So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[lou_fine]

I am not familiar with the details of Lampert's claims, but here is one angle to consider: according to the wikipedia on Marston, the original name of the character he pitched to All-American was "Suprema". The article goes on to say that it was Sheldon Mayer who changed the name to Wonder Woman.

 

That's a long ways from creating "the" Wonder Woman, obviously. But since the name didn't come from Marston, there's just a tiny bit of room there for the possibility that Lampert was involved in brainstorming on a character named Wonder Woman while at All-American.

 

Most of this seems to line up with what Gerard Jones wrote in his book with a slight variation.

 

He states that Marston came up with the name of "Suprema, the Wonder Woman" for his character. This was indeed nixed by Shelly who shortened it by trimming off the "Suprema" bit.

 

I guess the only way to find out is to ask any of the surviving creators before they are all gone. Even then, everybody's memory fades after 60 years or so as these books were just being pushed out to make a living at the time.

[markseifert]

He states that Marston came up with the name of "Suprema, the Wonder Woman" for his character. This was indeed nixed by Shelly who shortened it by trimming off the "Suprema" bit.

 

I guess that makes my theory much less likely. A quick google on "Suprema the Wonder Woman" turns up numerous references to this. I keep meaning to pick up the Gerard Jones book, it sounds incredible.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I am a bit surprised you have so liitle empathy or credence in Lampert's story. It seems like in this case you are willing to accept the publishers story over the little guy. Do those who listened to Marston think he dreamed this up?? Didnt he say he created "Wonder Woman"? not just a female Superman? I know I always found it strange that the inventor of the lie-detector created a superheroine out of the blue? Or was he a famed fiction writer all along?

 

I would have to dig out that issue of CBM and re-read the piece by Will Murray, who is heavily involved with psychic phenomena studies of recovered memories, who got into Lampert's recovered memories

 

I roomed with Will Murray at the White Plains show back in June 2000

 

I have empathy, i listened to Lampert talk about it, my own personal interior jury is still "out" figuring on this one yet.

 

So far i have concentrated trying to figure out other creators claims and counter-claims

 

Like Simon had that CA pic we have all seen, claiming it was the first CA drawing - it was used as the front cover to a Seuling New York Comicon program book cover printed in color back in the early 1970s - i was at that show

 

All of the stuff i have written about here i have heard about for decades.

 

the Lampert scenario re origin of WW i have not as of yet studied too hard, only so many hours in a day, but i will get to it - i do not have an opine or theory either way,though there was something in the Murray piece which struck me as odd, and i would have to re-read it to state what that was

[Point Five]

I keep meaning to pick up the Gerard Jones book, it sounds incredible.

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Don Heck was a great artist? Really? I think not.

 

Yes he could.

 

And I second the motion with Evidence # 2 and #3 -

 

[Aman619]

I am a bit surprised you have so liitle empathy or credence in Lampert's story. It seems like in this case you are willing to accept the publishers story over the little guy. Do those who listened to Marston think he dreamed this up?? Didnt he say he created "Wonder Woman"? not just a female Superman? I know I always found it strange that the inventor of the lie-detector created a superheroine out of the blue? Or was he a famed fiction writer all along?

 

I would have to dig out that issue of CBM and re-read the piece by Will Murray, who is heavily involved with psychic phenomena studies of recovered memories, who got into Lampert's recovered memories

 

I roomed with Will Murray at the White Plains show back in June 2000

 

I have empathy, i listened to Lampert talk about it, my own personal interior jury is still "out" figuring on this one yet.

 

So far i have concentrated trying to figure out other creators claims and counter-claims

 

Like Simon had that CA pic we have all seen, claiming it was the first CA drawing - it was used as the front cover to a Seuling New York Comicon program book cover printed in color back in the early 1970s - i was at that show

 

All of the stuff i have written about here i have heard about for decades.

 

the Lampert scenario re origin of WW i have not as of yet studied too hard, only so many hours in a day, but i will get to it - i do not have an opine or theory either way,though there was something in the Murray piece which struck me as odd, and i would have to re-read it to state what that was

 

I dont know either. Lampert seemed deeply troubled by the whole affair, which means either severe delusion or a large grain of truth. But, who knows? He could be a little man in the great scheme of things clinging to his moment of "near fame"... and blaming others for the turns he took in life. Id have to say that he clearly did NOT create a character and draw her first few adventures, nothing as clear cut as that. And conversations in the offices with the "big guys" about new stuff probably went on all the time.

 

Success has many fathers!

[BLBcomics-migration]

This has been interesting reading, but to me, none of what Bob has mentioned convinces me that Kirby deserves any more credit than he gets by most, and that Stan does, as he should, get the lionshare of credit for Marvel's success in the 60s and modern comics.

 

Jack had some great creative accomplishments, but I again point to his completely unfocussed efforts in the 70s as evidence of failure to be successful. Stan was successful with many different artists. Kirby showed his most enduring success in the SA and I really find his GA work to be kinda of blah.

 

The stories etc are interesting about who said what and what their accounts were... the truth is, we'll never know the whole truth. What I know is that Lee succeeded with Kirby, with Ditko, with Romita, with Buscema, with Don Freakin' Heck. The books sold. The books endure like Spidey because they are still fun reads. The stories are what are compelling and what made them so different was that the stories were about heroes who weren't like other heroes. What Kirby contributed to the psychology of the heroes I think remains a mystery. I would suspect not a whole lot.

 

I see Kirby as someone who saw himself greater than he actually was.

 

i wrote here earlier that i think Kirby was burned out by the time he escaped Marvel and created the 4th world stuff. He had been creating comics for 30 years by this point

 

By the 70s Stan was not doing much in the comics as he had been either

 

What did Stan create after Jack left?

 

Weren't Marvel artists ordered to draw like Jack Kirby?

[Aman619]

the 4th world was chock full of neat ideas, although with plenty of stuff too far out there or silly, but it was the writing that stuck out as off-putting and stilted...not the creative component.

[BLBcomics-migration]

the 4th world was chock full of neat ideas, although with plenty of stuff too far out there or silly, but it was the writing that stuck out as off-putting and stilted...not the creative component.

 

I fully agree - the word smithing left something to be desired in Kirby's 4th world

 

heck, Kirby was still doing the 4th world when I co-opened my first comic book store back in Aug 1972 - the last few issues of NG, FP, and Jimmy were coming out

 

Lots of imagination going on - which further fuels the concept of Kirby as creator in the main of the 60s Marvel heroes and villains

 

No doubt about it, and i have always stated thusly, while not so plainly at times, that Lee contributed magnificent word smith concepts to The Marvel House of Ideas - he made the Marvels fun to read, to be sure, as i surely read them as they were new beginning in 1962 when i bought my first one being FF #4 and began hunting down more as they came out

 

But did Lee create the characters?

 

the historical record indicates he did not

[Aman619]

okay, since you summed up, heres my rebuttal. Kirby created Mr Miracle, Big Barda, thats Surfer guy of Death, etc etc. How long did they last before being cancelled? (even accountaing for DCs sales recordkeeping etc) Without that word smithing rounding out the characters, making them likable, fearsome, comical, etc, what good were powers and origins and costumes?

 

Stan created the "character" of the characters. Gotta go hand in hand or you get a "creator" of a bunch of short lived spandex oddities. I say its not so much teh character ( costume powers etc) but what you DO with it that accounts for success. Ideas are a dime a dozen as I have heard and witnessed over and over... its EXECUTION that counts.

 

Whenever one credits Kirby (re: Marvel Comics), you have to include Stan, and viceversa.

[Scrooge]

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

okay, since you summed up, heres my rebuttal. Kirby created Mr Miracle, Big Barda, thats Surfer guy of Death, etc etc. How long did they last before being cancelled? (even accountaing for DCs sales recordkeeping etc) Without that word smithing rounding out the characters, making them likable, fearsome, comical, etc, what good were powers and origins and costumes?

 

Stan created the "character" of the characters. Gotta go hand in hand or you get a "creator" of a bunch of short lived spandex oddities. I say its not so much teh character ( costume powers etc) but what you DO with it that accounts for success. Ideas are a dime a dozen as I have heard and witnessed over and over... its EXECUTION that counts.

 

Whenever one credits Kirby (re: Marvel Comics), you have to include Stan, and viceversa.

 

The Kirby 4th world enters the beginning of the rise of the comic book store syndrome

 

I wrote about this in Comic Book Artist #6 and #7 in the late 1990s - 25,000 words excerpted from my comics business history book on some of the origins of the Direct Sales Market

 

The key operative phrase in the two articles was "affidavit returns fraud"

 

The Kirby books were selling very well out of magazine distributors

 

Comic book dealer guys, myself included, were going into magazine distributors, buying up all the copies of certain books by people like Kirby, Adams, Smith, etc

 

We paid cash

 

The distributor would tell the publisher they shredded the books, never put em out for sale

 

Neal Adam's Green Lantern was the first book to experience this phenom i participated in

 

Because of "affidavit return fraud" the Direct Sales Market concept introduced with Print Mint's ZAP COMICS by Robert Crumb ^ crew back in 1968 was able to be entertained by DC and Marvel beginning in 1973

 

There were other forces at work in the comics business by the early 1970s - i know, i was "there" ground floor

 

What you think is popular myth, something i believed early on, but changed my mind once i started exploring the facts more closely

 

Now, i have stated quite a few times Stan Lee became inspired to do comic book Shakespeare word smithing -

 

but the comic book market forces in play by the 1970s altered the playing field

 

Plus the New Young Turks (as i used to call them) re Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Starlin, Smith, Rogers, Engelhart, Brunner, Austin, Simonson, etc also altered the playing field as Kirby became "too old" to be a fan fave any more

 

I talk with many of my creator friends from this time span all the time when i see em at shows or when they buy books from me via my catalogs. Some of them also are having trouble getting work these days, now being too old themselves - newer creators have replaced them

[BLBcomics-migration]

WAR FURY #1 has one of my favorite Don Heck covers - unfortunately i do not have a copy right now to post - this is the "bullet hole in the head" cover

 

That bullet hole head was blown up to become a HORRIFIC cover

 

classic Don Heck

 

It used to be common knowledge that Heck underwent some family problems which ate into the quality of his artwork in the 1960s

[rodan57]

Let those that doubt Heck's ability look at the art in Tales of Suspense #39 (1963). Even the muddy reprinting in Essentials can't hide the precision and gracefulness of the line and his command of perspective.

[Foolkiller]

okay, since you summed up, heres my rebuttal. Kirby created Mr Miracle, Big Barda, thats Surfer guy of Death, etc etc. How long did they last before being cancelled? (even accountaing for DCs sales recordkeeping etc) Without that word smithing rounding out the characters, making them likable, fearsome, comical, etc, what good were powers and origins and costumes?

 

Stan created the "character" of the characters. Gotta go hand in hand or you get a "creator" of a bunch of short lived spandex oddities. I say its not so much teh character ( costume powers etc) but what you DO with it that accounts for success. Ideas are a dime a dozen as I have heard and witnessed over and over... its EXECUTION that counts.

 

Whenever one credits Kirby (re: Marvel Comics), you have to include Stan, and viceversa.

 

The Kirby 4th world enters the beginning of the rise of the comic book store syndrome

 

I wrote about this in Comic Book Artist #6 and #7 in the late 1990s - 25,000 words excerpted from my comics business history book on some of the origins of the Direct Sales Market

 

The key operative phrase in the two articles was "affidavit returns fraud"

 

The Kirby books were selling very well out of magazine distributors

 

Comic book dealer guys, myself included, were going into magazine distributors, buying up all the copies of certain books by people like Kirby, Adams, Smith, etc

 

We paid cash

 

The distributor would tell the publisher they shredded the books, never put em out for sale

 

Neal Adam's Green Lantern was the first book to experience this phenom i participated in

 

Because of "affidavit return fraud" the Direct Sales Market concept introduced with Print Mint's ZAP COMICS by Robert Crumb ^ crew back in 1968 was able to be entertained by DC and Marvel beginning in 1973

 

There were other forces at work in the comics business by the early 1970s - i know, i was "there" ground floor

 

What you think is popular myth, something i believed early on, but changed my mind once i started exploring the facts more closely

 

Now, i have stated quite a few times Stan Lee became inspired to do comic book Shakespeare word smithing -

 

but the comic book market forces in play by the 1970s altered the playing field

 

Plus the New Young Turks (as i used to call them) re Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Starlin, Smith, Rogers, Engelhart, Brunner, Austin, Simonson, etc also altered the playing field as Kirby became "too old" to be a fan fave any more

 

I talk with many of my creator friends from this time span all the time when i see em at shows or when they buy books from me via my catalogs. Some of them also are having trouble getting work these days, now being too old themselves - newer creators have replaced them

 

You keep calling it word smithing. I'll call Kirby's drawing just simply "pretty pictures" and dumb it down the same way. People bought the books for that "word smithing" each month. And it didn't seem to matter whether you put Don Heck (and even if you think his earlier was good, his 60s work was subpar, so my point is, his books were selling when Stan was writing) or attaching John Romita, or Gene Colan, or any of these other so called "great" artists -- which some of them were very good -- others not so much.

 

Were the artists important? Sure, you needed good quality artwork to sell the books. It's a visual medium. But what made them uniquely Marvel, revolutionary, was what you dismiss as "word smithing". I equally dismiss Kirby as simply a "drawer".

[adamstrange]

Let those that doubt Heck's ability look at the art in Tales of Suspense #39 (1963). Even the muddy reprinting in Essentials can't hide the precision and gracefulness of the line and his command of perspective.

 

Don Heck, back when he wasn't being told to clone Kirby.

 

[Weird Paper]

...

[ciorac]

Bob,

 

You know as well as I do they all either lied, or had blurred memories at one time or another. Martin Nodell lied for years about being the cover artist on All-American #16. It really hurt Shelly that Martin would continue repeating that lie up until the mid 1990's! Nodell would go from show to show telling everyone he was the aritst, sign stuff etc.

 

Shelly approached him about it in San Diego in 1994 and asked him to stop, I remember how Nodell looked as Shelly confronted him. Shelly didn't get loud or obnoxious, it is not his way. He simply asked Martin "Martin, why are you telling people you drew the cover when you know it isn't true? You know I drew it, you were there. Please stop telling everyone that it was your work". Nodell, really said nothing, and simply walked away.

 

Shelly's recollection of the creation of Green Lantern was that he was given the assignment to draw the character with some notes on his appearance. He never really laid claim to aiding in the creation of GL, because he was and is a modest man. I told him he should. If you create the look, costume etc, of a hero, you helped create the hero. I don't think he ever took my advice though on that issue.

[TheWatcher]

okay, since you summed up, heres my rebuttal. Kirby created Mr Miracle, Big Barda, thats Surfer guy of Death, etc etc. How long did they last before being cancelled? (even accountaing for DCs sales recordkeeping etc) Without that word smithing rounding out the characters, making them likable, fearsome, comical, etc, what good were powers and origins and costumes?

 

Stan created the "character" of the characters. Gotta go hand in hand or you get a "creator" of a bunch of short lived spandex oddities. I say its not so much teh character ( costume powers etc) but what you DO with it that accounts for success. Ideas are a dime a dozen as I have heard and witnessed over and over... its EXECUTION that counts.

 

Whenever one credits Kirby (re: Marvel Comics), you have to include Stan, and viceversa.

 

The Kirby 4th world enters the beginning of the rise of the comic book store syndrome

 

I wrote about this in Comic Book Artist #6 and #7 in the late 1990s - 25,000 words excerpted from my comics business history book on some of the origins of the Direct Sales Market

 

The key operative phrase in the two articles was "affidavit returns fraud"

 

The Kirby books were selling very well out of magazine distributors

 

Comic book dealer guys, myself included, were going into magazine distributors, buying up all the copies of certain books by people like Kirby, Adams, Smith, etc

 

We paid cash

 

The distributor would tell the publisher they shredded the books, never put em out for sale

 

Neal Adam's Green Lantern was the first book to experience this phenom i participated in

 

Because of "affidavit return fraud" the Direct Sales Market concept introduced with Print Mint's ZAP COMICS by Robert Crumb ^ crew back in 1968 was able to be entertained by DC and Marvel beginning in 1973

 

There were other forces at work in the comics business by the early 1970s - i know, i was "there" ground floor

 

What you think is popular myth, something i believed early on, but changed my mind once i started exploring the facts more closely

 

Now, i have stated quite a few times Stan Lee became inspired to do comic book Shakespeare word smithing -

 

but the comic book market forces in play by the 1970s altered the playing field

 

Plus the New Young Turks (as i used to call them) re Adams, Wrightson, Kaluta, Starlin, Smith, Rogers, Engelhart, Brunner, Austin, Simonson, etc also altered the playing field as Kirby became "too old" to be a fan fave any more

 

I talk with many of my creator friends from this time span all the time when i see em at shows or when they buy books from me via my catalogs. Some of them also are having trouble getting work these days, now being too old themselves - newer creators have replaced them

 

You keep calling it word smithing. I'll call Kirby's drawing just simply "pretty pictures" and dumb it down the same way. People bought the books for that "word smithing" each month. And it didn't seem to matter whether you put Don Heck (and even if you think his earlier was good, his 60s work was subpar, so my point is, his books were selling when Stan was writing) or attaching John Romita, or Gene Colan, or any of these other so called "great" artists -- which some of them were very good -- others not so much.

 

Were the artists important? Sure, you needed good quality artwork to sell the books. It's a visual medium. But what made them uniquely Marvel, revolutionary, was what you dismiss as "word smithing". I equally dismiss Kirby as simply a "drawer".

 

This is from Mark Evanier's site. It addresses the discussion going on here:

 

http://www.povonline.com/jackfaq/JackFaq1.htm

[Aman619]

Great stuff from Evanier, as usual.

this paragraph was a bit surprising:

 

What other comic book artists did Jack admire?

 

Practically all his contemporaries...but if you asked him, the first names out of his mouth were usually Bill Everett, Wally Wood, Steve Ditko, Joe Simon, Don Heck, Gil Kane, Gene Colan, Lou Fine, Jack Cole, Briefer, Joe Kubert, Alex Toth, John Romita, Jim Steranko, C.C. Beck, George Tuska, Joe Shuster, Mort Meskin, Marie Severin, John Severin, Al Williamson, Ayers, Joe Maneely, Jack Davis, Sergio Aragonés and many others I'm leaving out. He also loved most of the great newspaper strip artists, including Milton Caniff, Alex Raymond, Hal Foster, Al Capp, Walt Kelly, Elzie Segar, Frank Robbins, Will Gould and Roy Crane. Frankly, I can't think of too many artists of whom Jack ever spoke in negative terms.

 

notice a major Silver/Bronze artist missing off that list?

Is is a coincidence that this artist's work is 180 degrees more super-realistic than Jack's work? Or just an oversight by Evanier making the list from memory?