So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[ciorac]

what?

 

i do not hate Lee, Kane, and any other comics creator

- you are placing words here i have not written

- shame on you for exaggerating my words

 

I have not written here that either Kane or Lee had nothing to do with the comics business and/or co-creating best selling comics scenarios but they had a lot less to do with the creations than they have stated in comicons and/or in print. That is a simple fact, no trash

 

i have been working on an impartial history of the comics business

 

i stress impartial

 

Most assuredly he was "an ambassador and spokesperson for comics in general," but Lee fronted for the owner of Marvel, claiming more than he created. Ownership of copyright was all about money, promises of royalties were made which never followed thru on.

 

It is a fact of history that Goodman also made promises of royalties on the sales of Captain America beginning in 1941 - also never followed thru on. That is why Simon & Kirby left first for MLJ and then soon thereafter went on to DC National where they were paid royalties beyond the simple page rate.

 

History repeated itself in the 1960s

 

history is history - and it has warts

 

"Now Stan Lee dialoguing, i will agree with you and every one else 100% that was Stan Lee driven - but not the creating of the story which takes a bunch of story telling art panels to be any good to begin with."

 

 

Ok, so I must have mis-read what you said above. I thought that when you said Stan Lee played no part in "creating the story", you were stripping him of credit unjustly. My mistake, I typically think that when someone says another person played no part in creating something that's what they mean...they played no part in it.

 

Impartially speaking, that is not a true statement. Stan Lee did play a part in story writing at Marvel, a much bigger part than you paint, and in all probability a much smaller part than he paints. But he did write many, many stories for Marvel. Plain and simple truth.

 

An honestly, saying things like "fronting for Unca Martin", doesn't sound very impartial to me. I think even a layperson could read the bias in that statement.

[thedarkknight]

I thought this was about Bob Kane?

[ciorac]

I thought this was about Bob Kane?

 

Ostensibly it was.....

[HouseofComics.Com]

Very interesting tidbit. I too have sort of assumed over the years that Kane was a very astute businessman because of his deal with DC, but what you say about his father's involvement makes sense given his age (early 20's?) at the time.

 

One also has to note that Kane was approaching comics from the comic STRIP point of view where the dream was to create a hit and then live off your ghosts forever. But yes, I've read that his father really went over that first contract in detail which made all the difference.

 

Marc

[BLBcomics-migration]

what?

 

i do not hate Lee, Kane, and any other comics creator

- you are placing words here i have not written

- shame on you for exaggerating my words

 

I have not written here that either Kane or Lee had nothing to do with the comics business and/or co-creating best selling comics scenarios but they had a lot less to do with the creations than they have stated in comicons and/or in print. That is a simple fact, no trash

 

i have been working on an impartial history of the comics business

 

i stress impartial

 

Most assuredly he was "an ambassador and spokesperson for comics in general," but Lee fronted for the owner of Marvel, claiming more than he created. Ownership of copyright was all about money, promises of royalties were made which never followed thru on.

 

It is a fact of history that Goodman also made promises of royalties on the sales of Captain America beginning in 1941 - also never followed thru on. That is why Simon & Kirby left first for MLJ and then soon thereafter went on to DC National where they were paid royalties beyond the simple page rate.

 

History repeated itself in the 1960s

 

history is history - and it has warts

 

"Now Stan Lee dialoguing, i will agree with you and every one else 100% that was Stan Lee driven - but not the creating of the story which takes a bunch of story telling art panels to be any good to begin with."

 

 

Ok, so I must have mis-read what you said above. I thought that when you said Stan Lee played no part in "creating the story", you were stripping him of credit unjustly. My mistake, I typically think that when someone says another person played no part in creating something that's what they mean...they played no part in it.

 

Impartially speaking, that is not a true statement. Stan Lee did play a part in story writing at Marvel, a much bigger part than you paint, and in all probability a much smaller part than he paints. But he did write many, many stories for Marvel. Plain and simple truth.

 

An honestly, saying things like "fronting for Unca Martin", doesn't sound very impartial to me. I think even a layperson could read the bias in that statement.

 

Yes, i believe you misinterpreted what i meant - or maybe i just did not elucidate clearly enough.

 

Yes, stan wrote - but the way Marvel comics were created back then by at least Kirby, with the panel continuity all drawn out, the story is there already, sans word smith concepts, which are important, but we were discussing first & foremost the invention of the Marvel Universe, the characters & their background concepts - not what the dialoguing would turn out to be

 

And "fronting for unca Martin" is a figure of speech where i inhabit the planet, blood being thicker than water, otherwise Stan would not have stalked S&K after they left Marvel's offices and went elsewhere to work on DC stuff back in 1941 - and that is just for starters

 

In the 1960s history kind of repeats itself, royalties promised when the initial Marvel Universe is created beginning in 1961 when Marvel is close to bankrupt, the doors were closing soon,

 

A proper share of the good fortune not delivered, Marvel ends up being sold by Goodman in 1968, Stan is there, reaps rewards,

 

 

Kirby gets nothing (Ditko was already gone for a couple years), finally is fed up, moves west, Carmine comes out to snag his old boss, we all know most of this drill,

 

Same basic scenario goes for Bob Kane and his father - Bill Finger got left out in the initial negotiations, before any one knew Batman would take off like it did

 

Kane had ample opportunity to fix such a wrong, to the man, his high school "buddy", who got the concepts which we all love these days, not recognized as such by Kane till he was close to his death bed, his "friend" having passed away a couple decades earlier, broke, both financially and of heart

 

Did Bob Kane have a hand in creating Batman - of course he did

 

Did Stan The Man have a hand in creating the Marvel Universe - of course he did

 

Both, though, played a much smaller role, albeit important, to be sure, in the "creation"

 

I think that Finger and Kirby both played a more important role - promises were made "in the dark" not delivered, is all

[BLBcomics-migration]

Very interesting tidbit. I too have sort of assumed over the years that Kane was a very astute businessman because of his deal with DC, but what you say about his father's involvement makes sense given his age (early 20's?) at the time.

 

One also has to note that Kane was approaching comics from the comic STRIP point of view where the dream was to create a hit and then live off your ghosts forever. But yes, I've read that his father really went over that first contract in detail which made all the difference.

 

Marc

 

I agree -all comic book creators back then wanted to break into the big time, the news paper comic strip was where the money and true acclaim resided

 

Having ghosts once successful is OK, a common practice, but my feelings are Bill Finger created so many of the concepts which we recognize as being neat as far as Batman goes

 

- and even though Kane and his father got "the deal" , Kane should have cut in Finger ala Siegel & Shuster shared in the spoils of Superman as co-equals re Superman - until they got too greedy and tried an end run to shut out the publisher

[thedarkknight]

Could you two stop bickering?

[ciorac]

what?

 

i do not hate Lee, Kane, and any other comics creator

- you are placing words here i have not written

- shame on you for exaggerating my words

 

I have not written here that either Kane or Lee had nothing to do with the comics business and/or co-creating best selling comics scenarios but they had a lot less to do with the creations than they have stated in comicons and/or in print. That is a simple fact, no trash

 

i have been working on an impartial history of the comics business

 

i stress impartial

 

Most assuredly he was "an ambassador and spokesperson for comics in general," but Lee fronted for the owner of Marvel, claiming more than he created. Ownership of copyright was all about money, promises of royalties were made which never followed thru on.

 

It is a fact of history that Goodman also made promises of royalties on the sales of Captain America beginning in 1941 - also never followed thru on. That is why Simon & Kirby left first for MLJ and then soon thereafter went on to DC National where they were paid royalties beyond the simple page rate.

 

History repeated itself in the 1960s

 

history is history - and it has warts

 

"Now Stan Lee dialoguing, i will agree with you and every one else 100% that was Stan Lee driven - but not the creating of the story which takes a bunch of story telling art panels to be any good to begin with."

 

 

Ok, so I must have mis-read what you said above. I thought that when you said Stan Lee played no part in "creating the story", you were stripping him of credit unjustly. My mistake, I typically think that when someone says another person played no part in creating something that's what they mean...they played no part in it.

 

Impartially speaking, that is not a true statement. Stan Lee did play a part in story writing at Marvel, a much bigger part than you paint, and in all probability a much smaller part than he paints. But he did write many, many stories for Marvel. Plain and simple truth.

 

An honestly, saying things like "fronting for Unca Martin", doesn't sound very impartial to me. I think even a layperson could read the bias in that statement.

 

Yes, i believe you misinterpreted what i meant - or maybe i just did not elucidate clearly enough.

 

Yes, stan wrote - but the way Marvel comics were created back then by at least Kirby, with the panel continuity all drawn out, the story is there already, sans word smith concepts, which are important, but we were discussing first & foremost the invention of the Marvel Universe, the characters & their background concepts - not what the dialoguing would turn out to be

 

And "fronting for unca Martin" is a figure of speech where i inhabit the planet, blood being thicker than water, otherwise Stan would not have stalked S&K after they left Marvel's offices and went elsewhere to work on DC stuff back in 1941 - and that is just for starters

 

In the 1960s history kind of repeats itself, royalties promised when the initial Marvel Universe is created beginning in 1961 when Marvel is close to bankrupt, the doors were closing soon,

 

A proper share of the good fortune not delivered, Marvel ends up being sold by Goodman in 1968, Stan is there, reaps rewards,

 

 

Kirby gets nothing (Ditko was already gone for a couple years), finally is fed up, moves west, Carmine comes out to snag his old boss, we all know most of this drill,

 

Same basic scenario goes for Bob Kane and his father - Bill Finger got left out in the initial negotiations, before any one knew Batman would take off like it did

 

Kane had ample opportunity to fix such a wrong, to the man, his high school "buddy", who got the concepts which we all love these days, not recognized as such by Kane till he was close to his death bed, his "friend" having passed away a couple decades earlier, broke, both financially and of heart

 

Did Bob Kane have a hand in creating Batman - of course he did

 

Did Stan The Man have a hand in creating the Marvel Universe - of course he did

 

Both, though, played a much smaller role, albeit important, to be sure, in the "creation"

 

I think that Finger and Kirby both played a more important role - promises were made "in the dark" not delivered, is all

 

At last we agree!

[ciorac]

Could you two stop bickering?

 

It is a debate not bickering. Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the concept?

 

Oh, and see the post immediately above this one. Debate has ended with agreement. It was fun!

[BLBcomics-migration]

 

At last we agree!

 

we always "agreed" - i think you were misreading what i wrote, causing more effort than speech in person

 

email necessitates writing more than what can be interpreted easily

 

and my history musings remain impartial

[ciorac]

 

At last we agree!

 

we always "agreed" - i think you were misreading what i wrote, causing more effort than speech in person

 

email necessitates writing more than what can be interpreted easily

 

and my history musings remain impartial

 

Probably right Bobby. I am a bit partial to Kane and Lee though, so I defend what little honor they have with vigor!

[Forbush-Man]

It is a debate not bickering.

 

 

It's more like a Monty Python skit.

 

 

 

[Forbush-Man]

Yes, stan wrote - but the way Marvel comics were created back then by at least Kirby, with the panel continuity all drawn out, the story is there already, sans word smith concepts,

 

Ditko, at least toward the end of his Spider-Man run, was turning in stories in this same manner. I don't believe he wanted any of Stan's input at the time. I think he was already prepared for the leave that was soon to come.

[Norrin_Radd]

It is a debate not bickering.

 

 

It's more like a Monty Python skit.

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Yes, stan wrote - but the way Marvel comics were created back then by at least Kirby, with the panel continuity all drawn out, the story is there already, sans word smith concepts,

 

Ditko, at least toward the end of his Spider-Man run, was turning in stories in this same manner. I don't believe he wanted any of Stan's input at the time. I think he was already prepared for the leave that was soon to come.

 

I only talked with Ditko once back in 1969, in a moment of lucidity he told us that he left because of promised royalties, again, back when Marvel in 1961-62 was borderline bankrupt, one foot was in the grave, promises given, soon thereafter lies were told, dreams shattered

 

his Ann Rand (soon to be played by Angelina Jolie) philosophy convoluted his outlook on how he reacted to losing out on what became a billion dollar property

 

and Stan jumped in when Ditko popped his cork and split over to Charlton, then DC, but he had to slow down a lot in 1968 cuz he had a re-bout with Tuberculosis, something he came down with for sure circa 1958. His recurring TB has played a role in his life

 

Stan did a sea lane change in fact, claiming major most of credit for creating most everything in the marvel Universe until the 1970s when he went Hollywood. Fronting for his Uncle MG, Stan's involvement in the creation myth took on the PT Barnum-;like cosmic awareness he injected into the comics, dislogue word smith he grew to be

 

Ditko stayed far away from Stan in his final time during that tenure time he spent injecting into the persona of Peter Parker, the buy who became Spiderman.

 

Julie Schwartz told me a tale the night before he went under the knife for skin cancer back circa 1997, when we were working on the Comic Book Marketplace #50 article, "Big Bang Theory of Comic Book History" that in the final months of Jerry Siegel still being under the ten year contract, Mort Weisinger had Jerry stopped by security guards and frisked for a gun, as Jerry kept muttering "I am going to kill that guy" cuz Mort was the front man disavowing the extent of Jerry's creationism re Superman

 

What Stan did was not different, ultimately - he did his boss's dirty work, got paid well to keep the talent silent, mollified, as a daddy would do for his "boys", a common publisher ploy.

 

Business is business and the man who dies with the most toys wins

 

We just could have asked multi-billionaire Jack Liebowitz, who passed on a couple years back after making 100 years old. As a minority partner to Harry Donenfeld, he wrangled control of majority thru manipulations screwing over Harry's kids, Irwin and Sonia. The full story will be in my comics business history book i am working on.

 

Business is business - and the last one left standing gets to have the last laugh - at least that is how the comic book story would have went, i want to think

 

does any of this make sense?

 

this is some of the stuff i have learned over the decades - people so much want to think the funny books we all grew up on and love so much took care of everyone in one happy family

 

It was a dog eat dog world, the distribution companies which entered the competition with near-monopoly American News Company beginning when the Volstad Act was overturned, booze becoming legal by Jan 1933, and the bootleggers had all kinds of idle trucks to haul product

 

This underside is the money from which the nascent comic magazine business was spawned, that sort of mentality, and this is how so many of the creators were treated - and ZAP #1 changed all that with royalties paid comic books coming out of San Francisco.

 

Here is a hypothetical: if Stan is/was such a creator, where are all his creations from the 1940s and 1950s, and where are all his creations after Kirby split town, moving out west?

 

Please answer this one for me, so i can understand

[Forbush-Man]

Here is a hypothetical: if Stan is/was such a creator, where are all his creations from the 1940s and 1950s, and where are all his creations after Kirby split town, moving out west?

 

Please answer this one for me, so i can understand

 

I am in agreement with you. I have given Ditko & Kirby the lion share for the creation. I even mentioned further back in this thread that Stan Lee had the period from around 1947-1958/59 and that things didn't start popping until Ditko & Kirby climed on board. Stan Lee was the wordsmith, the vast majority of the creation was Kirby (with a little Simon on the Silver Spider) & Ditko. Stan may have thought to make the FF costumeless (or maybe that was Kirby's carry over of the Challengers of the Unknown) and likely (?) Stan's idea to make Spider-Man an angst-ridden teenager. The fragile hero is Stan Lee, but the creation of the Marvel Universe (for the most part) was kirby & Ditko.

 

You can also look at everything Stan has done post Marvel and see his influence is weak. His re-tooling of the DC major characters........and Stripperella........

[ciorac]

It is a debate not bickering.

 

 

It's more like a Monty Python skit.

 

 

 

 

Thanks I always loved Monty Python.

 

And now for something completely different....

 

[Aman619]

"creation" is a funny word. It means many things to different people. Id say Stan DID create the Marvel Universe. The Marvel wordl where all these heroes and villains lived and interacted. The Marvel Universe did NOT create superheroes. They already existed. And all the early Marvel superheroes were retreads of previously published superheroes, anyway. Torch, Reed, invisible, namor, Cap, etc

 

What was NEW, What was CREATED, by Stan, was the Marvel Universe, where they all co-existed in NYC, and had personal problems, and didnt always win, and heroes fought and distrusted each other! The Mighty Marvel Age of comics was NOT a success because of the costumes, powers, villains or secret identites of the characters, It was due to Stan's up-til-then UNIQUE take on the long ago created "superhero comicbook' genre. He turned it on its head,.. So many people like to dismiss his dialogue as a minor part of the whole! Juts imagine a lesser writer telling these same stories. oy!

 

THAT was the only thing 'created at Marvel in the 60s. And it was STAN LEE who mastermined it all, handing out assignments to artists who he trusted to meet deadlines and fill in the blanks of the individual issues. Lesser talents than Kirby Ditko etc would have turned in lifeless drek, so of course they contributed mightily by doing their part successfully.

 

Does anyone really think that the Marvel books would have been more than a flash in the pan if Stan werent at the top pulling the strings?

[tth2]

Here is a hypothetical: if Stan is/was such a creator, where are all his creations from the 1940s and 1950s, and where are all his creations after Kirby split town, moving out west?

In the early 1940s, Stan Lee was a teen-ager still. Wasn't he just 17 when he started at Timely?

 

In the post-WW II era until Showcase #4, he had as many superhero creations as anyone else, which was ZERO.

[ciorac]

"creation" is a funny word. It means many things to different people. Id say Stan DID create the Marvel Universe. The Marvel wordl where all these heroes and villains lived and interacted. The Marvel Universe did NOT create superheroes. They already existed. And all the early Marvel superheroes were retreads of previously published superheroes, anyway. Torch, Reed, invisible, namor, Cap, etc

 

What was NEW, What was CREATED, by Stan, was the Marvel Universe, where they all co-existed in NYC, and had personal problems, and didnt always win, and heroes fought and distrusted each other! The Mighty Marvel Age of comics was NOT a success because of the costumes, powers, villains or secret identites of the characters, It was due to Stan's up-til-then UNIQUE take on the long ago created "superhero comicbook' genre. He turned it on its head,.. So many people like to dismiss his dialogue as a minor part of the whole! Juts imagine a lesser writer telling these same stories. oy!

 

THAT was the only thing 'created at Marvel in the 60s. And it was STAN LEE who mastermined it all, handing out assignments to artists who he trusted to meet deadlines and fill in the blanks of the individual issues. Lesser talents than Kirby Ditko etc would have turned in lifeless drek, so of course they contributed mightily by doing their part successfully.

 

Does anyone really think that the Marvel books would have been more than a flash in the pan if Stan werent at the top pulling the strings?