Obadiah Oldbuck vs. Superman

[Theagenes]

Bob, maybe I'm wrong, but I really think that for the most part the resistence you've received is not to OO and Topffer's place in the evolutionary ladder of comics, but to the fact that you call it a "comic book" instead of using a more generic term like "graphic novel." I couldn't help but notice that the Geppi museum in its literature used "graphic novel" instead of "comic book." It seems like such a simple thing, but people take their labels seriously. We've beat the nomenclature horse to death already, but I think but Earl's post awhile back where he pointed out that both you and Shield are right, you are just using two different terms to describe the same thing.

 

On the other hand nothing generates interest like contraversy. Look at how many views this thread has gotten. I'm sure that quite a few people came to this thread just to watch the fireworks, but have gone away with a better understanding and appreciation for these predecessors of the modern comics they collect, whether or not they have any interest in collecting them themselves. Certainly that was the case for me.

[Theagenes]

Re: The Britsh OO on eBay: There seem to be quite a few Obadiahs popping up lately. While I can understand the importance of the first US graphic novel (I'll use "graphic novel" just avoid any more bickering), it would seem to me that this earlier British edition would be much more desirable. The first graphic novel in the English language! Steve, I understand the point you made much, much earlier in this thread about most comic collectors being American and therefore being more interested in the American first and I would agree if we were talking about a typical modern comic book. But, I would imagine that much if not most of the market for Victorian comics and graphic novels comes from antiquarian book collectors and dealers, to whom the British first would be more desirable. Not a great comparison (since the true firsts for Topffer were the Swiss editions), but look at the difference between the British and American firsts of Tolkien's works. Maybe book collectors aren't quite as provincial as we comic book collectors are. Anyway, I know if I were given a choice I would prefer the 1841 British edition, but that's just my opinion. It will be very interesting to see how this auction ends up.

[showcase4]

Re: The Britsh OO on eBay: There seem to be quite a few Obadiahs popping up lately. While I can understand the importance of the first US graphic novel (I'll use "graphic novel" just avoid any more bickering), it would seem to me that this earlier British edition would be much more desirable. The first graphic novel in the English language! Steve, I understand the point you made much, much earlier in this thread about most comic collectors being American and therefore being more interested in the American first and I would agree if we were talking about a typical modern comic book. But, I would imagine that much if not most of the market for Victorian comics and graphic novels comes from antiquarian book collectors and dealers, to whom the British first would be more desirable. Not a great comparison (since the true firsts for Topffer were the Swiss editions), but look at the difference between the British and American firsts of Tolkien's works. Maybe book collectors aren't quite as provincial as we comic book collectors are. Anyway, I know if I were given a choice I would prefer the 1841 British edition, but that's just my opinion. It will be very interesting to see how this auction ends up.

 

I understand the thought process that since the Brother Jonathan US Obadiah Oldbuck is a reprint from Europe, that the European version should be more desirable/more valuable, even to an American collector. It's not the case at all, but I understand the logic behind it.

 

Most of my fellow Vic/Plat collectors limit themselves to American printed comics only. It's a big world out there, and International Victorian Age comic collecting would be such an extremely small niche of a niche of a niche, that you may have to fly to Paris to find a buyer when it comes to sell ...that is not very convienant.

 

Additionally, when I look at the title page of a book that I like, there is something very desirable when I see it was printed in New York City, right here in the old US of A ! We all know I'd pay $20k for the American 1st printing of Oldbuck...because I already did...twice over. To take that to the next level, if a European 1st printing of Obadiah was on Ebay with no reserve and a $1 opening bid...I would pass...wouldn't even bid the buck. I am an American, who lives in America, and want American comics only......and I speak for many others with this sentiment. Look at the resistance and lack of acceptance Obadiah Oldbuck from the US has received on this post....just imagine if it was printed in French!

 

I am always conscious, as we all are, of the possibility or probability that one day it will be time to sell........when that day comes, I need to have multiple options without jumping thru any hoops. This is REAL money I'm spending, and need my investment to be easily liquid....with an "American comics only" mindset, that ease is achieved.

[Theagenes]

Seriously? You're not even going to take a stab at this one? I can see how the Swiss true first editon might not have much appeal to Americans because of the language barrier, but this is an earlier English version. The first English language graphic novel is quite a milestone.

[showcase4]

Seriously? You're not even going to take a stab at this one? I can see how the Swiss true first editon might not have much appeal to Americans because of the language barrier, but this is an earlier English version. The first English language graphic novel is quite a milestone.

 

I have no interest at all....due to the previously mentioned reasons

When I collected Silver Age comics in the mid 90's, I had a certain criteria that I did not deviate from:

 

1. unrestored only

2. raw only

3. VF 8.0 or higher

4. #1, 1st appearance, or origin only

 

Now that I focus on Vic/Plat books, I still have a set criteria, just different than SA:

 

1. unrestored only

2. any condition as long as it's 100% complete

3. American only

4. historically important KEYS only

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

I have no problem calling it a "comic book." I don't recall in what literature we called it a "graphic novel" but the choice of terminology wasn't necessarily intended to exclude it from a particular classification.

 

In the end, the use of the term "comic book" as we're accustomed to it today is really kind of silly and not at all precise, so I view a lot of these labels as interchangeable. I also think the whole "graphic novel" term was ultimately just an attempt to garner more respect for comics when there's really no need to be ashamed by just calling them comics. "Comic books," "comic magazines," "graphic novels," "sequential literature," whatever else - they're all comics.

[esquirecomics]

Look at the resistance and lack of acceptance Obadiah Oldbuck from the US has received on this post....just imagine if it was printed in French!

 

HEY, I bought a French version of Topfer, and I am very happy with it, thank you very much!

[BR-migration]

I would tend to agree -- but mostly because it's signed by Thackeray!!!!! That is ridiculous -- first Whitman in the bound volume and now this. Who says comics aren't literature? If a good scholar can put OO in his hands and start making connections -- could be interesting.

 

But I see Showcase's point -- I teach literature and there's an American side and a British side -- and woe to those who want to cross

 

also, I'm not sure if it was mentioned on this thread but for those who want to at least see parts of OO in their hands, they reprint some with an article in the McSweeney's comic issue from a few years back.

 

BR

www.lastson.greendoorfilms.com

[infinite_comics-migration]

Seriously? You're not even going to take a stab at this one? I can see how the Swiss true first editon might not have much appeal to Americans because of the language barrier, but this is an earlier English version. The first English language graphic novel is quite a milestone.

 

The lack of interest shouldn't be a surprise - he's a Speculator, not a Collector.

[showcase4]

Look at the resistance and lack of acceptance Obadiah Oldbuck from the US has received on this post....just imagine if it was printed in French!

 

HEY, I bought a French version of Topfer, and I am very happy with it, thank you very much!

 

Yes, but you can play this game by a different set of rules......as a high powered lawyer and owner of Esquire Comics, you have the luxury and deep pockets to buy what you like without concern of how or where to sell, because you don't have to sell !

 

Me on the other hand, a poor, struggling mortgage loan officer, has to limit my purchases to what I know I can easliy turn over because I may need the cash to stay afloat...that's one of the drawbacks to being broke...you can't buy whatever you like!

[BLBcomics-migration]

I would tend to agree -- but mostly because it's signed by Thackeray!!!!! That is ridiculous -- first Whitman in the bound volume and now this. Who says comics aren't literature? If a good scholar can put OO in his hands and start making connections -- could be interesting.

 

But I see Showcase's point -- I teach literature and there's an American side and a British side -- and woe to those who want to cross

 

also, I'm not sure if it was mentioned on this thread but for those who want to at least see parts of OO in their hands, they reprint some with an article in the McSweeney's comic issue from a few years back.

 

That McSweeney reprint of the first 10 pages from OO happened because i loaned some material to my friend Chris Ware during a Chicago comicon a few years back. He has a creators block going on at the time, his wife thanked me, as the brief case i loaned him broke open his creative juices, so i was told.

 

The Overstreet Price Guide is about American comic books, hence, i concentrated on American editions in presenting the history. The main reason any foreign (mostly Brit) editions are listed in the Victorian price index is because if it has a Euro-precursor edition we are aware of.

 

Personally, i have a double set of all 7 in French of mid 1800s Topffer comic books - and 4 of those have never been translated into English appearing in their own stand alone comic book, Topffer got progressively better - what became Obadiah Oldbuck was RT's first comic book story, and RT became better at his story telling as time went by

[BLBcomics-migration]

I have no problem calling it a "comic book." I don't recall in what literature we called it a "graphic novel" but the choice of terminology wasn't necessarily intended to exclude it from a particular classification.

 

In the end, the use of the term "comic book" as we're accustomed to it today is really kind of silly and not at all precise, so I view a lot of these labels as interchangeable. I also think the whole "graphic novel" term was ultimately just an attempt to garner more respect for comics when there's really no need to be ashamed by just calling them comics. "Comic books," "comic magazines," "graphic novels," "sequential literature," whatever else - they're all comics.

 

The term graphic novel and/or graphic story was invented by Richard Kyle in an article in Fantasy Illustrated #4 circa 1964 - and the term never took until the emergence of same in the 1970s. Comics were fighting to re-gain a modicum of respectability beginning in the mid 1960s and continued on thru the 1970s.

 

I know this, being part of the front line trench warfare, opening one of the first comic book stores

 

When we first opened the Berkeley Police bugged our phones, convinced we had to be a front for some smuggling operation importing from south of the border - as a comic book store could not possibly be legit

 

In the 1980s, with Watchmen and Maus garnering such favorable reviews in places like Rolling Stone mag, one of the war cries then in play was "Comic books aren't just for kids any more"

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

In the 1980s, with Watchmen and Maus garnering such favorable reviews in places like Rolling Stone mag, one of the war cries then in play was "Comic books aren't just for kids any more"

 

Of course that was hardly original then. People had already been spouting that in articles for decades and still do to this day. It's become a newspaper/magazine cliche for young writers looking for a splashy article to write the inevitable "Bam! Pow! Comics aren't for kids anymore!" piece, as if it just happened yesterday. Crack journalism, isn't it?

[Theagenes]

I have no problem calling it a "comic book." I don't recall in what literature we called it a "graphic novel" but the choice of terminology wasn't necessarily intended to exclude it from a particular classification.

 

Steve was quoting from the book you handed out at the opening:

 

At the end of the grand opening party on Thursday night, the Geppi Museum handed out a very nice hardbound book entitled 'Pop Culture with Character', which includes highlights of some of the museums pieces, and the historical signifigance of the collection broken down into categories and time periods.

 

Here are 2 quotes from page 230, which intorduces the Pioneer age and the Victorian age:

 

"While it may seem suprising to some that comic books were being published at this time, very early art panels from these eras clearly illustrate the beginnings of the modern comic book as we know it today"

 

"The Victorian Age began in the United States when the American humor periodical, Brother Jonathan, printed the 40-page, 195 panel graphic novel The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck by Rodolphe Topffer as a special extra dated September 14th, 1842."

 

That was what i was referring to.

 

In the end, the use of the term "comic book" as we're accustomed to it today is really kind of silly and not at all precise, so I view a lot of these labels as interchangeable. I also think the whole "graphic novel" term was ultimately just an attempt to garner more respect for comics when there's really no need to be ashamed by just calling them comics. "Comic books," "comic magazines," "graphic novels," "sequential literature," whatever else - they're all comics.

 

I acually don't disagree with anything you just said, and we've gone through this numerous times in this thread, but since the term "comic book" has come to mean something very specific (however rightly or wrongly), to so many people, I just think using a broader, more general term like "graphic novel" can avoid a lot of the tit-for-tat arguing. That's all.

[BLBcomics-migration]

In the 1980s, with Watchmen and Maus garnering such favorable reviews in places like Rolling Stone mag, one of the war cries then in play was "Comic books aren't just for kids any more"

 

Of course that was hardly original then. People had already been spouting that in articles for decades and still do to this day. It's become a newspaper/magazine cliche for young writers looking for a splashy article to write the inevitable "Bam! Pow! Comics aren't for kids anymore!" piece, as if it just happened yesterday. Crack journalism, isn't it?

 

I agree, by the 1980s, when many positive reviews began appearing in national mags & newspapers gushing over Alan Moore, art spiegelman, Frank Miller, etc, it was old news inside comics fandom - the struggle to define terms had been ongoing for almost 20 years by then, since that first Richard Kyle article in FI #4 back in 1964, which contained, if i remember correctly, also contained a comic strip by Landon Chesney and one Bob Overstreet, inker, i think he was on it

 

And i agree, the outside media world still seems to be discovering that what we inside comics fandom has known for a very long time now

 

The struggle now is to regain respectability for American comic strip history dating to the 1840s which had been long lost will take a while, education processes which are slow, but steady

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Steve was quoting from the book you handed out at the opening:

 

Sure, no problem. I couldn't recall that we specifically used that term in that spot, but it certainly works. If we had said "comic book" instead though, I wouldn't have felt it was any less appropriate.

 

But like you said, "graphic novel" seems to cover broader ground for some and makes more people happy, and that's cool with me.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

We'll get there, Bob.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bob, maybe I'm wrong, but I really think that for the most part the resistence you've received is not to OO and Topffer's place in the evolutionary ladder of comics, but to the fact that you call it a "comic book" instead of using a more generic term like "graphic novel." I couldn't help but notice that the Geppi museum in its literature used "graphic novel" instead of "comic book." It seems like such a simple thing, but people take their labels seriously. We've beat the nomenclature horse to death already, but I think but Earl's post awhile back where he pointed out that both you and Shield are right, you are just using two different terms to describe the same thing.

 

On the other hand nothing generates interest like contraversy. Look at how many views this thread has gotten. I'm sure that quite a few people came to this thread just to watch the fireworks, but have gone away with a better understanding and appreciation for these predecessors of the modern comics they collect, whether or not they have any interest in collecting them themselves. Certainly that was the case for me.

 

This thread is closing in on 20,000 views now, it will reach that number sometime tomorrow on Wednesday i think, judging by its present rate - definitely interest still exists, and i trust there is a greater appreciation of the earlier comic strip books which sold well and were reprinted for years, enthusing later generations to create their own comic strips as the art form evolved.

 

The term comicbook i will continue to use in the ways i have been in the history lessons in Overstreet - fully understanding the recent evolution of the term to try to narrow its parameters to the floppy folded over stapled pamphlet which is such a small part of what i consider a comicbook

 

all the while I am not trying to create controversy, rather, i seek to end the controversy with decent logical research - but controversy will continue unabated for the foreseeable future, I am afraid, and comics fandom will remain splintered like any other religion, full of sects

[BLBcomics-migration]

We'll get there, Bob.

 

After having been presenting what i consider proper comics history for a decade now in Overstreet, there have been plenty of arrows shot at me all thru that time span. In fact, i know it has cost me business, but the larger picture is more important to me in the long run.

 

I did not know where the research would take its path as i examined the evolution of the comic strip in America, and am proud of what has been presented to date - and i also think most of the heavy lifting has been accomplished, the macro view is near-complete, now what remains is filling in the micro-history, something infinitely more difficult as all the players are long dead, there is no one to ask, hence, we make some educated guesses at times - and i must emphasize based in Spock Logic Fact

[Shield]

 

Me on the other hand, a poor, struggling mortgage loan officer, has to limit my purchases to what I know I can easliy turn over because I may need the cash to stay afloat...that's one of the drawbacks to being broke...you can't buy whatever you like!

 

 

Let's see you easily turn over those 2 illustrated pamphlets from 1842 that you paid $40k for!