How do you determine page quality?

[fantastic_four]

In the 1992 Overstreet Grading Guide, a little tool called the "OWL" card became what was probably the first organized attempt to categorize and standardize the grading of comic book page whiteness. In the new 2002 OGG, there is a passage on page 89 which reads as follows:

Please note...that the OWL card--while still available and used by many comic book enthusiasts--is no longer strictly up to date with the current grading standards and 10 point system utilized in this second edition of the Grading Guide.

Later in the 2002 OGG on page 128, there is another passage related to page quality (apologies to Arnold and Gemstone if I'm quoting too much good stuff; I'll remove it if they want):

While we continue to use familiar terminology in describing interior paper quality, such as "white," "off-white," "cream," and so on, we must qualify our use of the word "white." Due to the wildly diverse paper stocks employed by the various comic book publishers over the years, the highest possible color quality of the paper in a given comic book may differ markedly from that of another comic from another company or era. Therefore, we use the term "white" loosely in all cases to refer to the highest quality color and freshness of the paper stock used in any given comic regardless of the actual color that may be evident. Subsequent descriptions of "off-white," "cream," "tan" and others should then be interpreted in relation to the "white" starting point of any given book.

This second passage is a great explanation for why the OWL card is problematic. You'd need a separate OWL card for the different paper stocks used over the years. Anybody feel like creating these OWL cards for the type of comics they collect? It would probably help us all a lot!!!Anyway, I bet most of us could use some help and collaboration to figure out how to consistently judge a comic's page whiteness. Since I mostly collect Silver Marvels, I've been trying to figure out how to judge page quality for the last few years. For every comic I grade, I try to assign a page whiteness to it. I haven't broken open many slabs to figure out what CGC means by their page quality descriptions, but I have looked at a lot of comics and compared them to each other. This type of empirical page whiteness study is extremely useful and it's probably the way that the CGC graders have come up with their own guidelines, although something written down and agreed upon by a bunch of collectors is always preferrable to individual research.So, my question is--how do you guys assign page whiteness? Below are four pictures of various X-Men comics I own that exhibit my best guess as to what is meant by the grading terms from "white" to "cream to off-white." If you guys disagree, please post reasons why. I may scan more interiors to get a wider sampling if you guys think it's of use. I don't think I own any books with tan, brown, or brittle pages, so if you guys could scan samples of those, I'd appreciate it greatly!

White   Click for full page image

Off-White to White   Click for full page image

Off-White   Click for full page image

Cream to Off-White   Click for full page image

[blowout]

As you have already outlined the OWL card is not really that helpful due to the different paper stocks used. The only effective way I have found to determine page quality is to compare like books from the same era/publisher.

Your examples look about right for SA books although I have seen even whiter looking pages than the example you have for WHITE.

I am considering making up my own OWL type guide for use at cons. This would involve picking up cheap SA books with all the page quality variations and taking the centre pages out to make up a sample book.

Using actual pages from the actual books is the only way I can see to get the relevant comparison.

[JulianXJ]

I have been organizing my collection onto Nostomania (not sure if it is ok to plug them here but I got the link to CGC from there) . I thought that I had this pretty well figured out as well. It was obvious from going through many of my books that "white" was not always "white" due to paper stock and so on. However, I have been buying some much desired back issues off eBay and recieved a great deal on an X-Men 141 that had never been read, bagged imediately after original purchase and sold to me as is. The pages are so white you can read the thing in the dark, and it totally messed up my personal grading system for page color. I am not sure what others have for "white" pages around 1980 issues of Marvels, but I fear I may need to go back and re-grade half my collection. How much weight should I place on page quality in an overall grade anyway? I don't have a grading guide, but what I have seen seems to place the greates emphasis on cover and spine quality. Though reading the synopsis of the grading guide says to go from the inside out. I would love some help with this and I apreciate the FF starting this post cause I was to CS to start one myself

 

Thanks,

JulianXJ

[dad-migration]

I have been buying some much desired back issues off eBay and recieved a great deal on an X-Men 141 that had never been read, bagged imediately after original purchase and sold to me as is. The pages are so white you can read the thing in the dark, and it totally messed up my personal grading system for page color. I

Thanks,

JulianXJ

 

I bought books from different publishers (Marvel, DC, etc) off the rack consistently through the 1960s, and do not recall ANY significant difference in page whiteness.

 

The above quote illustrates what I believe. Many of today's collectors have never seen silver-age books new, and therefore have no idea what they are supposed to look like. If you want to see what the pages on a new silver-age book looked like, just look at the morning newspaper. Its WHITE.

 

Today, what passes for white is really off-white, in some cases significantly so. The vast majority of silver-age books were not stored properly and have undergone a marked degree of detioration. The fact that these books can receive high grades is a reflection of the inadequacy of the current grading system.

 

I will have more to say on this subject later.....

[Aman619]

This is a great idea and discussion (once it gets started...)

As for your scans, I think your cream is still only off-white. Im sure youve seen much darker pages---those would be 'cream' IMO. And the really brownish pages are 'tanned'.

Unless the scans are just too bright on my screen.

[blowout]

I think your cream is still only off-white. Im sure youve seen much darker pages---those would be 'cream' IMO.

 

aman, I take it by this response that you haven't seen too many CGC graded books. In my experience cream pages are VERY close in shade to off-white and FF's scans look about right to me.

[fantastic_four]

This is a great idea and discussion (once it gets started...)

As for your scans, I think your cream is still only off-white. Im sure youve seen much darker pages---those would be 'cream' IMO. And the really brownish pages are 'tanned'.

Unless the scans are just too bright on my screen.

 

It very well could be a difference in your video card/monitor. I just read this post for the first time on my monitor at work, and I can barely see a difference in the four examples above, but on my monitor at home, there's definitely a difference. I was worried about how well you could see page whiteness when I was doing my scanning, but once I got them in and compared them, I was pleased at how different they looked...but I forgot for a while how widely the color settings on displays can vary.

[Elvis]

It very well could be a difference in your video card/monitor. I just read this post for the first time on my monitor at work, and I can barely see a difference in the four examples above, but on my monitor at home, there's definitely a difference. I was worried about how well you could see page whiteness when I was doing my scanning, but once I got them in and compared them, I was pleased at how different they looked...but I forgot for a while how widely the color settings on displays can vary.

 

FF: I dont think there is that much of a difference between the examples above because he is taking them from the top of the grading scale. He goes from "white" to "cream to off-white". His example does not span the entire horizon of the grade scale (White to brittle). Just like there is not a hugely noticable difference between NM+ and VF. The difference is there but not immediatly noticable until closer inspection. Although, it really may just be your work moniter. There is no substituting for viewing the real thing...

 

IMHO

 

 

[fantastic_four]

His example does not span the entire horizon of the grade scale...Although, it really may just be your work moniter

 

Errr...heh...it really is my work monitor because the "he" you're referring to is "me." I made the original post, and they look more markedly different on my home monitor than my work monitor.

[Aman619]

blowout--- thats correct, sort of. Ive seen and own CGC books, but never sent one for grading, so I have never seen the pages BEFORE slabbing -- and then of course its too late. But it must be my monitor anyway - - cause the cream on my screen is very light, and cream pages are light sepis, not "off off-white"

[blowout]

But it must be my monitor anyway - - cause the cream on my screen is very light, and cream pages are light sepis, not "off off-white"

 

Yes, it is very tough to determine on a computer screen. As you also said the CGC slab can also make it near impossible to judge page quality.