Anyone attend the NOD panel at SD Con?

[BassGMan]

Tim:

 

great finally meeting you in person --

 

at any rate -- I think your outlook is perfectly reasonable based on that meeting as well... the only thing I'll add is that I wish you had offered some of those thoughts during the actual meeting -- and I say that because I think that it would have offered some balance to the meeting -- because some of the points are very valid (and this is someone who clearly disagrees with the basics of the NOD).

 

I will add though that this is the first truly positive spin I've seen on the meeting... but -- I don't think the education outlook is a pipe dream. Ultimately, getting people to agree to be bound to the decision of a few people in an organization that wants such a wide net is really practically difficult. If disclosure -- or at least most dealers disclosing -- is truly the main goal -- I think there are other ways to approach it.

 

Tim and Brian, geez, after reading your posts I feel almost like a simpleton. Some very well thought out comments. And Tim I do agree with Brian that some of your thoughts would have been useful during the forum as frankly Mark's creation was being blasted by those outspoken few. But Tim your comments here also did help me see some new insight into possibly why the dealers were saying what they did. Very well said.

 

Overall though, I thoroughly enjoyed the panel from a spectator's point of view. Some real passion and emotion was displayed.

 

And Brian, I was hoping to get a chance to speak with you but you left briefly before the meeting had ended. I recognized you from a photo that had appeared here a while back. I was on the left side in the third row. The other dude in the room (besides SB) with a pony tail.

[divad]

Basically, the take appeared to be that while they admired the purpose of the NOD, they thought that it was an idea that would benefit a newbie dealer, but not benefit the established dealer at all

 

Who might those "newbie dealers" be? And why would it benefit them?

[divad]

If I was a neutral observer beforehand, I certainly would have walked away thinking that NOD must be on to something, because something about it certainly seemed to be scaring the hell out of the dealers. I think it's ironic that on the one hand the dealers kept saying that none of the major industry insiders had been consulted, and on the other hand they seemed so concerned by the actions of a bunch of lowly nobodies.

 

As it should be.

[divad]

Now here's a defense, I never thought of . . . leave it to Heritage to have a laundry list of these . . . "It's not my dog . . ."

 

I thought Ed Jaster made a good point that more thought needed to be put into the disclosure rules applicable to auction houses and consignment shops since there is only so much they might know about a book, particularly a consignment site like Comiclink or Pedigreecomics where Josh or Doug might never even see the book until the sale is completed.

[divad]

Tim,

Some very good thoughts - thanks for the perspective.

-David

[shadroch]

Has Mark posted his thought on this,in depth,anywhere yet?

[Foolkiller]

The idea that the dealers are "scared" is probably not correct -- I would probably say, concerned that this will be another outlet causing headaches for the dealers that are not in need of the NOD. I guess if major dealers don't join then I guess I would say, as I did during the meeting, that there seems to be only a marginal benefit to being a member of the NOD.

 

It's a concern that I think is legitimate, plus the notion that without being consulted, words like "arbitration" and other words indicating a need to make things advesarial seemed to be the focus (even if unintended).

 

I guess my feeling is that if there were others who got an impression that Mark and Brent needed more support, there was not one comment during the course of the meeting that I heard that clearly supported the framework as set up.

 

I think the NOD could be something different -- and still accomplish its goals AND perhaps build into what it wants to be. Starting as completely overcomplicated as it is now is more ambitious than it needs to be as well.

[lou_fine]

Tim;

 

Some very good points that you have raised. Appears to be very reasoned and well thought out.

 

Kudos to you for your input!

[RareHighGrade]

Did the Crippen collection come up in any conversation about pressing and Heritage?

 

Banner, at the Con, I specifically asked Heritage whether any pressing or other work was done to the Crippen collection, and they confirmed that the books were left untouched.

[esquirecomics]

Everyone, I will be posting something shortly so please bear with me. I am looking to do so through my NOD hat rather than just my personal observations at first so it needs to be coordinated with others.

 

But let me say this: I had some major dealers and players in the community speak to me privately in SD about the NOD applauding its existence and indicating they are very interested in joining. Some of them were at the panel discussion but chose not to speak up, for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day, time will tell how the membership grows and you will be able to see for yourself on the website just who is a member. Remember, we have just started the effort. In any event, from my perspective, I thought the panel discussion was very successful.

[Forbush-Man]

[Foolkiller]

But let me say this: I had some major dealers and players in the community speak to me privately in SD about the NOD applauding its existence and indicating they are very interested in joining. Some of them were at the panel discussion but chose not to speak up, for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day, time will tell how the membership grows and you will be able to see for yourself on the website just who is a member. Remember, we have just started the effort.

 

This is a fair statement... and ultimately, time will indeed tell.

[divad]

Did the Crippen collection come up in any conversation about pressing and Heritage?

 

Banner, at the Con, I specifically asked Heritage whether any pressing or other work was done to the Crippen collection, and they confirmed that the books were left untouched.

 

Sorry, but . . . what's that saying about a leopard and his spots?

[Rocketeer]

Mark,...didn't you say at the panel that the main emphasis of NOD was education and not pressing?

[THE_BEYONDER]

Mark,...didn't you say at the panel that the main emphasis of NOD was education and not pressing?

 

Under the current climate...I don't see how one could seperate the two. In order for collectors to make informed buying decisions, they would have to have a basic understanding of the practice.

[nearmint]

Brent, Mark, David Armstrong, Arnold T. Blumberg...

 

 

[tth2]

the only thing I'll add is that I wish you had offered some of those thoughts during the actual meeting -- and I say that because I think that it would have offered some balance to the meeting -- because some of the points are very valid (and this is someone who clearly disagrees with the basics of the NOD).

Brian, I was trying to! I was waving my hand in the air trying to get a word in (particularly after Rich said something to the effect of education being important because people who bought $50,000 of stocks without doing research were as stupid as people who bought $50,000 of comics without doing research, which I found to be an incredibly disingenuous comment for the reasons I explain in my post when I analogize to the US securities regulatory regime), but it seemed like Rich Evans, Ed Jaster, Matt Nelson and then Lance Washington, of all people, were too busy saying their piece to let anyone else get in a comment.

 

I will add though that this is the first truly positive spin I've seen on the meeting... but -- I don't think the education outlook is a pipe dream. Ultimately, getting people to agree to be bound to the decision of a few people in an organization that wants such a wide net is really practically difficult. If disclosure -- or at least most dealers disclosing -- is truly the main goal -- I think there are other ways to approach it.

As was the case with CGC, ultimately it is the market that will dictate who prevails. If the brave souls who cast their lot with NOD enjoy noticeably better sales than non-NOD sellers, then non-NOD sellers will eventually feel compelled to sign on to NOD, in the same way that many CGC skeptics ultimately decided to sell slabbed books.

 

To be honest, I don't think there will be nearly as dramatic a price difference for NOD sellers as there was for CGC'd books. Virtually everyone cares whether a book is graded accurately, hence CGC became a success. Depending on who you talk to, 1% to 51% of collectors care whether pressing has been disclosed. I don't think collectors will pay big premiums because a book is being sold by a NOD seller vs. a non-NOD seller. Which was one reason I thought the dealers' comments about coercion and McCarthyism were way over the top.

[tth2]

I think the whole education thing is a hopelessly idealistic and ineffective mirage. Of course, in principle, education is a good and desirable thing, but it's simply way too ephemeral to have any value and have any real impact on cleaning up the mess that we currently have.

 

You are probably right, but the way this organization is set up now isn't any better. It basically offers dealers a very real and immediate detriment (disclosure of pressed books) in exchange for a flimsy and ephemeral future benefit (increased trust between the collector and dealer). Not only that, they have to PAY for the privilege. I would be absolutely floored if a decent number of dealers signed up for this thing, and without that it's just a paper tiger.

 

If you want a thing like this to work there are only two ways to go about it. The positives for the dealers have to outweight the negatives, or you have to force them to comply. Anything in between just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and will ultimately be ineffectual.

Perhaps it will fail, but I always have more respect if someone tries something and fails then if no one tried at all. For all his faults, at least Mark has "gotten off the nail" and is trying to do SOMETHING constructive. It beats the hell out of further verbal mast*rbation.

[tth2]

Arnold T. Blumberg...

I'm still wondering why Arnold was even on the panel. It was great to hear about the Geppi museum, but it seemed to have absolutely no relevance to the topics being discussed and I'm not sure Arnold said more than 2 words after his initial spiel.

[drbanner]

Did the Crippen collection come up in any conversation about pressing and Heritage?

 

Banner, at the Con, I specifically asked Heritage whether any pressing or other work was done to the Crippen collection, and they confirmed that the books were left untouched.

 

Good news...thanks for the confirmation!