Trimmed? you decide...

[DiceX]

Go to work and answer questions all day, then come home to more questions!

Just kiddin. I'll try my best to answer them.

 

how many books are stacked up and trimmed at the same time?

Books are trimmed one at a time.

 

Are all three edges trimmed with the same motion?

No. The "face" of the book (side opposite of the bind) is trimmed first with one stroke, then the top and bottom are cut at the same time.

 

Should a "normal" comic, over time, end up with a v-shape in the open end with the center spread being the widest point?

It depends. A book printed on newsprint will end up in the V shape. This is due to the shrinking pages mentioned in my earlier posts. The shrinkage is less severe in the center of the book. The outside pages shrink more. Possibly due to more exposure to the air and humidity over time.

Newer comics are printed on much better paper. In some cases on paper equal in quality to the cover. Some are even printed on coated stocks. These will be much less likely to shrink up in the V shape you mentioned.

If you could go back and pick up a silver age book from the news stand, it would be very close to being trimmed straight across as comics today are.

 

often we see comics where the staples are as much as 1/4" from the spine fold. How does this happen?

In normal production, the folded pages of the book will sometimes ride un-centered on the binder chain. The book is stitched through the chain. When the book is not riding the chain correctly, it will get stitched off centered of the fold. Meaning that the staples get stuck over into the front (or back) cover.

This is very common and harder to control the smaller the weight of the book is.

Since comics are small and usually very thin, they don't have the weight to hang on the chain correctly without the binder running nearly flawlessly.

 

Are the comics stapled BEFORE they are folded along the spine?

No. Sections of the book are folded as they are running on the printing press.

These folded sections are loaded into the binder for binding.

 

Here is an easy walk through to help you understand how the books are produced.

Go get an old comic book and pull the staples out of it. (Not recommended to use your JIM 83 or AF 15.) Get a crappy one and rip out those staples.

Now pull off the cover and lay it to the side.

Starting on the outside of the book, take the first four sheets (this will be 4 sheets of paper, or 16 actual comic pages) and lay them out on the floor. This will simulate the printing press. The press prints the pages on a long roll of paper, cuts them up into the small sheets, and then folds them along the spine of the book.

Now take the next four sheets, then the next four. Until you run out of sheets.

Each four sheets will represent one press run and will deliver into what is called a section (or form).

 

Take the first four sheets you pulled off and stack them back inside each other in numerical order, and fold them back up along the spine as if they were a small book. This will be "Section 1" of your comic. Lay this to the side.

This is basically what it looks like when it delivers on the press, except they will have a rougher unfinished edge.

 

Do the same for the next "Section". And the next. Until you have several small books that are folded.

Each stack will be made of four press sheets, that when folded will make up 16 pages of your comic. So now you have a few stacks of 16 pages.

Be sure to remember the numbers of your sections. The outermost book is Section 1, then Section 2, etc. The cover of the book will be its own separate section, or "Section 00" as it is often called.

 

Lay your still folded sections on the floor in order from Section 00, Section 1, Section 2, etc.

Now go get a yard stick or something similar that is long and flat. This will be our binder chain.

Now pick up your HIGHEST NUMBERED SECTION and open it up and lay it across the chain with the center spread against your binder chain.

Imagine the chain carrying that piece of the book to the next pocket where the next highest numbered section of the book is.

Take this section and open it up the same way and lay it on top of the first one.

Be sure to keep the heads of the pages on the same side.

Now your chain travels to the next highest section, then the next, etc. until it grabs Section 00 (the cover).

What you basically have now is a complete comic with no staples laying across a ruler *uuum!* bindery chain.

 

Now the book gets stapled. The binder has a wire stitcher that puts the staples in while the comic is still lying across the chain.

You can staple your book back up now, but you won't have the equipment to do it while it lays on your ruler. So simulate it by taking it off and stapling it through the spine then put it back on the ruler.

 

Time to get trimmed...

The comic passes into a set of rollers that slide the book off of the chain and lay it down flat on the machine.

Remember that the edges of the book are still unfinished, so the book runs along a conveyer belt that takes it into the trimmer.

The trimmer squares up the book by the spine, then a guillotine type blade chops off the "face" of the book. (Remember that is the side opposite of the spine)

The book continues along the conveyer to the next set of blades that cut the top and bottom of the book at the same time.

This is exactly why some comics have the polygon shape. After the first cut the comic can sometimes become misaligned and turn slightly on the conveyer.

Remember that comics are small and light weight, so gravity has a tougher time holding them in place for that second cut.

 

Now your book is ready to be stacked up and shipped out.

I guess this is "Binding 201".

 

 

Back to the questions...

 

Are comics trimmed before or after folding?

As seen in the above (very long winded) description, they are trimmed after folding.

 

It seems that new comics are trimmed after folding because all edges are dead straight? Like this c========I

 

Then older comics look like this: c=======>

 

When this transition happened?

There is no transition. They were always trimmed straight.

Humidity, temperature, and air cause newsprint pages in the older books to lose this straight trimming due to page shrinkage.

Also described above.

 

What kind of blade is used for trimming?

"Guillotine" type or "pizza slicer" type (round rolling blade)?

Guillotine type. But it has more of a diagonal movement to it. It's not a straight downward cut.

 

That is, the centerspread will be displaced a distance of 16 times the thickness of a sheet of paper from the inside of the cover.

What you are describing here is called "Shingling". You are correct in your description of it.

However, books were still cut after they were folded.

 

 

Now on to povertyrow's comments...

You nailed it, man. Great comments.

Comics were printed with VERY low quality standards.

They were expected to be rolled up and put in some kid's back pocket and tossed into the trash when he was finished reading them.

The old comics were never inteded to last in Mint condition for 30+ years.

They were printed as cheaply as they could be. Quality was the last thing on anyone's mind.

 

It's good to find an old school Prep guy here.

Prep used to be an art. Now it's just data transfer.

It sure has changed a lot since I started working in the trade.

Nothing is the same as it was 5 or 10 years ago.

Well...other than deadlines and press problems.

[DiceX]

I hope I don't get banned for making such a long post.

[HighVoltage]

Ok - my 2cents...

 

You guys have to understand, like POV said, that comics (particularly silver age issues in this case) were at the bottom of the rung quality-control-wise (I mean LESS than supermarket inserts even!). Basically slap the plates on the press and let if go, for however many impressions + makegood for printing errors. These things were created to keep the presses running during the 'down time,' and that's what happend. The presses ran.

 

Therefore, particulary with what technology was available (in the trim/bindery process) back then, expect varying results in sizes of books. It happened.

 

Yes, the presses were configured and 'set' to handle comics, including 'lock downs' of trimming and folding machinery. The bindery and folding elements have almost always been directly attached to the end of these huge (2, 3 or 4-story-tall) presses. Once the roll begins to reach the end of the press, with it's impressions/ink on it, it generally runs through a hard/sharp edge (and it runs full speed, boys) that creates the initial fold in the paper. Where this fold is on a comic, depends upon paper size and how many images (or impositions) are up on the paper.

 

After the initial fold, still running at a high speed, the paper runs through the first cut - this is a trimmer that would slice the folded paper into big sheets. These sheets get run down a conveyer-type devise & are slammed up against a hard edge and the sheets are folded again. Now you've got your first signature - of four pages (which would read in the comic like Page 1, Page 2, Page 31, Page 32 - if you've got a comic with 32 pages - divisible by four - as a previous poster said!). All these sigs go down to the end of the conveyer and probably get dumped into a box or on a pallate or shunted to the next stage via conveyer.

 

Once you get all your sigs for a particular book together, tucked one-inside-another (or stacked properly), they go to the next trimmer. The books are then cut along the top and bottom edges (to cut open those sigs, so you can open and enjoy your comics) and then trimmed to size. You gotta know that there is and extra bit of paper on all edges when they come off the press, so that they can go through this process! Now, of course, your trimmer should be 'locked down,' but when those sigs/pages go through the process, it's not always an exact, snug fit of how well they fit into the 'trim/cut' area. These things got SLAMMED in there, because these were high-speed, quick 'n' dirty products! Therefore, you WOULD have some varying sizes on some books. But most everything should have fallen within 1/16" to 1/8" of an inch, I would think. The newsprint MIGHT have shrunk a bit from the ink coverage, but in all my years (16+) in the print/design/etc. field, I've never noticed it too much.

 

Once the guts of the book were jammed together and trimmed, they were sent on down the line to get slammed into the covers of the books and then they were stapled. After being stapled, you've got a complete book & they were probably stacked & bound with whatever other Marvels were going out that week & then shipped out.

 

If you were lucky, you got a book with a perfect cut and staples right on the spine. Most of the 60's Marvels had bigger covers, particularly, it would seem, the earlier 60's books. They probably had a different trim size than the guts of the books. I cannot tell you what these standard sizes were, since I wasn't there!! But it IS damn rare when you get an EXACT match on the size of the cover AND the guts of a 60's Marvel book - most of us have noticed that. But it is possible. No accusation here one way or another, just an observation. I would say it's more common to see a nicer book closer to the late 60's than the early 60's come out of the printing plant, as Marvel became a bigger client (and had more weight in the say-so of how their books were printed) and technology got a little better (better presses, better ink, better paper - note the whiteness of page quality & covers, particularly so, after about 1965, compared to earlier Marvels - , better trimming & bindery machinery), Marvel's QC at the printing plant & overall quality of the process went up a bit.

 

These books weren't manufactured to be freakin' collectibles. They were not really manufactured with care. They were put together as fast as possible from start to finish (at Marvel and at the printing plant). I say this to back up POV's note about a lack of QC. Unless the press started making some noise or a roll broke or some heavy, heavy ink started laying down, the press boys just let these things run and the bindery boys slapped 'em together. This isn't to say they didn't have pride in their work and that Marvel didn't care about the quality either - it's just that these were quick 'n' dirty products.

 

A lack of QC/quick 'n' dirty product, is why you see more variance in those books than today's product. This is why books got mis-wrapped (crooked, rolled over onto the back, double & triple covers, etc.) and books got mis-stapled (on the back, on the front, one staple, staple pops, etc.). You COULD put 10 copies of the same book, from various points in the print run, on a table (RIGHT AFTER THEY'VE BEEN BOUND, HOT OFF THE PRESSES - we're talking a 1960's SA Marvel here, folks), and measure them all and come up with a bit of variance in cover size, interior page size, sharpness of trimmed edges, color strike (interior & exterior), cover gloss, but overall, they'd all be pretty damn close in quality. I do NOT know what CGC uses as a standard size to determine if a book has been trimmed, or what variance they'll allow. That's one of the overall problems with CGC - no one knows what their standards are about many things.

 

So, is the book trimmed? No way can I tell from a computer screen. You'd have to hold the book in your hands & compare it to other SA books - even better if you've got multiple copies of the same book handy. If it's 3/8" or more (total, adding top & bottom, or more than 1/8" on the right edge), I'd be suspicious. If the cover edges & interior edges match perfectly, I'd be suspicious (even though this IS within the realm of possibility). I'd also be suspicious if my open edge cut was a perfectly straight edge & not a slight ' v,' as another poster mentioned, since the books were CUT and then finally folded over to create the spine of the book - NOT fold and THEN cut (although, technically this COULD be within the realm of possiblity - just rare).

 

Ok, so that was maybe more than 2 cents & not perfectly text-book explained, but hope it helps explain that there IS variance in the process of printing AND trimming/binding a book (and it's a big, bulky, fast, rough process!), particularly a 1960's Marvel comic book that was never intended as anything more than cheap entertainment meant to be discarded (although we still love 'em today!).

[HighVoltage]

I hope I don't get banned for making such a long post.

 

Sheesh - I'll be right there with you, then!

[PovertyRow]

Tell this to Poverty Row!! He'll get as big a hoot out of your "theorey" as I did!!

The only person on here (all forums) who spells "theory" as "theorey" is hammer/Methuselah/comic-keys/Black Shotzy. Do a search on "theorey" & you will see what I mean. Any posts attributed to anyone else contain quotes from hammer/Methuselah/comic-keys/Black Shotzy. Hence, other names may show up, but they are merely quoting in their text.

 

Pah! I spell theory "theorey" too!

 

Sorry - I just could NOT resist that! Hope you understand the deranged workings of a lunatic mind!

[Aman619]

Dice and Voltage, many thanx to both of you ....you both filled in many gaps in my understanding of the process, and answered my questions, too.

 

Do we have time for another before recess?

 

Okay. Sparta printed the newsprint insides...and Eastern Color handled the higher quality covers. So, Eastern shipped the covers to Illinois? Were these covers untrimmed, and 4-up when they were shipped to Sparta? If so, were they cut down in Sparta to just the final size plus bleed before getting to the chain? Then placed into the binding process in a similar way that the sections were lined up (00, 1 2 etc), right?

 

 

[HighVoltage]

Dice and Voltage, many thanx to both of you ....you both filled in many gaps in my understanding of the process, and answered my questions, too.

 

Do we have time for another before recess?

 

Okay. Sparta printed the newsprint insides...and Eastern Color handled the higher quality covers. So, Eastern shipped the covers to Illinois? Were these covers untrimmed, and 4-up when they were shipped to Sparta? If so, were they cut down in Sparta to just the final size plus bleed before getting to the chain? Then placed into the binding process in a similar way that the sections were lined up (00, 1 2 etc), right?

 

 

Hmmmmmm... Good question here. I've been at plants where interior inserts have been brought in from outside & cover material has been brought in from another place. In the case of an interior insert, they're almost always pre-trimmed to exact size & then placed, blown-with air, or stapled inside. However with a cover, things can depend on your own bindery process - as to how trimmed or 'final' they are. I'm of the opinion that they were probably already trimmed to size & then inserted (flat) into Sparta's final fold process, where they were married with the guts, just prior to stapling. I kinda doubt Sparta ever trimmed the covers & that they left EColor knocked down to final size. Dice may have better info than me re: Sparta & their process in particular.

 

My guess is they were fed into the bindery process from another conveyer/chain & slipped/slammed/nudged/folded over the guts in one slam-bang process & then on to stapling.

 

Just because the bindery process is at the end of the press, don't think of it all in a straight, linear line. Sometimes there are two or three (or more) different twists & turns a mag/book/product can take before heading on to different destinations (hence the separate entrance of the covers from another belt/chain).

 

Does that shed any light/offer any insight? Whew. Gotta hit the hay and rest the fingers!