Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[buttock]

Let's take a step back for a minute and look at what we've been arguing about.

 

We're trying to define a very abstract entity with very discrete terms. We're actually trying to say that the presence or absence of word balloons or staples can or cannot define what a comic book is or isn't. This is STUPID.

 

In medicine and law there are often definitions like this that - although impossible to create - are nevertheless laid out for the sake of a trial or study. I'm sure some of our lawyers could pull out many examples, but I'll throw out sepsis. Sepsis is an overwhelming inflammatory response to an infection that has neither a start or end of where it is defined. However, if you want to do a clinical trial of a therapy, you have to try to define it for inclusion or exclusion in the study. In the real world when you're dealing with sepsis; you know it when you see it. In fact, there's a saying that we all hear, "Sepsis is like pornography. I can't define it, but I know it when I see it."

 

We all snicker and laugh about how unreasonable it is to try to define something that exists on a continuum rather than having clear cutoffs to a definition.

 

Yet here we are, trying to say that something is or isn't a comic book based on the presence or absence of word balloons and staples. That is absolutely moronic.

 

Bob Beerbohm, for all his labors, is failing to see the line between this "academic" comic book (which is really only a worthwhile definition when you're trying to use it for something unrelated to comics as an item) and the "real world" comic book that kids buy.

 

What this all boils down to is that when it comes to comics, you can't define one, but you know it when you see it.

 

If you showed OO to any 12 year old, they wouldn't call it a comic book - and that's an infinitely more valid definition than any we've managed to come up with.

 

You raise a good point. I'm going to order that Italian reprint of OO and show it to a bunch of convention-goers at the next Con that I attend. I'll keep track of their responses and see whether mainstream collectors consider it to be "a comic book" or "something else, but definitely not a comic book."

 

What "kids" buy comic books any more?

 

Not on my flavor of Planet Earth, not any more, sad to see and say.

 

It does not matter how many kids one stops on a street and asks about comic books - most will say they do not read them nor care to

 

Now, i agree, the history articles in Overstreet covering Victorian, Platinum Era and Origins of "Modern" Comic Books is an attempt at academic scholarship

 

I do agree with you that it is rather a bit on the dumb side to be arguing staples, word balloons and what something is "worth" to define what is or is not a comic book. There are no clear cut definitions as to what a "comic book" is or is not - and there never will be.

 

Especially not with this crowd of consummate comics experts such as Li'l sho'nuff

 

That's entirely irrelevant to what I said. Replace "12 year old kid" with "40 year old computer programmer", "80 year old grandmother", or any other combination of age and identity (save comic art historian) and the principle remains.

[selegue]

I think I mentioned the "ask a spouse" test earlier in this thread.

I can guarantee that my wife would identify the Obadiah reprint as a comic book (more likely "not another darn comic book") and most likely would also identify an original OO as a comic book (after the smelling salts revived her from seeing the price tag).

 

Jack

 

 

....

 

Bob Beerbohm, for all his labors, is failing to see the line between this "academic" comic book (which is really only a worthwhile definition when you're trying to use it for something unrelated to comics as an item) and the "real world" comic book that kids buy.

 

What this all boils down to is that when it comes to comics, you can't define one, but you know it when you see it.

 

If you showed OO to any 12 year old, they wouldn't call it a comic book - and that's an infinitely more valid definition than any we've managed to come up with.

 

You raise a good point. I'm going to order that Italian reprint of OO and show it to a bunch of convention-goers at the next Con that I attend. I'll keep track of their responses and see whether mainstream collectors consider it to be "a comic book" or "something else, but definitely not a comic book."

 

What "kids" buy comic books any more?

 

Not on my flavor of Planet Earth, not any more, sad to see and say.

 

It does not matter how many kids one stops on a street and asks about comic books - most will say they do not read them nor care to

 

Now, i agree, the history articles in Overstreet covering Victorian, Platinum Era and Origins of "Modern" Comic Books is an attempt at academic scholarship

 

I do agree with you that it is rather a bit on the dumb side to be arguing staples, word balloons and what something is "worth" to define what is or is not a comic book. There are no clear cut definitions as to what a "comic book" is or is not - and there never will be.

 

Especially not with this crowd of consummate comics experts such as Li'l sho'nuff

 

That's entirely irrelevant to what I said. Replace "12 year old kid" with "40 year old computer programmer", "80 year old grandmother", or any other combination of age and identity (save comic art historian) and the principle remains.

[Aman619]

yeah.. I wrote a response about your 12 year old comment, but didnt finish or post it cause it was irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. Whether a 12 year old likes comics, reads them, or not, I am sure he could still recognize one.

 

And if you set up a police lineup with a copy of OO, a Cupples and Leon book, an Archie Digest, a SSOC and a Spidey 221, how mant people here really think the kid will NOT pick the Spidey 221??? And he wont even have to ask a clarifying question like "Do you mean 'comicbook', 'comic magazine', or what?? Only the people participating in this thread up to this point would think its a trick question!

[selegue]

yeah.. I wrote a response about your 12 year old comment, but didnt finish or post it cause it was irrelevant to the point you were trying to make. Whether a 12 year old likes comics, reads them, or not, I am sure he could still recognize one.

 

And if you set up a police lineup with a copy of OO, a Cupples and Leon book, an Archie Digest, a SSOC and a Spidey 221, how mant people here really think the kid will NOT pick the Spidey 221??? And he wont even have to ask a clarifying question like "Do you mean 'comicbook', 'comic magazine', or what?? Only the people participating in this thread up to this point would think its a trick question!

 

The kid could only pick one? You really mean, "How many of these are comic books?", right?

 

What's a SSOC? That acronym keeps coming up and I don't know it.

 

I do agree with your point that whether the 12-year-old is a comic-book reader is irrelevant.

 

JPS

[Aman619]

Savage Sword of Conan, which has been used to represent all comics MAGAZINE format books, like Eerie, Vampi etc

[selegue]

Savage Sword of Conan, which has been used to represent all comics MAGAZINE format books, like Eerie, Vampi etc

 

Thanks. You're not really trying to exclude those from "comic bookdom" by only letting that poor 12-year-old kid pick one from the lineup, are you?

I'm one of the people arguing to include comic magazines (very broadly) in the Grand Comic-Book Database, so I hope they make your cut.

 

Jack

[Aman619]

no. I was just making the case that any 12 year old can recognize a comicbook, and, if pressed, or faced with different permutations, would pick the good old 2.99 pamphlet knowing the rest were either BOOKS or other offshoots of comics in different formats... but the pamphet "FOR SURE, DUDE" is a comics.

[ciorac]

Nothing particularly comical about that strip.....

 

Yikes! If you're going to require comical, there goes about 80% of comic books by anyone's definition! Non-fiction, adventure... certainly just about every superhero book infected by grim'n'gritty (unless unintentionally comical qualifies).

 

In fact, if I can tell what's happening on that page despite the rough reproduction, it might fit right into a grim'n'gritty book. People beating on one another, right?

 

Jack

 

It was a joke Jack. Lighten up.

 

My response was a joke too. I am very light.

I didn't really think that you only counted joke books as comic books. I thought maybe the part about unintentionally comical would be a clue, but how's this?

 

 

Jack

(I can't stand those darn things)

Very effective...

 

[selegue]

no. I was just making the case that any 12 year old can recognize a comicbook, and, if pressed, or faced with different permutations, would pick the good old 2.99 pamphlet knowing the rest were either BOOKS or other offshoots of comics in different formats... but the pamphet "FOR SURE, DUDE" is a comics.

 

whereas all of us old fudds would take one look at the $2.99 price tag and say, "No way that's a comic book, man. They only cost 12¢."

 

JPS

[Aman619]

no. I was just making the case that any 12 year old can recognize a comicbook, and, if pressed, or faced with different permutations, would pick the good old 2.99 pamphlet knowing the rest were either BOOKS or other offshoots of comics in different formats... but the pamphet "FOR SURE, DUDE" is a comics.

 

whereas all of us old fudds would take one look at the $2.99 price tag and say, "No way that's a comic book, man. They only cost 12¢."

 

JPS

 

you got that right. I remember 8 for a dollar plus change back! The entire Marvel biweekly output!

[Theagenes]

no. I was just making the case that any 12 year old can recognize a comicbook, if pressed...

 

[ShoNuff-migration]

you do not know anything other than to prove what a boor you are

 

and a liar

I also know enough to know when I'm talking to an old fashioned snake oil salesman. So, how much are you charging for a bottle these days?

 

who are you besides being an internet coward?

My super-hero name is "Pointing-out-scammers-man".

 

And my scammer-sense is going crazy right now.

[ShoNuff-migration]

It is a proven fact that the 1842 Wilson & Co OBADIAH led to direct inspiration for American creator's to create home grown comic strip books of their own - which we document in the Victorian essay

 

In fact, the very first American original home grown (created) comic strip book THE JOURNEY TO THE GOLD DIGGINS BY JEREMIAH SADDLEBAGS published in 1849 is directly inspired by Topffer's two comic strip books published by Wilson: OO and The ADVENTURES OF BACHELOR BUTTERFLY, printed in America in 1845, which has not been discussed on this thread yet.

 

And the inventor of the first car was inspired by whoever created the wheel. Remind me never to buy a tire from you. You're likely to call it the first American car and charge me $20,000 for it.

 

 

Obadiah Oldbuck is what it is

 

It's a book of pictures. However, it's not a comic book.

 

 

...especially considering i have a dozen copies all salted away waiting for the day they become $50K books, which is my only agenda, that wise comics sage Li'l Sho'Noof has found me out, i stand exposed to the world as one who mercantiles in comics

 

I doubt you'll need to sell them anytime soon. Especially since you recently dumped two of your $3,000 copies for $20,000 each after persuading someone into thinking it's a comic when it's not.

[showcase4]

Especially since you recently dumped two of your $3,000 copies for $20,000 each after persuading someone into thinking it's a comic when it's not.

 

...but he told me he loved me

[ShoNuff-migration]

Especially since you recently dumped two of your $3,000 copies for $20,000 each after persuading someone into thinking it's a comic when it's not.

 

...but he told me he loved me

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

SAD TALE OF THE COURTSHIP OF CHEVALIER SLYFOX-WIKIF,

published by Garret & Co c1852-55, 100 pages, 25 cent cover price

 

This comic book inspired by Töpffer's two Wilson & Co NYC comic books

 

NOTE: "with near 200 comic engravings" underneath the two art-filled circles

[ShoNuff-migration]

That's a nice book of pictures.

 

When are you going to post some scans of actual comic books?

[BLBcomics-migration]

That's a nice book of pictures.

 

When are you going to post some scans of actual comic books?

 

My dear (cough) Internet Coward,

 

How do you know what it is?

Do you have a copy of it?

Please post some "pictures" from your copy?

 

No one wants to read what you write,

I am glad you are having so much fun

[BLBcomics-migration]

Especially since you recently dumped two of your $3,000 copies for $20,000 each after persuading someone into thinking it's a comic when it's not.

 

...but he told me he loved me

 

pretty funny considering you cannot get the story straight

 

That was one copy Steve hounded me into selling to him and one of my kids needed some expensive medical tests at the time

 

Steve bought a different copy for $20K from some one in San Francisco, insufficiently_thoughtful_person

[ShoNuff-migration]

How do you know what it is?

I have a strange feeling you'll be selling some of these picture books soon.

 

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