Trimmed? you decide...

[fantastic_four]

Does anyone buy into the idea that SA comics were trimmed AT THE PRINTER at different widths? Up to a 1/16" difference? I dont. Ive seen and bought (never sold) tens of thousands of comics and while sizes and dimensions have changed over the years, every copy of each issue was manufactured to the same specs. We're not talking about miscut books, on an angle or with large areas lopped off.

 

Therefore when two copies are compared side to side and one is thinner in width, the original Sparta trimming machine has undergone a "second opinion" somewhere after manufacture and distribution.

 

Hammer's right, using height and width is no way to judge a trim. The typical Silver Age Marvel hovers around 6 and 3/4" wide but I've seen them 1/4" wider or narrower. I own a Spidey 20 that's a full 7", and I've seen CGC books in a Universal holder that are only 6 and 1/2". I usually use 7" E-Gerber full-backs for my Silver books, but on that Spidey 20, I had to use a Golden age board because of the wide cut. Borock has also commented about how inaccurate the trimming seems to have been at Sparta back in the 60s.

 

---

CREDIBILITY DISCLAIMER: Please note that this or any other post defending Hammer/comic-keys is not an explicit endorsement of his opinions or of the man himself. He's a smart, experienced guy with a lot of valuable insight into comics, but unfortunately, his penchant for spreading disinformation as a smokescreen makes the Iraqi Information Minister's continuous crapola about how the "Americans are on the run" during the extremely short Iraq-American war look like the mumblings of an absolute amateur. END DISCLAIMER

[jonnydouble]

I like the disclaimer...can we make that standard issue on all Hammer threads?

 

J.D.

[fantastic_four]

Feel free to pirate any and all text I post on this forum.

[BlackShotzy-migration]

How would someone know about Pov's printing background? I would have to be Hammer to know about Pov's printing background?

 

It all started in Kindergarten with ", Jane, and Spot". From that humble beginning, I was somehow able to acquire enough reading experience through the passing years that enabled me to decipher some of Pov's excellent threads and posts about PRINTING right here on this very Forum. Imagine that. Someone amongst you that can read AND comprehend! What a novel idea!

[Joanna]

How would someone know about Pov's printing background? I would have to be Hammer to know about Pov's printing background?

 

It all started in Kindergarten with ", Jane, and Spot". From that humble beginning, I was somehow able to acquire enough reading experience through the passing years that enabled me to decipher some of Pov's excellent threads and posts about PRINTING right here on this very Forum. Imagine that. Someone amongst you that can read AND comprehend! What a novel idea!

 

So... what are you saying, BlackShotzky? You see, like everyone here except you, I'm having trouble reading AND comprehending all these squiggly lines.

 

-- too stupid to know her own name.

[ImageMask]

oh shotzy...oh shotzy.. "GO... GO.... gentile now into that good night" or something like that. It's been a while since "kindergarten". I'm new here and follow the posts more than I post but your post and reply's give me a headache. Hell, I don't even follow the post anymore when your name shows. Too much BS to read. Give up the e-bay name you use, post something constructive, quite being so defensive or just show something to prove your not the previous "banned" user Or just GO....GO....

 

'nuff said

[DiceX]

I can tell you for a fact that there can be different widths from the binder.

I know because...

I am a printer!

50% of the people I work with used to work in the Sparta plant.

Believe me, I've asked tons of questions about how they used to print comics.

 

Books can vary through the print run.

It's just a matter of a setting in the binder.

You honestly don't think that there are specific binders that bind every individual size of books printed, do you?

[fantastic_four]

I can tell you for a fact that there can be different widths from the binder.

I know because...

I am a printer!

50% of the people I work with used to work in the Sparta plant.

Believe me, I've asked tons of questions about how they used to print comics.

 

Books can vary through the print run.

It's just a matter of a setting in the binder.

You honestly don't think that there are specific binders that bind every individual size of books printed, do you?

 

WHOA! I've always wanted to talk to those Sparta printers from the 60s.

 

Did they used to trim the books before assembling them or after assembling them? The cut of the right edge of a book such as the one below doesn't make sense to me if it was cut pre-assembly:

 

 

[DiceX]

If you have a local printer near you with a bindery, I suggest you call them up and ask for a tour.

Most printers have regular tours and are proud to show you an overview of the craft.

 

The body pages and covers are printed seperately (obviously).

Each untrimmed section of the book is then fed into a pocket in the binder.

The pages are folded down the spine, but are made up of 4, 8, 12, 16, 20, 24, 28, or even 32 individual pages in each section. (They can be up to 128 pages in certain presses and formats.)

Note that each section must be divisible by 4. One sheet folded in half to create four pages (front and back).

The pages are delivered on the press that will stack and prefold the sections of the book.

 

Back to the binder...

Each untrimmed section is loaded into a "pocket" on the binder.

The binder has a long chain with a tooth on it that grabs one section of the book from each pocket and stacks them inside one another.

When it gets to the end, it gets "stiched" (stapled).

Then it goes into the trimmer.

The trimmer cuts the book on the top, bottom, and face.

Then it stacks a predetermined number of books and straps (or shrinkwraps) the bundle to be put on a skid and shipped out to distributers.

The size of the book is easily changed by the operator. If he notices during the run that an element of the book is getting trimmed off, he can trim it slightly larger to prevent text (or whatever) from getting cut off.

If he (or she) notices that a page that should bleed off the sides is showing a little strip of white, it can be trimmed slightly smaller.

Binders have quite a size range that they can trim.

Ours trim books from 6"x10" up to 10"x16".

 

I think the idea that books are cut before they are assembled comes from the fact that the covers are sometimes slightly larger than the body pages.

This is actually caused from the newsprint that comics used to be printed on.

See...the paper has just gone through the printing press that uses ink and water to transfer the print to the page. The water ("etch" or "fountain solution") causes the paper to shrink. It usually doesn't stop shrinking until the book has been bound.

The paper used for the cover is much higher quality, and thus does not shrink as much as the newsprint used on the inside. So what you end up with is a cover that is slightly larger than the body pages. Even though the book was evenly trimmed when it was bound.

 

And there you have it.

Binding 101.

[BachelorOfComix]

Tell this to Poverty Row!! He'll get as big a hoot out of your "theorey" as I did!!

The only person on here (all forums) who spells "theory" as "theorey" is hammer/Methuselah/comic-keys/Black Shotzy. Do a search on "theorey" & you will see what I mean. Any posts attributed to anyone else contain quotes from hammer/Methuselah/comic-keys/Black Shotzy. Hence, other names may show up, but they are merely quoting in their text.

[Aman619]

Dice Dice Baby!!! thatwas a great post. We have discussed the manufacture of comics here often in an effort to understand when trimming may have been done, as well as other effects that maye have originated in binding etc.

 

Thand you for a hands on explanation! One question however. I stand corrected thata comicmay be "created at different widths as you say, BUT--- Sparta did a huge daily business with comics, right? So there must have been standards to comic trim size. So even though the trimmer/bindery machine are adjustable to different trin sizes as you state, they woul dhave CERTAINLY be set and LOCKED IN at the standard size ad agreed upon by DC/Marvel and Sparta in their cost contracts.

 

So I understand that in printing 100s of thousands at a time, the bolts may loosen and the blades move wider or narrower. Is that what you are saying happened? Because we are trying to ascertain why or if different copies of the same issue would be different widths or sizes.

[DiceX]

I'm a walking info center on printing.

I live it every day.

If you have a specific question centered along printing or defects in printing, let me know and I can probably answer it correctly (or close).

I can at least tell you how or why the defect would happen.

 

World Color Sparta (in Illinois) was the plant that Marvel (and some DC) comics were printed in.

I can't give the exact years, but it would probably be from around the early '60s to mid '80s.

The standard comic size changed through the years. But yes, there were standard target sizes that they tried to produce.

 

During normal production, the binder is adjusted to different sizes for QC purposes.

It is not "locked down" so to speak.

As the changing conditions of the sections being fed into the binder dictate, the trim is changed.

The changing conditions would include varience in the product being delivered from the pressroom. Fold being off, cut wandering from where it should be, paper travel of the web along the width of the print, paper shrinkage, etc.

 

It is very possible for the trim to be off because the blades weren't tightened down properly. But more likely that it was a QC issue. Blade travel would be more of a skew problem that is seen on some books.

The operator pulls a sample at least every hour for tracking quality.

If he feels he can improve the look of the book being produced, he makes adjustments up to and including changing the trim size.

The change could be up to 1/4" in some cases. Sometimes more.

 

I hope this helps explain it a little better.

If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

[Aman619]

how many books are stacked up and trimmed at the same time?

 

Are all three edges trimmed with the same motion?

 

Should a "normal" comic, over time, end up with a v-shape in the open end with the centerspread being the widest point? (and what is the correct term for the long edge on the right side, opposite the spine???)

[Aman619]

often we see comics where the staples are as much as 1/4" from the spine fold. How does this happen?

 

Are the comics stapled BEFORE they are folded along the spine?

 

 

[PovertyRow]

Well, am answering to the oringal post because I saw my name being invoked. One really cannot depend on meausuring comics. The trim can and will be different. It really doesn;t matter how many books one handles, we are talking about HUGE runs here with pretty varying QC. That is one of the things about a press run - QC is an ongoing thing and unless someone is really paying through the nose for a super-hq ultra print job, then there are going to be color shifts, trim shifts, stitch shifts etc.

 

There is simply too MUCH, especially in something low-end like a comic book, to have more than an ocassional QC check and adjustment, so books are gonna be out there with all manner of miscuts, over/unders, color shifts etc.

 

I am taking no sides here - just talking from my experience.

[PovertyRow]

I'm a walking info center on printing.

 

Hey Dice VERY sweet explanation of the printing process. I am frm the "old school" pre-press. We had Crossfield 645 and Hell 300 scanners. Gawd knows what are being used now. Scitec (sp?) was just starting to really get into things. I remember going to their company with a stack of 4x5 transparencies and mechanicals. There scanner operator scanned the transparencies (I was the QA and Production Manager of my pre-press house) but I did all the stripping on their machine. Man it was amazing in those days!

 

Anyway, just wanted to say that was a very nice explanation of the process - better than this addled brain could give!

[BlackShotzy-migration]

Pov, Doesn't matter. If God himself transported Aman back to the factory in Sparta, 1966, stuck a ruler in Aman's hand and made him measure every Spiderman #56 as it came off the press, even if 95% were a different size from one another, he still wouldn't recognize or admit that this was the case!

 

He couldn't, it wouldn't support his argument on the Spiderman #56 that it's trimmed because all of the tentacle doesn't show on the right edge, as it does on the one out of 14 different #56s that can still be viewed on Ebay that he chose as his "example" to determine trim, while ignoring the other 13 copies.

 

Kudos to Aman for having a mind narrow enough to look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same and still not see anything on the other side.

[Arty]

DiceX:

 

Are comics trimmed before or after folding?

It seems that new comics are trimmed after folding because all edges are dead straight? Like this c========I

 

Then older comics look like this: c=======>

 

When this transition happened?

 

What kind of blade is used for trimming?

"Guillotine" type or "pizza slicer" type (round rolling blade)?

 

 

[Aman619]

Arty-- its an interesting question I hope Dice comes back and answeres...and if he has diagrams even better since words get confusing describing these elements.

 

I thought about your "before and answer" trim question. One way to find out would be to take a new comic apart and measure the total width of the opened centerspread against the first spread (pgs 1, 2, 31, 32). If they are folded and then cut straight on the edge (which I believe) then the centerspread will actually be shorter in total width due to the compacting of 16 sheets of paper in the spine. That is, the centerspread will be displaced a distance of 16 times the thickness of a sheet of paper from the inside of the cover. It should therefore be shorter by a total of twice the displaced distance from the spine. (too many words I know...we need a picture here)

 

And--if they were trimmed as 'opened spreads' and THEN folded (which would actually make the stapling easier since they would staple 'normally' against a flast metal surface to crimp the ends together on the inside and as such is a good argument for THIS answer) then we would see the v-shate on the cut side, as you describe we see in most older comics that have not been re-trimmed. The V is caused by the displacement from the spine.

 

But one reason why this may not be the process is that this way, they can only trim one book at a time....somehow I believe they must get thru the comics faster than that.

 

Maybe Dice can direct us to a website thta explains all this......

[PovertyRow]

Pov, Doesn't matter. If God himself transported Aman back to the factory in Sparta, 1966, stuck a ruler in Aman's hand and made him measure every Spiderman #56 as it came off the press, even if 95% were a different size from one another, he still wouldn't recognize or admit that this was the case!

 

My response was to no one in particular and deliberately generalized. I really HATE it when my posts gets angled into an attack on someone else.