So how much work did Bob Kane actually do?

[BLBcomics-migration]

Batman Articles

 

Maybe they don't post the archives anymore, I don't know. All of my CBM's and most of my Overstreet Golden Age Quarterlys, and monthly's were destroyed in Katrina, so I don't have copies of the articles I wrote in them or the many market reports. There was anohter fanzine/marketplace book that I used to write for too...Jack Mallette had a regular column in it called "Shaking the Bushes". What was that magazine called again?

 

If you have your First Quarterly, look at the people Bob mentions as being instrumental in getting it to become a reality, might just find my name there too...

 

You talking about the Jon Warren zine?

 

Can you email the people on that site you mention and see what the haps is with your article? All the other titles of articles i clicked onto opened up A-OK. Maybe they just need to fix something, as it clearly says Batman #1 Vs Superman #1 By Bill Ponsetti

 

I lost 90% of what i used to own when that warehouse flooded out: a million comic books, half a million baseball cards, 3000 pages of original art, most of my letters with a lot of pros and comics fandom buds form the 1960s, my mag & newspaper clipping files i had started in 1965

 

20 years of my life in comics from 1966 thru 1986 - gone

 

What i have these days i have reconstructed

 

took me 20 years now to put a smidgen of it back together

 

katrina

 

i can feel that pain

 

been there, done that, got the T-Shirt from the school of hard knocks

[ciorac]

I see i might have touched a nerve or two of yours with no Novocain, young man

 

Julius Schwartz was a friend to most every body, twas a pity that so many GA collectors denigrated him in the last few years of his life, as i firmly believe his Ambassadorship For DC Comics going to so many comicons kept him alive - and when that was taken away, he died

 

Leonard Brown? Partners with Malcolm Willits in Collector's book Store in Hollywood? One time partner with Richard Olson, my co-writer of the comics history articles in Overstreet? Sure, good friends, i was even in his bank vault where they stored the high grade good stuff at Collectors, still the GREATEST comic book store for back issues there ever was, ever will be

 

And your Batman #1 VS Superman #1 article will not open for me - the only one which will not

 

Thanks again for the young reference. And yes, you touched a nerve. Indiciting my credibility or anyone's for that matter typically does.

 

I appreciate your comments about Julie. I admired him very much, and I agree with every word you wrote about him above. He was an excellent comics historian, and shared much of what he knew with me in our many conversations. A true gentleman in every way.

 

Regarding Leonard Brown and Richard Olsen, know them both well. The high grade stuff you mentioned that Malcolm and them had? I bought it. All of it. Some of it became the Crescent City Collection.

 

Why my link is broke? I don't know, ask them. Maybe it is a consiracy? The web author had this to say about his choices of articles to post:

 

"The series of articles contained herein reflect some of the best fan produced stuff of modern times. All are reprinted here with the permission of the editors"

[ciorac]

Batman Articles

 

Maybe they don't post the archives anymore, I don't know. All of my CBM's and most of my Overstreet Golden Age Quarterlys, and monthly's were destroyed in Katrina, so I don't have copies of the articles I wrote in them or the many market reports. There was anohter fanzine/marketplace book that I used to write for too...Jack Mallette had a regular column in it called "Shaking the Bushes". What was that magazine called again?

 

If you have your First Quarterly, look at the people Bob mentions as being instrumental in getting it to become a reality, might just find my name there too...

 

You talking about the Jon Warren zine?

 

 

yes! that was it! what was that called again? Jon was a great guy. I enjoyed working with him.

[ciorac]

Batman Articles

 

Maybe they don't post the archives anymore, I don't know. All of my CBM's and most of my Overstreet Golden Age Quarterlys, and monthly's were destroyed in Katrina, so I don't have copies of the articles I wrote in them or the many market reports. There was anohter fanzine/marketplace book that I used to write for too...Jack Mallette had a regular column in it called "Shaking the Bushes". What was that magazine called again?

 

If you have your First Quarterly, look at the people Bob mentions as being instrumental in getting it to become a reality, might just find my name there too...

 

You talking about the Jon Warren zine?

 

 

yes! that was it! what was that called again? Jon was a great guy. I enjoyed working with him.

 

I remember now! It was called Comic Source if I am not mistaken.

[Aman619]

guys this is getting embarrassing... its now a "Whose resume is bigger than whose" contest! silly. Im not going to take sides.. but wow, have you no shame? Pretty soon youll be comparing scars like in Jaws! At least they ended up singing afterwards... So lets strike up the band!!!

[Bronty]

 

I remember now! It was called Comic Source if I am not mistaken.

 

Yeah. Jon had Comics Source and Collecting Hollywood (movie posters).

[BLBcomics-migration]

I have given you your respect for what you have brought to this hobby repeatedly in this thread and several other threads in which we have debated. When I felt you were wrong, I called you on it. No need to question my standing in the hobby, it has been secure for a long time and unless I do something to change that, I have no reason to assume that will change...

 

Ok Bill, where did i question your personal standing in the hobby? I was puzzling this last night, chose not to respond right away on the concept, slept on it, am asking here this morning the rhetorical concept of why you think i was doing that, can not find anywhere where i did that.

 

I am glad you feel secure re your standing in the hobby - so do i

 

I am also glad you feel a need to engage me in comics historical facts. i also feel secure in what i think i know re the history of the comics business as well as the comics hobby.

 

One has to alter my perceptions of comics reality with Spock Logic Facts. Merely saying i am wrong will not get you a seat at the table.

 

The comics world is not that large that most every body in it for a period of time does tend to end up knowing everybody else.

 

You first come onto my personal radar when you orchestrated the purchase of my friend Chuck McCleary's collection, which was dubbed the More Fun Collection once it passed out of his hands.

 

Chuck bought lots of books form me as well as many others. He told me he has taken it upon himself to re-purchase some of the GA books which he actually bought off the stands and saved as a kid - usually lower grades, he said.

 

I see him every San Diego comicon since the first one in 1970. We always remember and honor the memory of Rick Durell, who had bought a lot of the Tom Reilly books, the first person i knew to only collect super high grade, Chuck usually in tow with Leonard Brown when LB decides to cruise the dealer's room.

 

Chuck was THE MAN who brought Jerry Siegel into contact with organized comics fandom, a humorous story which, if you do not know it, will be happy to post it here. It involves Steranko's comics history #2.

[BLBcomics-migration]

I appreciate your comments about Julie. I admired him very much, and I agree with every word you wrote about him above. He was an excellent comics historian, and shared much of what he knew with me in our many conversations. A true gentleman in every way.

 

Regarding Leonard Brown and Richard Olsen, know them both well. The high grade stuff you mentioned that Malcolm and them had? I bought it. All of it. Some of it became the Crescent City Collection.

 

Why my link is broke? I don't know, ask them. Maybe it is a consiracy? The web author had this to say about his choices of articles to post:

 

"The series of articles contained herein reflect some of the best fan produced stuff of modern times. All are reprinted here with the permission of the editors"

 

Julie shared with everybody who would listen, and i was enraged when some "big time" dealers and collectors would say unkind things about him the last few years of his life, when he had not that much left to live for, having outlived wife and kids, and most of his contemporary friends having passed on.

 

I talked with Julie on a regular basis the last decade of his life. Comicons, on the phone as well - he would get upset with me if i missed calling him. He was passing on his personal knowledge to as many who would take the time to want to learn

 

Of course he knew a lot - and had known a lot of people in our profession/hobby. Heck, he was HP Lovecraft's agent the last couple years of HPL's life.

 

He knew a lot about Superman's origin, having known Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster since at least 1932, he wrote about both of them in the first SF fanzines he was co-producing with Mort Weisinger, Ackerman, etc

 

As a matter of fact, Jerry Joe Mort and Julie teamed up for a short period in subscription drives to build the circulation of Science Fiction Digest (Julie Mort) and Science Fiction (Jerry Joe) in that if you sent $2 to an address in New York, you got a year sub to both zines.

 

I have original copies of most Time Traveller and Science Fiction Digest - and have the ads for what i wrote about here. I thunk Mort kept all the sub bucks, as Science Fiction Digest went photo offset wrap around binding and Science Fiction stayed mimeo, succumbing after 5 issues as jerry & Joe tried to make the first Superman project for Humor Publishing get off the ground

 

Also, you did not buy "all of it" from Malcolm and Leonard.

 

By the time you would have been buying from them, they were mostly out of comics.

 

You would have gotten the remnants of a once proud holdings after they ceased being Collector's Book Store - the largest and most indpeth well stocked back issue comic book store the comics world will ever know. Back when they were in their prime, no one could touch what they had then - not Geppi, not Metro, no one nada

 

when i was in the "vault" in 1970 following the Disneyland Comicon at the Disneyland Hotel to talk some biz with Leonard about a huge pulp holdings a fellow in Idaho who contacted me which was "complete" along with a huge batch of original pulp art. The guy wanted $20K for it, i got a 10 % finder's fee - long fun story for an other time.

 

- yes, a vault, a real life walk in bank vault as their flag ship store was a former Bank of America on Hollywood Blvd in Hollywood. the books were stocked in there stand up library style, and were only super high grade keys and early issues.

 

I remember seeing a foot of Superman #1, a foot of Superman #2, a foot of #3, etc -one could tell from the colors of the spines and so it went covering the gamut of everything worth collecting at the time- and this was only the high grade stored there. The lower grades were out on "the floor" of the store, behind the counter,

 

Finally, I cannot "ask them" as there is no where on that Batman page to link or change the page to any sort of home page - i would like to read your Batman article, please.

[Monstro]

We all know that he made good use of some very talented assistants, but I was listening to one of the World Talk Radio shows (the Joe Sinnott one, I think), and the conversation turned to Jerry Robinson and his creating the Joker (which was Batman 1, after all, with only a handful of Detectives predating it). Presumably this took place while Bob Kane reclined in his office, with his feet on his desk, puffing a large cigar, pausing only to mutter, "Yeah, that'll do, Jerry."

 

So if Sprang drew a lot of the stories, and Jerry Robinson others, and Sheldon Moldoff still others, how much of an artistic body of work did Kane leave behind? Did he bother doing breakdowns for his assistants, or just leave them to it, safe in the knowledge that his name was still on the splash page? How many stories are indisputably pure Kane?

 

why so bitter?

[cd4ever]

Watch as a previously very entertaining and informative thread derails into a grudge match between 2 comic insiders as they battle to determine who has sucked up to more comic professionals.

[BLBcomics-migration]

guys this is getting embarrassing... its now a "Whose resume is bigger than whose" contest! silly. Im not going to take sides.. but wow, have you no shame? Pretty soon youll be comparing scars like in Jaws! At least they ended up singing afterwards... So lets strike up the band!!!

 

Well, i was responding to Bill demonstrating concern he wasn't being taken seriously. Some times when some one makes a claim, one needs to back it up with who you might have talked with, or where the data came from. In some cases, merely old war stories - trying not to bore any one

[ciorac]

guys this is getting embarrassing... its now a "Whose resume is bigger than whose" contest! silly. Im not going to take sides.. but wow, have you no shame? Pretty soon youll be comparing scars like in Jaws! At least they ended up singing afterwards... So lets strike up the band!!!

 

Show me the way to go home, I'm tired and I wanna go to bed...

I had a little drink about an hour ago and it's gone straight to my head...

 

Shame? Not sure what you mean by that. I know you have read many of Bob's posts as I have read many of your responses to them. He has a habit of writing over and over about why he knows more about comics than the rest of us, as if he, and only he, has been privvy to the people with this information. Perhaps I was wrong, but I read his post to me (that resulted in my one paragraph history of my comics life)(hardly a tome-like diatribe as you suggest), as if he was suggesting that I have not the experience or first hand knowledge of that which I write about. My response was simply a retort to that.

 

My apologies if it embarrassed you.

[ciorac]

Watch as a previously very entertaining and informative thread derails into a grudge match between 2 comic insiders as they battle to determine who has sucked up to more comic professionals.

 

And what exactly have you contributed to this discussion or the unraveling of comics history. I may disagree with Bob Beerbohm on his ascertians about Kane and Lee, but I at least I know he has done the research to have an informed opinion. In fact, he probably has done more research about comics history than most people in the hobby. Perhaps Mark Waid, Steranko, Bails, Biljo White, Greg Theakson, et al could make an argument for themselves that I certainly wouldn't debate.

 

I've never sucked up to anyone in my life. Never will. I made friends with some people who happened to be comics professionals as I was in their company for some 10 plus years. Is it wrong to behave that way? They liked me, I liked them, we had a common interest, and enjoyed talking about it. Plain and simple.

[Aman619]

guys this is getting embarrassing... its now a "Whose resume is bigger than whose" contest! silly. Im not going to take sides.. but wow, have you no shame? Pretty soon youll be comparing scars like in Jaws! At least they ended up singing afterwards... So lets strike up the band!!!

 

Show me the way to go home, I'm tired and I wanna go to bed...

I had a little drink about an hour ago and it's gone straight to my head...

 

Shame? Not sure what you mean by that. I know you have read many of Bob's posts as I have read many of your responses to them. He has a habit of writing over and over about why he knows more about comics than the rest of us, as if he, and only he, has been privvy to the people with this information. Perhaps I was wrong, but I read his post to me (that resulted in my one paragraph history of my comics life)(hardly a tome-like diatribe as you suggest), as if he was suggesting that I have not the experience or first hand knowledge of that which I write about. My response was simply a retort to that.

 

My apologies if it embarrassed you.

 

thats the song, word for word!! nice!

 

I just love that line from the McCarthy Hearings" "Have you no shame senator?". Not meant to be personal...just as a plea to make it stop.

 

You both know plenty about comics history from personal experiences. That much is clear.

[ciorac]

guys this is getting embarrassing... its now a "Whose resume is bigger than whose" contest! silly. Im not going to take sides.. but wow, have you no shame? Pretty soon youll be comparing scars like in Jaws! At least they ended up singing afterwards... So lets strike up the band!!!

 

Show me the way to go home, I'm tired and I wanna go to bed...

I had a little drink about an hour ago and it's gone straight to my head...

 

Shame? Not sure what you mean by that. I know you have read many of Bob's posts as I have read many of your responses to them. He has a habit of writing over and over about why he knows more about comics than the rest of us, as if he, and only he, has been privvy to the people with this information. Perhaps I was wrong, but I read his post to me (that resulted in my one paragraph history of my comics life)(hardly a tome-like diatribe as you suggest), as if he was suggesting that I have not the experience or first hand knowledge of that which I write about. My response was simply a retort to that.

 

My apologies if it embarrassed you.

 

thats the song, word for word!! nice!

 

I just love that line from the McCarthy Hearings" "Have you no shame senator?". Not meant to be personal...just as a plea to make it stop.

 

You both know plenty about comics history from personal experiences. That much is clear.

 

I love that quote too, something like

 

"Have you no sense of decency at long last Senator, have you no sense of decency?"

[ciorac]

I appreciate your comments about Julie. I admired him very much, and I agree with every word you wrote about him above. He was an excellent comics historian, and shared much of what he knew with me in our many conversations. A true gentleman in every way.

 

Regarding Leonard Brown and Richard Olsen, know them both well. The high grade stuff you mentioned that Malcolm and them had? I bought it. All of it. Some of it became the Crescent City Collection.

 

Why my link is broke? I don't know, ask them. Maybe it is a consiracy? The web author had this to say about his choices of articles to post:

 

"The series of articles contained herein reflect some of the best fan produced stuff of modern times. All are reprinted here with the permission of the editors"

 

Julie shared with everybody who would listen, and i was enraged when some "big time" dealers and collectors would say unkind things about him the last few years of his life, when he had not that much left to live for, having outlived wife and kids, and most of his contemporary friends having passed on.

 

I talked with Julie on a regular basis the last decade of his life. Comicons, on the phone as well - he would get upset with me if i missed calling him. He was passing on his personal knowledge to as many who would take the time to want to learn

 

Of course he knew a lot - and had known a lot of people in our profession/hobby. Heck, he was HP Lovecraft's agent the last couple years of HPL's life.

 

He knew a lot about Superman's origin, having known Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster since at least 1932, he wrote about both of them in the first SF fanzines he was co-producing with Mort Weisinger, Ackerman, etc

 

As a matter of fact, Jerry Joe Mort and Julie teamed up for a short period in subscription drives to build the circulation of Science Fiction Digest (Julie Mort) and Science Fiction (Jerry Joe) in that if you sent $2 to an address in New York, you got a year sub to both zines.

 

I have original copies of most Time Traveller and Science Fiction Digest - and have the ads for what i wrote about here. I thunk Mort kept all the sub bucks, as Science Fiction Digest went photo offset wrap around binding and Science Fiction stayed mimeo, succumbing after 5 issues as jerry & Joe tried to make the first Superman project for Humor Publishing get off the ground

 

Also, you did not buy "all of it" from Malcolm and Leonard.

 

By the time you would have been buying from them, they were mostly out of comics.

 

You would have gotten the remnants of a once proud holdings after they ceased being Collector's Book Store - the largest and most indpeth well stocked back issue comic book store the comics world will ever know. Back when they were in their prime, no one could touch what they had then - not Geppi, not Metro, no one nada

 

when i was in the "vault" in 1970 following the Disneyland Comicon at the Disneyland Hotel to talk some biz with Leonard about a huge pulp holdings a fellow in Idaho who contacted me which was "complete" along with a huge batch of original pulp art. The guy wanted $20K for it, i got a 10 % finder's fee - long fun story for an other time.

 

- yes, a vault, a real life walk in bank vault as their flag ship store was a former Bank of America on Hollywood Blvd in Hollywood. the books were stocked in there stand up library style, and were only super high grade keys and early issues.

 

I remember seeing a foot of Superman #1, a foot of Superman #2, a foot of #3, etc -one could tell from the colors of the spines and so it went covering the gamut of everything worth collecting at the time- and this was only the high grade stored there. The lower grades were out on "the floor" of the store, behind the counter,

 

Finally, I cannot "ask them" as there is no where on that Batman page to link or change the page to any sort of home page - i would like to read your Batman article, please.

 

"Also, you did not buy "all of it" from Malcolm and Leonard.

 

By the time you would have been buying from them, they were mostly out of comics.

 

You would have gotten the remnants of a once proud holdings after they ceased being Collector's Book Store - the largest and most indpeth well stocked back issue comic book store the comics world will ever know. Back when they were in their prime, no one could touch what they had then - not Geppi, not Metro, no one nada"

 

 

Can't argue with you there, as from what those guys told me it was certainly the treasure trove of treasure troves in its heyday.

 

What I did manage to buy from them was hardly table scraps though, as it consisted of several thousand high grade to mid grade golden age, that fetched nearly a million dollars within four months of the purchases. As I mentioned in a previous thread, first I bought Richard Olsen's entire golden age collection, then he put me in touch with Chuck McCleary and I and some partners bought his entire golden age collection, and the final piece of the trifecta was Leonard Brown's high grade golden age collection. They certainly knew how to cherry pick old Malcolm Willits' books didn't they?

[Aman619]

yeah, but all the Oldbucs and Saddlebags were long gone .... all you got was the also-ran common stuff from the 30s and 40s. Some haul!

[ciorac]

yeah, but all the Oldbucs and Saddlebags were long gone .... all you got was the also-ran common stuff from the 30s and 40s. Some haul!

 

 

Excellent point.

 

Imagine my disappointment when the much coveted "Clancy the Cop" wasn't present in the collection. I guess I will never know the joy of owning such a powerful book. I wept over the stacks of 9.4 Comics and Stories, and chorlted over the complete set of Fiction House. And nearly sobbed over the three foot tall stack of Timely's.

 

Ah well....we grieve, then at long last....we move on....

[BLBcomics-migration]

Bill,

 

where did i denigrate your knowledge of comics?

 

And i do not doubt you bought a pile of nice stuff from Leonard

 

that ain't the issue, which is they had a LOT more back in their prime, when Collector's Book Store was the place to go for the best primo grade comic books - so no matter what you got from them, it was a pale shade of the prior best holdings of comic books the world will ever know

 

and i do no know what you mean when you wrote, "....the final piece of the trifecta was Leonard Brown's high grade golden age collection. They certainly knew how to cherry pick old Malcolm Willits' books didn't they?...."

 

Leonard and Malcolm were 50-50 partners - with Leonard handling the comic books more so and Malcolm doing the movie stuff more so, in their store.

 

I knew fully well you bought Rich Olson's collection, and Chuck i knew about also, and regarding the latter's books, i did not have a hope and a prayer to come up with the half a mil plus it took to make him part with his books

 

Now, Leonard, i did not know you were the purchaser = well done, young man

 

and i think this thread has come to a close for me, i think - i know what i know, others are welcome to their opines. I listen to informed disagreements, and i discard those that blindly defend that what they might not know that much about.

 

I have not placed you in either category as of yet

 

I have yet to read anything here which makes me alter my view of how Goodman & crew treated what they later called "work made for hire" - something not promised as such in the early 1960s, before a guy like Roy Thomas came on the set at Marvel, and RT i like a lot. Heck, I like Stan, but he did do his Uncle Martin's bidding, claiming to be the inventor of Marvel, and the creators left on the sideline, later on sounding like so much spoiled grapes.

 

And as far as i am concerned, we have been having a friendly discussion. I came to this table with results of investigations I have conducted, and there will always be disagreements with what i report. I take it all in stride and keep moving on. Peace, bro

[ciorac]

Bill,

 

where did i denigrate your knowledge of comics?

 

And i do not doubt you bought a pile of nice stuff from Leonard

 

that ain't the issue, which is they had a LOT more back in their prime, when Collector's Book Store was the place to go for the best primo grade comic books - so no matter what you got from them, it was a pale shade of the prior best holdings of comic books the world will ever know

 

and i do no know what you mean when you wrote, "....the final piece of the trifecta was Leonard Brown's high grade golden age collection. They certainly knew how to cherry pick old Malcolm Willits' books didn't they?...."

 

Leonard and Malcolm were 50-50 partners - with Leonard handling the comic books more so and Malcolm doing the movie stuff more so, in their store.

 

I knew fully well you bought Rich Olson's collection, and Chuck i knew about also, and regarding the latter's books, i did not have a hope and a prayer to come up with the half a mil plus it took to make him part with his books

 

Now, Leonard, i did not know you were the purchaser = well done, young man

 

and i think this thread has come to a close for me, i think - i know what i know, others are welcome to their opines. I listen to informed disagreements, and i discard those that blindly defend that what they might not know that much about.

 

I have not placed you in either category as of yet

 

I have yet to read anything here which makes me alter my view of how Goodman & crew treated what they later called "work made for hire" - something not promised as such in the early 1960s, before a guy like Roy Thomas came on the set at Marvel, and RT i like a lot. Heck, I like Stan, but he did do his Uncle Martin's bidding, claiming to be the inventor of Marvel, and the creators left on the sideline, later on sounding like so much spoiled grapes.

 

And as far as i am concerned, we have been having a friendly discussion. I came to this table with results of investigations I have conducted, and there will always be disagreements with what i report. I take it all in stride and keep moving on. Peace, bro

 

Thanks Bobby. I believe it has been friendly as well. Just spirited. You know me well enough to know how passionately I can discuss that which I love. You are the same way. Get you on a roll, and you can go for hours! Remember that night in San Diego in '95, you practically recited the entire history of comics in the hotel room that night, whilst we partied and looked at funny books. Good times.

 

What I meant by "cherry picked", is they managed to choose the nicest copies of their favorite books for themselves. I am glad they did. Particulary Leonard's stuff. They were just stunning! Makes me wish I could have shopped at Malcolm's place back in the day.

 

Peace bro.