"Limited Distribution in Some Areas" - Conan #3 / SS#4

[cosmic-spider-man]

Thanks for putting up with my questions I really appreciate your time. On this what I am getting at is that these comics in the 3 packs I pictured above I know they were published by Marvel Comics and Printed at the Sparta printing plant, but what I was hopping that you might know is were these only distributed through Whitman, or did some of these comics "the ones with the price and the Issue number in the large diamonds" get Distributed through the Direct Market or the ID Magazine Distributors? Hope I did not sound rude in my wording of this question .

 

Not sure if you answered this one or not maybe in another thread, but I will ask again was their a minum number of any given issues a ID Magazine Distributor or a DM Distributor had to get when he made his order? and were comics shipped out of Sparta printing plant in cases of 300 or more or do you know? Thanks again for reading my questions I am very, very interested in every thing to do with the eairly Direct Market and the ID Magazine Distributors of the 70's and I will have lots more questions for you if you don't mind me asking.

[BLBcomics-migration]

exactly how the whitman 3 packs you have got to market,i do not know for sure, but my experience with Whitman as a customer back then says all their stuff went thru their own system

 

Query #2: the minimum order in the early days of the DM for a drop point was 50 copies into the DM - and you did not always get such short order stuff. It was best to order in 300 increments

 

Comic books were shipped 300 to a bag - originally like a brown paper grocery bag which could easily fall apart and books get damaged but we all put up such a stink that eventually Phil Seuling was able to work out a deal where he got our stuff into boxes - and it cost 50 cent per box extra, if you wanted boxes for protection

 

And when the DM first started, the 300 bagged books were tied together in 50 copies lots with WIRE, which cut into the books, we called em "tops & bottoms" in my locale

 

It was a major achievement when we got the people in Sparta to get rid of the wire and use string, which only damaged a few books tops & bottoms

[cosmic-spider-man]

Comic books were shipped 300 to a bag - originally like a brown paper grocery bag which could easily fall apart and books get damaged but we all put up such a stink that eventually Phil Seuling was able to work out a deal where he got our stuff into boxes - and it cost 50 cent per box extra, if you wanted boxes for protection

 

And when the DM first started, the 300 bagged books were tied together in 50 copies lots with WIRE, which cut into the books, we called em "tops & bottoms" in my locale

 

It was a major achievement when we got the people in Sparta to get rid of the wire and use string, which only damaged a few books tops & bottoms

 

Very interesting stuff I have some older comics that look like they may have been Top & Bottom books. I did not know about the 300 bags but I had heard that Newstands got theirs in bundles tied with string what year did they stop using wire and start using string? About those 300 pack bags were each bag all the same issue, or could their be two or more comics from the same month in a single bag? Would it be safe to assume if you were a ID Magazine Distributor and you wanted low demand comic from the Sparta Plant that you had to take at the least a bag of 300?

 

Another thing I not realy clear on, did the ID Magazine Distributors "all 900 or so of them" get their comics directly from the Sparta Plant or was their Bigger Distributors who were like drop points for the plant and would break up the comic bags to be sent to all the smaller ID's maybe in bundles of 50? Sorry if this is a dumb question

[BLBcomics-migration]

It was a major achievement when we got the people in Sparta to get rid of the wire and use string, which only damaged a few books tops & bottoms

 

Very interesting stuff I have some older comics that look like they may have been Top & Bottom books. I did not know about the 300 bags but I had heard that Newstands got theirs in bundles tied with string what year did they stop using wire and start using string? About those 300 pack bags were each bag all the same issue, or could their be two or more comics from the same month in a single bag? Would it be safe to assume if you were a ID Magazine Distributor and you wanted low demand comic from the Sparta Plant that you had to take at the least a bag of 300?

 

Another thing I not realy clear on, did the ID Magazine Distributors "all 900 or so of them" get their comics directly from the Sparta Plant or was their Bigger Distributors who were like drop points for the plant and would break up the comic bags to be sent to all the smaller ID's maybe in bundles of 50? Sorry if this is a dumb question

 

Some where in the mid 1970s comic book dealers got em to stop the wire bites, the string bundles only bit in a couple issues deep. the wire used to dig in way deeper

 

Yes, each 300 bag would be the same issue, when you got 50 of an issue, or 100, or 200, those would be bundled by themselves - bags with less than 300 would generally sustain more book damage than a 300 count bag

 

Didn't matter how many an ID took in, they could honor system consignment return unsold stuff, unlike the DM which was from the get-go non-returnable

 

Yes, each of the UD distributors got their mag shipments direct from Sparta - as Sparta printed way more than just comic books

 

The secret of Sparta's success was their traffic control systems

[cosmic-spider-man]

Didn't matter how many an ID took in, they could honor system consignment return unsold stuff, unlike the DM which was from the get-go non-returnable

 

So did the ID's make orders on what they wanted or did they just get what the plant shipped them, did the ID's make the decision or did someone at Sparta plant and if so was it based on what the ID sold in eairler months?

 

Another question about the East cost Mafia books that Chuck got, were these unsold copy's pulled from newstands after not selling or did they just warehouse them as soon as they got them and report them as unsold? Do you know who that ID was who filled that warehouse, was their more than one responsible for it?

 

 

Yes, each of the UD distributors got their mag shipments direct from Sparta - as Sparta printed way more than just comic books

 

The secret of Sparta's success was their traffic control systems

 

 

Sparta Printing Plant must had been a Huge Facility it would have been cool to have taken a tour of it back in the day. Did you ever visit the plant? You wouldn't know where one could find some pictures of it would you? Is that Plant building still their, I think I read some where that it closed years ago .

[BLBcomics-migration]

Didn't matter how many an ID took in, they could honor system consignment return unsold stuff, unlike the DM which was from the get-go non-returnable

 

1) So did the ID's make orders on what they wanted or did they just get what the plant shipped them, did the ID's make the decision or did someone at Sparta plant and if so was it based on what the ID sold in earlier months?

 

2) Another question about the East cost Mafia books that Chuck got, were these unsold copy's pulled from newstands after not selling or did they just warehouse them as soon as they got them and report them as unsold? Do you know who that ID was who filled that warehouse, was their more than one responsible for it?

 

 

Yes, each of the UD distributors got their mag shipments direct from Sparta - as Sparta printed way more than just comic books

 

The secret of Sparta's success was their traffic control systems

 

3) Sparta Printing Plant must had been a Huge Facility it would have been cool to have taken a tour of it back in the day. Did you ever visit the plant? You wouldn't know where one could find some pictures of it would you? Is that Plant building still their, I think I read some where that it closed years ago .

 

1) Publishers like DC had road men who went into the Id distributor, trying to monitor what was being sold, and adjusted advance orders - these were the days before computer inventory controls. yes, the levels of incoming books were predicated on what they previously sold - the called the files "Cycle Sheets"

 

2) THE DETAILS of the mafia books as in how they got them i do not know, and i doubt any body is going to find out all the fine line details

 

3) Sparta as in World Color Press was indeed HUGE. Have you ever seen the 1973 tabloid AMAZING WORLD OF SUPERMAN Official Metropolis Edition?

 

It contains all kinds of photo pics of World Color Press and the processes in printing, traffic control, etc

 

If i get some time soon, i will post some pics here out of that "amazing" tabloid mag, and i would not mind if some one else beat me to the punch - yes, closed down years ago

[cosmic-spider-man]

Is this the book you are talking about if so I may try to get me one

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

yes, there is a large section of pics walking one thru Sparta World Color Press

 

- well worth picking up for some one interested in what you ask

 

I happen to have a few NM copies for $40 a pop post paid

[cosmic-spider-man]

pm sent about the Superman book.

 

 

I do not remember my initial Star Wars numbers - the first 3 were under ordered by most dealers and the rush was handled by #4 - and these first issues were reprinted several times to handle demand

 

this thread is about "Limited Distribution in Some Areas" so I will get a little more on topic. Posted in another thread by awe4one this scan from a 1980 Overstreet and it says that Star Wars #4 had "Low Distribution in some Areas" what do you make of that, way off base or possible? and do you know anything about that SW #1 35 cent with 1500 copies? A year or two later Overstreet droped the Low Distribution notation on the #4 maybe they changed their minds .

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

There may very well have been "low" distribution is some areas and the term we used back then was "regional scarcity" - which was brought on by one or two persons going into an ID distributor and buying ALL the copies of any given book, hence, that book would not get out onto the racks

 

That may have occurred some where in the country and a person said to Bob Overstreet that SW #4 (or any other given book) did not appear in their area, hence, Bob ran with that

 

Then he would have found out from dealers like me, that, heck, no, it ain't rare

 

I know almost nothing (by close personal choice) about differences in cover prices as prices were raised over the years

 

That STar Wars #1 35 cent edition being only 1500 copies is bogus to me, always has been, cuz the printing presses as human operated machines simply did not run that slow

 

It is near impossible for one of those color presses to be cranked up on - then stopped and only 1500 copies be run off - it just doesn't happen that way

 

The 30 center would have been on the press first, then stopped, a 35 cent plug put in place, and started up again - the presses would have been running 40,000 an hour thereabouts

 

How many minutes would that be? You do the math please

 

I come out with 3.75 minutes - am i wrong?

 

Sparta did not run that way - a complete waste of time

 

there were many more than simply 1500 run off

 

I did not buy into the 1500 myth back hen, and i surely do not now

 

I do not get the fascination with 20/25, 25/30, 30/35, 35/40 cent cover price changes as a collectible - it is silly to pay out huge bucks for these, but that is just my humble opine

 

Others are more than welcome to put out their bucks on those cover change books

[joe_collector]

I do not get the fascination with 20/25, 25/30, 30/35, 35/40 cent cover price changes as a collectible - it is silly to pay out huge bucks for these, but that is just my humble opine

 

But $150K for an old piece of SA newsprint is cool, though?

 

This wasn't your era, and I think we all get that, but many BA collectors find these interesting to collect, especially as they're incredibly rare and virtually impossible to locate in HG.

 

For example, let's say we both had unlimited funds, and my goal was to buy CGC 9.0 or higher copies of ASM 1-5 and yours was to find similar CGC (or even raw) 9.X copies of ASM 169-173 35-cent variants - I bet I'd win easy.

[cosmic-spider-man]

I do not get the fascination with 20/25, 25/30, 30/35, 35/40 cent cover price changes as a collectible - it is silly to pay out huge bucks for these, but that is just my humble opine

 

Well I am one of those crazy people who spent too much money and way to much time looking for those price variants. The reason is that the 70's was like my Golden age of comics it was when I first got into comics so I really loved this time and these price change comics were part of the History of that. And I will have to agree with JC after years of hunting for these they seem to be extreamely rare and it is much easier to find eairly Silver age comics in high grade than most of the 35 cent price variants. Do you think it is possible that their may be a warehouse full of these some where that never sold kind of like the East Mafia books ?

 

 

It is near impossible for one of those color presses to be cranked up on - then stopped and only 1500 copies be run off - it just doesn't happen that way

 

The 30 center would have been on the press first, then stopped, a 35 cent plug put in place, and started up again - the presses would have been running 40,000 an hour thereabouts

 

How many minutes would that be? You do the math please

 

I come out with 3.75 minutes - am i wrong?

 

Sparta did not run that way - a complete waste of time

 

there were many more than simply 1500 run off

 

I did not buy into the 1500 myth back hen, and i surely do not now

 

 

What you say about the 40,000 per hour would make 1500 copies in 2.25 minutes is what I got Wow this is very interesting I had no ideal that they ran that fast and you are right it would be nuts to shut down and change the black plate to only run off 1500 copies of a price change in just over 2 minutes. Wonder how long it took them to stop the press to change a plate and start again? When you say "a 35 cent plug put in place" you do mean they changed the black plate right, or do you mean they added the price change to the plate they already had? What do you think would be more realistic number on those Star Wars #1 variant then maybe 10,000 that would take about 15 minutes, was their a minimum number they would have to print? What about comics that had many price changes, I know allot of Marvel comics from 1977 had 4 diffrent price variations that were all first prints so the press must have got stoped several times to get out a single comic like a Star Wars #1 they must have really hated this. Was their a minimum number of copies to get a comic Reprinted since very few comics ever got reprinted? Do you know the number? I think I read on Chuck's site that Star Wars 1 printed over a million copies I guess that is includeing reprints .

 

One more argument for this subject, Flying Donut posted a letter on hear a few years back from Marvel that suggested that the Star Wars #1 variant was only sold in 6 cities in the U.S. and if their were 900 ID's back then "each had their own city right" and only 6 of them got the 35 cent version that could not have been all that many comics what do you think? I do have evidence that supports that they were only sold in 5 or 6 cities .

[BLBcomics-migration]

I had comic book stores beginning in Aug 1972, and had been dealing since 1966. i know fully well the impact of price increases. I lived thru them trying to make a living as the inflation increases shot way ahead of national inflation rates

 

problem was, as the cover prices increased, and at one time the price increases were averaging every 9 months we figured out in the mid 1970s, circulation would drop off

 

it was a vicious down ward spiral circle, like a vortex going down a drain

 

I distinctly remember the biggest sales drop off happening when books went to 35 cents. At that time one could not get 3 books for under a buck - and over sales really fell off for a spell, not to really come back until Byrne,Miller and Alan Moore captured the public imagination - and sales began creeping back up for a while

 

Yes, supposedly the tale goes, and has always been told since it was a new tale, that only 5 or 6 cities had them - and is probably correct. I was part of the net work back then trying to figure out where the variants were surfacing when they were new

 

The 1970s, cough, cough, bronze era, was very much my time - i was buying tens of thousands of comic books a month - and reading most of it, me calling in "market research" in the process

 

By 1986 i had a million comic books - a lot of it 1970s stuff

 

We were very aware of market testing by Marvel in various test cities before they did an over all price increase - people would call me up to order the different prices. I was a big buyer of every aspect of the comics world - and catered to what ever any body wanted to collect

 

Me, i am happy to have a copy of something to read, as that is the major aspect which runs my wagon

 

I remember when Marvel began making DM copies, putting a Marvel hero (usually Spiderman, IIRC) in the bar code box, and people were going nuts trying to figure out which version was being printed first, then which one was 2nd, thereby trying to make sure they had a "first printing"

 

that was silly as well

 

but i catered to what ever any body wanted to collect

 

The quest of Spider 1-6 or Spider 169-173 would never happen, cuz i have never cared to accumulate books based on cover price variant and/or DM vs ID copy variants - once i read it i moved on trying to get books i had not read before

 

Re how many an hour being printed, i do not know, but setting up the printing presses, which is a costly time consuming affair, dictates that they would not run odd just 1500 copies of ANYTHING

 

Once you get a copy of the World Color Press pics in AMAZING WORLD OF SUPERMAN tabloid from 1973, you will see what i mean, i hope

[joe_collector]

The quest of Spider 1-6 or Spider 169-173 would never happen, cuz i have never cared to accumulate books based on cover price variant

 

Yeah, and I'd never ever buy CGC 9.X copies of ASM 1-5 either, but that's what a HYPOTHETICAL scenario is..

 

And BTW, the BA was NOT "your time", as in the era you grew up in and identify with.

[joe_collector]

Re how many an hour being printed, i do not know, but setting up the printing presses, which is a costly time consuming affair, dictates that they would not run odd just 1500 copies of ANYTHING

 

I disagree with this, especially in terms of the Westerns. Those had very low print runs to begin with (and were cancelled during or right after) and with only 6 cities getting these, how many copies of Rawhide Kid or Kid Colt do you think they printed with a 35-cent cover?

 

It's also possible Sparta printed more, but only used/assembled what they needed for the orders - remember the only difference was the cover and slapping in 1500 covers into the mix is not that big a job. .

[BLBcomics-migration]

Hi Joe C

 

The common myth was 6 cities, could have been more, we thought it was more back in the day, and the way the printing presses started up, whether guts or covers, they just didn't do it for a few minutes, i wonder if you have ever been close up and personal to the HUGE presses that printed this stuff?

 

Yes, it is possible they only assembled a smaller amount, and discarded the balance printed up - no one knows for sure - and did not then, as there was a lot of speculation of how many and where they ended up then, as now

 

Sure, the hypo you laid out was skewed as i estimate there are at least 20,000 Am Spiderman #1 still in existence, most of them in the "read" condition levels, having written about this very subject in a Comic Book marketplace back in the #30s of that fine magazine's run

 

If you were about 12 when all this came down, the the "BA" is your "Golden Age", to be sure, and i would not want to take that "sense of wonder" away from any one

 

In 1972 i was 20, running my own comic book store in Berkeley, having a blast, a great time, baptizing people in the "comics religion", garnering new readers every day, recommending what i thought were better "reads" to all my customers. That is an accident of birth date, nothing else intended.

 

So, while in my 20s, i still thought in terms of the "sense of wonder" which came from reading the creator's four color fantasies of friends of mine like Wrightson, Kaluta, Engelhart, Starlin, Brunner etc

 

- so, yes, it was still "my time", but that is open to debate, i suppose, as i was surely comics jaded by my mid 30s dealing with the weight of a million comic books by then.

 

I offer up my recollections and comics wisdom brought on with the knowledge gleaned based on having "been there" in the behind the scenes building of the DM

 

- there were 100s of us 20-somethings back then re-building the comics market once the ID distributors began to abandon getting their allotments of their weekly comics shipments to the marketplace to hopefully get bought.

 

In late 1972 we got into the practice of trying to buy ALL the comics Gilboy Agency in Oakland Calif got in when we went in one day and were told there would be no comic books one week for us to buy because they ran out of processing time, and simply sent them over to be shredded for return credit via honor system consignment affidavit.

 

As other comic book stores opened up based on our lead in Comics & Comix and the handful of other comic book stores then in existence, Gilboy Agency (Oakland), then later Golden Gate Distribution (San Fran), began to make allocations so we were not able to buy every comic book they got in, we shared.

 

Cover prices were going up averaging every 9 months for a while there in the 1970s, it was depressing trying to build and then retain regular readers as their pocket book was invaded by inflation

 

I bring forth the supposition that there were other ID distributors who got in the 35 centers and simply shredded them without placing them out for their route drivers.

 

One has to remember from back then, as i painfully do, that comic books were the LOWEST rung of the ID distribution mentality for placing product out for sale. It was a tremendous battle to re-gain a modicum of respect for being a reader of comic books in America -

 

I welcome every one's thoughts as i continue to compile my comics business history book

[cosmic-spider-man]

Hope you don't mind me asking more about this subject but I am very, very interested

 

You said;

Yes, supposedly the tale goes, and has always been told since it was a new tale, that only 5 or 6 cities had them - and is probably correct. I was part of the net work back then trying to figure out where the variants were surfacing when they were new

 

Did you ever figure out where the Variants did surface? I think I may know 4 of those cities and have some good ideals on a 5th one as well.

 

 

We were very aware of market testing by Marvel in various test cities before they did an over all price increase - people would call me up to order the different prices. I was a big buyer of every aspect of the comics world - and catered to what ever any body wanted to collect

 

 

How were you aware of it? did Marvel tell you and other Big Dealers that they were going to be doing a price increase test back in the day? If so did they explain how it would be done or why they chose the cities that they did?

 

 

 

problem was, as the cover prices increased, and at one time the price increases were averaging every 9 months we figured out in the mid 1970s, circulation would drop off

 

it was a vicious down ward spiral circle, like a vortex going down a drain

 

I distinctly remember the biggest sales drop off happening when books went to 35 cents. At that time one could not get 3 books for under a buck - and over sales really fell off for a spell, not to really come back until Byrne,Miller and Alan Moore captured the public imagination - and sales began creeping back up for a while

 

Yes I can back this up as a young kid in grade school almost every boy and even some girls read comics. At the time they were 25 cent each and we would bring them to school trade them, let each other read our copy's that they did not have and spend allot of time talking about how my Super Hero could beat your Super Hero. Well that did not last long, either the price drove them away or I was just a bigger geek than everyone else because by the time I was in 9th grade I only knew of one other boy besides myself who still bought comics, I think they were 50 cent by then. Also when they were still 25 cent you could buy comics at every Store in town Drug Stores, Grocery Stores, Department Stores almost every where you went would be a spinner rack of comics, and by 1980 I think their were only 3 places left in my area where you could still buy them.

 

Do you know why the comic company's went down this road of rapid Price increases through the 70's? They must have known it was killing sales, did they have no choice was their cost forceing them to raise prices? What is your take on this.

[cosmic-spider-man]

I bring forth the supposition that there were other ID distributors who got in the 35 centers and simply shredded them without placing them out for their route drivers.

 

Do you think that they got both 30 & 35 centers of the same book at the same time and Shredded all the 35 cent ones? or that they just got the 35 cent ones and Shredded them all . Did you ever hear of this happening?

[joe_collector]

I offer up my recollections and comics wisdom brought on with the knowledge gleaned based on having "been there" in the behind the scenes building of the DM

 

And I do appreciate it, believe me. Some of this stuff is fascinating, and my comment about "my time" simply meant that you are going to view the collectibility of BA comics differently than me, just based on our own 12-year old "Golden Age".

[BLBcomics-migration]

I do not have time right now to address cosmic's latest queries - later today, as the answers will be more detailed later than if i did it now

 

but i can chime in here that i do know what you meant, Joe.

 

To me, the "Golden Age of Comics" is when the reader was 10-14 years old - after that date, one tends (though not always) to understand there is a larger world out there, that the comic book stories are not "real"

 

Heck, my personal "Golden Age" circa 10-13 years old being 1961-1963 involved Superman titles doing "Imaginary" stories at the same time doing "real" Superman stories - and we ate up the "Imaginary" ones as not being a "real" part of the Supes mythos -

 

I view the collectibilty of the 1970s era of code comics books with as much fascination as I do the 1960s, and 1950s, comic books i began reading, absorbing, hunting down back issues, etc - there were a lot of great comics being done in the 1970s. And i know most of the people who were doing the comics back then.

 

When a book such as Hulk 181 came out, i would have ordered some 900 copies of it to sell as new comics, with few left over with 182 came out - sales were that good

 

I read everything coming out, so did most of my employees.

 

But you are 100% correct, as i viewed the stories in the 1970s thru the eyeball prism of being a young adult, so, of course i wouldn't see them as "real" as a 12 year old tended to do

 

I just have never seen the fascination with trying to hunt down the price variants is all. I did not hten, i do not now, but, heck, i collect 1800s comic book stuff as well with as much ferver as any other era - and that is as small sub-set of the collecting community as any other sub-set can get