Anyone attend the NOD panel at SD Con?

[october]

I think the whole education thing is a hopelessly idealistic and ineffective mirage. Of course, in principle, education is a good and desirable thing, but it's simply way too ephemeral to have any value and have any real impact on cleaning up the mess that we currently have.

 

You are probably right, but the way this organization is set up now isn't any better. It basically offers dealers a very real and immediate detriment (disclosure of pressed books) in exchange for a flimsy and ephemeral future benefit (increased trust between the collector and dealer). Not only that, they have to PAY for the privilege. I would be absolutely floored if a decent number of dealers signed up for this thing, and without that it's just a paper tiger.

 

If you want a thing like this to work there are only two ways to go about it. The positives for the dealers have to outweight the negatives, or you have to force them to comply. Anything in between just doesn't make a whole lot of sense and will ultimately be ineffectual.

Perhaps it will fail, but I always have more respect if someone tries something and fails then if no one tried at all. For all his faults, at least Mark has "gotten off the nail" and is trying to do SOMETHING constructive. It beats the hell out of further verbal mast*rbation.

 

No argument here, I just wish it was structured in a way more palatable for dealers.

[skybolt]

the only thing I'll add is that I wish you had offered some of those thoughts during the actual meeting -- and I say that because I think that it would have offered some balance to the meeting -- because some of the points are very valid (and this is someone who clearly disagrees with the basics of the NOD).

Brian, I was trying to! I was waving my hand in the air trying to get a word in (particularly after Rich said something to the effect of education being important because people who bought $50,000 of stocks without doing research were as stupid as people who bought $50,000 of comics without doing research, which I found to be an incredibly disingenuous comment for the reasons I explain in my post when I analogize to the US securities regulatory regime), but it seemed like Rich Evans, Ed Jaster, Matt Nelson and then Lance Washington, of all people, were too busy saying their piece to let anyone else get in a comment.

 

I will add though that this is the first truly positive spin I've seen on the meeting... but -- I don't think the education outlook is a pipe dream. Ultimately, getting people to agree to be bound to the decision of a few people in an organization that wants such a wide net is really practically difficult. If disclosure -- or at least most dealers disclosing -- is truly the main goal -- I think there are other ways to approach it.

As was the case with CGC, ultimately it is the market that will dictate who prevails. If the brave souls who cast their lot with NOD enjoy noticeably better sales than non-NOD sellers, then non-NOD sellers will eventually feel compelled to sign on to NOD, in the same way that many CGC skeptics ultimately decided to sell slabbed books.

 

To be honest, I don't think there will be nearly as dramatic a price difference for NOD sellers as there was for CGC'd books. Virtually everyone cares whether a book is graded accurately, hence CGC became a success. Depending on who you talk to, 1% to 51% of collectors care whether pressing has been disclosed. I don't think collectors will pay big premiums because a book is being sold by a NOD seller vs. a non-NOD seller. Which was one reason I thought the dealers' comments about coercion and McCarthyism were way over the top.

 

As usual, very good points tth2.

 

I do believe that the perception of being a NOD member over a non-member would potentially help the seller. If enough people are educated to know that pressing is at minimal a minor form of restoration (even if that number is less than 25%), then it could have an impact on sale prices. At the same time, those same potential buyers should be educated further about the history of our hobby as it relates to pressing . For instance, just because I'm against pressing, never have and never will submit a book for pressing, will disclose who I purchased the book from, etc., it doesn't mean that the books I own haven't been pressed at one point or another. I may have purchased my books from a NOD member after they signed the form, but who knows where they got the book from. Perhaps the book was pressed 2, 3 or maybe even 20 years ago.

 

Another concern I have is if a NOD dealer purchases books from a non member that doesn't disclose anything, and passes the books off as press free. I just want to make sure that the consumer is educated enough to not pay 2 or 3 times more for a supposed non-pressed book since no one can really guarantee its history. Again, I like the idea of NOD, just as long as people don't think it's full proof.........just like CGC.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Well, I was told that the panel would be focused on "new and forthcoming developments in the comic book community including a special presentation on the forthcoming September grand opening of the Geppi’s Entertainment Museum in Baltimore, Maryland" and that we would discuss how the museum and other developments would help to enhance the hobby and provide new opportunities for enjoying collecting.

 

But sometimes things take their own course.

[esquirecomics]

But let me say this: I had some major dealers and players in the community speak to me privately in SD about the NOD applauding its existence and indicating they are very interested in joining. Some of them were at the panel discussion but chose not to speak up, for a variety of reasons. At the end of the day, time will tell how the membership grows and you will be able to see for yourself on the website just who is a member. Remember, we have just started the effort.

 

This is a fair statement... and ultimately, time will indeed tell.

 

Thanks Brian, and thanks for attending the panel and contributing to the discussion.

[esquirecomics]

Mark,...didn't you say at the panel that the main emphasis of NOD was education and not pressing?

 

One of the primary objectives of the NOD is definitely education. An educated buyer is an informed buyer and, at the end of the day, usually a content buyer. The NOD official statement that will be issued later will address this further. Pressing is just one of many "things" (for lack of a better word that will not be controversial) that members agree to disclose.

[esquirecomics]

 

Geez, I always hate photos of me. Somehow I am always in the middle of talking! Now that I think of it, that started when I became a lawyer.

[esquirecomics]

Well, I was told that the panel would be focused on "new and forthcoming developments in the comic book community including a special presentation on the forthcoming September grand opening of the Geppi’s Entertainment Museum in Baltimore, Maryland" and that we would discuss how the museum and other developments would help to enhance the hobby and provide new opportunities for enjoying collecting.

 

But sometimes things take their own course.

 

Yes indeed. The panel title and intent behind it was obviously much, much broader. I wanted to hear much more about the Museum and what lies ahead for the AACC. Unfortunately, no one asked any questions about either. It was just about the NOD.

 

Sorry Arnold. But I personally very much appreciated your participation. You have my gratitude.

[nearmint]

 

Geez, I always hate photos of me. Somehow I am always in the middle of talking! Now that I think of it, that started when I became a lawyer.

 

Methinks it started long before that.

[comic_lot]

Arnold -

 

When is the revised edition of the Grading Guide due out? Do you cover the issue of pressing in any detail?

[esquirecomics]

 

Geez, I always hate photos of me. Somehow I am always in the middle of talking! Now that I think of it, that started when I became a lawyer.

 

Methinks it started long before that.

 

Shhh. Ok, yea, probably true.

 

Sorry we didn't get to chat Jeff. I didn't even realize at the time you were taking pictures that that was you!

[esquirecomics]

the only thing I'll add is that I wish you had offered some of those thoughts during the actual meeting -- and I say that because I think that it would have offered some balance to the meeting -- because some of the points are very valid (and this is someone who clearly disagrees with the basics of the NOD).

Brian, I was trying to! I was waving my hand in the air trying to get a word in (particularly after Rich said something to the effect of education being important because people who bought $50,000 of stocks without doing research were as stupid as people who bought $50,000 of comics without doing research, which I found to be an incredibly disingenuous comment for the reasons I explain in my post when I analogize to the US securities regulatory regime), but it seemed like Rich Evans, Ed Jaster, Matt Nelson and then Lance Washington, of all people, were too busy saying their piece to let anyone else get in a comment.

 

I tried, I tried. Everytime I pointed to you to speak someone else chimed in. And finally when there was a lull I went to you but you were too fed up with it and waved me off.

 

It was great that you even attended, and I'm glad we got to talk during the show and the dinner. Next time we need to drag Vic to the Con!

[nearmint]

 

Geez, I always hate photos of me. Somehow I am always in the middle of talking! Now that I think of it, that started when I became a lawyer.

 

Methinks it started long before that.

 

Shhh. Ok, yea, probably true.

 

Sorry we didn't get to chat Jeff. I didn't even realize at the time you were taking pictures that that was you!

 

No problem. You attempted to get ahold of me, but I go to SD as much for the movie panels as the comics, and I was firmly entrenched in Hall H for most of Friday and Saturday.

 

On the other hand, I WAS the only guy who took pictures at the panel last year and posted them on the boards. You DID see me at last year's dinner. I WAS wearing a name tag, and I DID post my picture on the boards the day before the con so people would recognize me. Then there was that HUGE NEON SIGN ABOVE MY HEAD WITH MY NAME ON IT.

 

Just kidding. Brent had no idea who I was either. Or Fookiller sitting right behind me. I may have been the most anonymous person in the room.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

Sorry Arnold. But I personally very much appreciated your participation. You have my gratitude.

 

No worries Mark, I was very happy to take part however briefly. It was my pleasure.

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

It should be out in August. There might be a slight delay as it's going through Random House.

 

As for content, many of the "pressing" issues facing collectors today are covered in the book, though of course with some of them, we can only point out the issue rather than offer a consensus. I can't go into details ahead of publication, obviously, but I think most readers will appreciate the material once they see it.

[comic_lot]

Thanks Arnold. I'm looking forward to reading it.

[MCMiles]

As was the case with CGC, ultimately it is the market that will dictate who prevails. If the brave souls who cast their lot with NOD enjoy noticeably better sales than non-NOD sellers, then non-NOD sellers will eventually feel compelled to sign on to NOD, in the same way that many CGC skeptics ultimately decided to sell slabbed books.

 

To be honest, I don't think there will be nearly as dramatic a price difference for NOD sellers as there was for CGC'd books. Virtually everyone cares whether a book is graded accurately, hence CGC became a success. Depending on who you talk to, 1% to 51% of collectors care whether pressing has been disclosed. I don't think collectors will pay big premiums because a book is being sold by a NOD seller vs. a non-NOD seller. Which was one reason I thought the dealers' comments about coercion and McCarthyism were way over the top.

 

I agree with this 100%.

 

I don't see the dealers getting on board. They will always realize more profit out of two tenths of a grade than they will a NOD label.

 

Also, is the fact that a dealer has paid his dues to the NOD and displays the logo on his web site really going to mean anything to the collector or investor? I don't think so. Just because a dealer joins the NOD does not mean he knows the history of every book in his inventory all of the way back. A dealers membership does not mean he is going to disclose the information, especially if not asked. Is there going to be a public outing of a member dealer that sells a comic without disclosure which is later determined to have been worked on? If so, this enough to scare honest dealers from being a member. There might be more dishonest dealers trying to join for the sake of aquiring some sort of cloak of honesty, and less honest dealers signing up out of fear of being outed for not knowing.

 

I don't think education is a pipe dream. Any serious collector (and I don't mean collectors that spend a ton of money or only collect ultra high end books) reads just about every publication about comic collecting that comes out. Scoop articles and disscussion boards have educated hundreds if not thousands already. I belive some disagree that the comic book community is uneducated, or capable of educating themselves, because of their disbelief that NDP is inconsequential to the majority.

 

There has been more effort put in to posting on these boards and organizing the NOD than it would take to write an in depth book about comic collecting. A book aimed at educationg anyone interested in the hobbyin all areas of the hobby. Hell, some one could make a ton of money. Does anyone know Gemstones phone number?

[ArnoldTBlumberg]

*whistles nonchalantly as an author who would be happy to write such a book*

 

Not that I know anything, just that it sounds like a really cool idea.

[MCMiles]

Send me a kickback.

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

A dealers membership does not mean he is going to disclose the information, especially if not asked.

 

That's the whole idea of being part of NOD, you actively disclose ALL pertinent information upfront as a dealer-member of NOD, and there would be consequences if you didn't.

 

This really comes down to two groups: those who advocate honesty and self-policing for the good of the hobby and those who see NOD's ideals as either futile, unenforceable, or both.

[MCMiles]

I know what the idea is. There are consequences for robbing a bank also. Does not mean people don't continue to do it. Those consequences you speak of are also what will scare other honest dealers away from joining. People have also been wrongfully accused of robbing banks.

 

I am also sure some dealers with no intention of providing 100% disclosure will find ways to become members. Especially smaller ones that fly under the radar and don't get as much attention as Classics Incorporated or heritage.