to him and anyone else, including those in the cheap seat peanut pundit gallery on this thread.

 

OO is the first American comic strip book, printed in "magazine" size, folded-over wrap-around saddle-stitched.

 

It did not introduce the concept of comic strips

 

It is merely the first comic book in America

 

and, thus, becomes the most important comic book printed in America

 

Superman can have his rightful status of most important comics character of all time

 

another smallish quibble here. Words are important, and so is how they are used in drawing conclusions. You quote Bill as stating that Action#1 is the most IMPORTANT comic. Then state that OO is MERELY THE FIRST comic in America and follow that saying "thus OO is the most IMPORTANT."

 

umm, says who? He says IMPORTANT. You say FIRST = MOST IMPORTANT but they are mutually exclusive. Whether OO was first has no bearing on its importance relative to Action#1. I dare say Action#1 will always (most probably) be the MOST IMPORTANT comicbook in America regardless of whatever 19th century work was first. OO if first is a footnote. Action#1 was 'historic' within its medium...and transcended its medium into nearly EVERY cultural facet of modern society. OO appeared and was never heard from again until you and a few others unearthed it in the past few decades. INTERESTING piece, but hardly the MOST IMPORTANT piece of the hobby that grew up around Action#1. no?

 

FIRST is first and IMPORTANT is important. Equating them is a personal opinion others need not share.

[buttock]

And if Bill wants to continue to believe Action #1 is the most important comic book ever printed, well, more power to him and anyone else, including those in the cheap seat peanut pundit gallery on this thread.

 

OO is the first American comic strip book, printed in "magazine" size, folded-over wrap-around saddle-stitched.

 

It did not introduce the concept of comic strips

 

It is merely the first comic book in America

 

and, thus, becomes the most important comic book printed in America

 

Superman can have his rightful status of most important comics character of all time

 

another smallish quibble here. Words are important, and so is how they are used in drawing conclusions. You quote Bill as stating that Action#1 is the most IMPORTANT comic. Then state that OO is MERELY THE FIRST comic in America and follow that saying "thus OO is the most IMPORTANT."

 

umm, says who? He says IMPORTANT. You say FIRST = MOST IMPORTANT but they are mutually exclusive. Whether OO was first has no bearing on its importance relative to Action#1. I dare say Action#1 will always (most probably) be the MOST IMPORTANT comicbook in America regardless of whatever 19th century work was first. OO if first is a footnote. Action#1 was 'historic' within its medium...and transcended its medium into nearly EVERY cultural facet of modern society. OO appeared and was never heard from again until you and a few others unearthed it in the past few decades. INTERESTING piece, but hardly the MOST IMPORTANT piece of the hobby that grew up around Action#1. no?

 

FIRST is first and IMPORTANT is important. Equating them is a personal opinion others need not share.

 

I second that. It's a ridiculous conclusion.

[selegue]

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

 

Yikes! If you're going to require comical, there goes about 80% of comic books by anyone's definition! Non-fiction, adventure... certainly just about every superhero book infected by grim'n'gritty (unless unintentionally comical qualifies).

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

 

It was a joke Jack. Lighten up.

 

My response was a joke too. I am very light.

I didn't really think that you only counted joke books as comic books. I thought maybe the part about unintentionally comical would be a clue, but how's this?

 

 

Jack

(I can't stand those darn things)