What do you love and what do you hate about pedigrees?

[Kevin76]

But, I strongly doubt that the Boston or the Oakland collection has any major keys. I'm pretty sure about the Oakland collection. Belcharra told me that the original owner of the Boston collection started buying 5-6 copies of every DC and Marvel in around 1965. The books in this collection are really nice no doubt but does if deserve being pedigreed if there are no major keys?

 

No Greg,They just have to be original owner books bought from the newstand when they came out,I have seen alot of the Boston books,there are like 4 copies of Cap 100 in high grade and such,alot of it is post 65/66? I was over Bechara's hose and he pull a box of boston books that were mostly DC's from around 66 and 67,grades were all over the map but mostly 9.0 and better.Most of the keys have already been graded and sold privatly,Bechara grades as much as he can. Kevin

[greggy]

But, I strongly doubt that the Boston or the Oakland collection has any major keys. I'm pretty sure about the Oakland collection. Belcharra told me that the original owner of the Boston collection started buying 5-6 copies of every DC and Marvel in around 1965. The books in this collection are really nice no doubt but does if deserve being pedigreed if there are no major keys?

 

No Greg,They just have to be original owner books bought from the newstand when they came out,I have seen alot of the Boston books,there are like 4 copies of Cap 100 in high grade and such,alot of it is post 65/66? I was over Bechara's hose and he pull a box of boston books that were mostly DC's from around 66 and 67,grades were all over the map but mostly 9.0 and better.Most of the keys have already been graded and sold privatly,Bechara grades as much as he can. Kevin

 

I understand that they need to be original owner books. But, I feel that there should be some criteria with CGC that they will only give the pedigree status to a Silver Age collection only if there are major keysin the collection. I agree that the best copies of the Boston collection are outstanding specimens but one has to draw the line somewhere. That being said, there have been worse collections given the pedigree status. However, as usual, the market is the true determinent regarding how accepted the pedigree is or not.

[sckao]

 

The Boston copies I saw at WonderCon were mostly DC with major (and multiple) spine stresses. Many were probably no better than CGC 8.5 at best.

 

 

[nearmint]

Does anyone out there have any books from the Charles Strong collection? He was an editor at Nedor, and kept a single copy of every book he edited. They're amazing copies, and were sold off in the early 90's before anyone even discussed whether they should be given pedigree status or not.

I have the Exciting #30, Fighting Yank #5, Thrilling #33 and #38. Gorgeous copies.

[Kevin76]

But, I strongly doubt that the Boston or the Oakland collection has any major keys. I'm pretty sure about the Oakland collection. Belcharra told me that the original owner of the Boston collection started buying 5-6 copies of every DC and Marvel in around 1965. The books in this collection are really nice no doubt but does if deserve being pedigreed if there are no major keys?

 

No Greg,They just have to be original owner books bought from the newstand when they came out,I have seen alot of the Boston books,there are like 4 copies of Cap 100 in high grade and such,alot of it is post 65/66? I was over Bechara's hose and he pull a box of boston books that were mostly DC's from around 66 and 67,grades were all over the map but mostly 9.0 and better.Most of the keys have already been graded and sold privatly,Bechara grades as much as he can. Kevin

 

I understand that they need to be original owner books. But, I feel that there should be some criteria with CGC that they will only give the pedigree status to a Silver Age collection only if there are major keysin the collection. I agree that the best copies of the Boston collection are outstanding specimens but one has to draw the line somewhere. That being said, there have been worse collections given the pedigree status. However, as usual, the market is the true determinent regarding how accepted the pedigree is or not.

 

With pedigree's there is a certain "thing" so to speak that makes it a pedigree,it could be the great page quailty or a store date stamp or even multiple copies of the collection that make up the pedigree.White Moutain's have great page quality and a date written in pen on the cover,Winnipeg's have the original owner's name on all of them. ect..that is usually what makes a cetain pedigree unqiue

[Aman619]

With pedigree's there is a certain "thing" so to speak that makes it a pedigree,it could be the great page quailty or a store date stamp or even multiple copies of the collection that make up the pedigree.White Moutain's have great page quality and a date written in pen on the cover,Winnipeg's have the original owner's name on all of them. ect..that is usually what makes a cetain pedigree unqiue

 

ya think???

 

Seems to me a Pedigree is a single owner collection put together off the newstands of exceptional quality and completeness for an era, title or publisher. The fact that many of these ALSO have specific didtinguishing marks is "interesting" and helps identify them once dispersed, but not a necessary condition of Pedigree status. IMO

[500Club]

Like I said before, more than likely, a pedigree book will have less natual aging than a non-pedigree book even in the same condition.

 

Yep, heard you the first time.....

 

I don't assume that a 9.6 is necessarily a better book. It is only better based on CGC criteria, which many people including myself don't always agree with.

 

Again, redundant. On this board, everyone is in agreement that you buy the book, not the grade.

 

Eye appeal can be evaluated on an individual basis. Maybe the pedigree is better, maybe not. Show me the books being compared. Page quality is also part of the grade assigned by CGC, and, while there are variances in judgement, I'll generally trust they won't confuse OW with W.

 

Once upon a time, the pedigree made mail-order and sight-unseen buying easier. With the advent of CGC, I stand by my statement that the importance of a pedigree is vastly diminished.

[BronzeBruce13]

With pedigree's there is a certain "thing" so to speak that makes it a pedigree,it could be the great page quailty or a store date stamp or even multiple copies of the collection that make up the pedigree.White Moutain's have great page quality and a date written in pen on the cover,Winnipeg's have the original owner's name on all of them. ect..that is usually what makes a cetain pedigree unqiue

 

ya think???

 

Seems to me a Pedigree is a single owner collection put together off the newstands of exceptional quality and completeness for an era, title or publisher. The fact that many of these ALSO have specific didtinguishing marks is "interesting" and helps identify them once dispersed, but not a necessary condition of Pedigree status. IMO

 

 

That makes sense... some don't really have anything unique about them. Was there something special about Western Penn? High PQ? It seems that page quality is usually pretty good, but maybe just an indicaton that the books were well-kept one way or another.

 

Kevin... the Winnipegs are also known for having very deep color... at least the Bronze Era copies. Also, the brothers (shop owners I heard?) stopped writing on the covers at some point. I think all the SA books had the name across the top, but they must have stopped somewhere around the 15¢ers. I have the Winnipeg Hulk 180 & 182 with no name (thank goodness). I also saw several others without... Defenders #1, etc.

 

 

[JiveTurkeyMoFo]

Kevin... the Winnipegs are also known for having very deep color... at least the Bronze Era copies. Also, the brothers (shop owners I heard?) stopped writing on the covers at some point. I think all the SA books had the name across the top, but they must have stopped somewhere around the 15¢ers.

 

Actually, they stopped earlier. My F.F. 28 is from the collection, and thankfully, it is scribble-free.

[BronzeBruce13]

I wonder if they just missed some?...don't most of the12 centers have the name?

[jbud73]

The Winnipeg Collection Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr don't even make me go there..............................

[TomG]

Was there a list or catalog that lists the books from the Charles Strong collection?

[nearmint]

Was there a list or catalog that lists the books from the Charles Strong collection?

 

Not that I know of. I can't even remember the name of the dealer I purchased them from, but he placed an ad for maybe 50 books from the collection in CBG. He sent along a bio of Charles Strong with the comics. The books are so nice, when I sent them to CGC, Steve Borock called me because he thought the Exciting 30 might be the Mile High. Now I wish I'd purchased more...

[shadroch]

The thing about books needing to be from a single owner who bought them at a newsstand bothers me. It is just too open to fraud. JGreene cannot get a pedigree, but the original owner could. If JGreene quietly sells them to a third party who then puts them on the market as newly discovered from Grandpa's climate controlled spare bedroom, their is much rejoicing and a pedigree is issued. And this makes sense?

[sfilosa]

One more point for those who don't believe there should be any difference in price between a pedigree and non-pedigree book.

 

Especially with the Golden-Age pedigrees, how many times do you actually have a choice of the same book, in the same grade, one a pedigree and one not, yet they both look identical? Probably NEVER.

 

So it is practically impossible to say the pedigree book is really getting an additional premium. Maybe its getting a premium value on a dealers website, but more than likely it just has better "eye appeal".

 

I probably would not attach a significant premium to the more current (and Silver-Age only) pedigrees. If I paid 10-20% more, can you really say I paid a premium for the pedigree or is that a premium because the book looks nicer than most.

 

 

 

 

 

[Shield]

I love pedigrees. For me....it is the whole providence/story angle. I like looking at a group of books and thinking that some guy built that collection. Let's face it..these collections weren't put together for CGC purposes or for flipping purposes or for any profit motive. They bought them cause they loved comics. The fact that they kept them in such pristine condition is lucky for us.

 

Every time I see a red date stamp on an SA book I think Bethlehem

 

 

Au contraire. The "Denver" pedigree is from a Lady in the late 1930's/1940's who bought ever "first issue" of the comic out of pure speculation.

 

The Pedigree - An In Depth Analysis

 

"DENVER - One of three pedigreed collections containing all #1 issues. In 1938 a woman residing in Denver, Colorado began buying various #1 issues and storing them, possibly for investment purposes. When she passed away her estate was auctioned off in Pennsylvania and a family named the Leis won the comics for $9,000. They subsequently called some national dealers to sell the collection. After flying out to inspect it, Jim Payette and Joe Verenault bought the collection, which totaled 151 #1 issues. Some of the big keys present included Marvel #1, Batman #1, and Captain America #1, and the overall grade was Near Mint. The collection was broken up and quickly sold at 2x guide.

IDENTIFICATION-No Denver books exhibit any markings upon which an identification can be made. But due to the rather small number of comics in the collection tracking the ownership of a Denver copy is, in most cases, quite easy. Any books in question can be compared with the original list.

 

DESIRABILITY-Because of possible investment purposes, most Denver copies are strong Near Mint, but the pages tend to be slightly yellowed due to the moist climate in which they were stored. Denver copies now sell for 2x to 3x guide.

"

 

Also, the "Windy City" Pedigree was put together in a similar fashion:

 

"WINDY CITY - The Windy City collection surfaced out of Chicago and was purchased by Gary Colobuono. The collection consisted of around 2000 #1 comics, and thousands of #1 magazines. Almost every single #1 comic that came out between 1937 and the Silver Age was in the Windy City collection.

In the early 1930's a mailman who made regular deliveries to a bus station newsstand told the owner he wanted to buy every new #1 magazine. After doing so for a couple of years the newsstand owner suggested he also try collecting #1 issues of comics as well. Following his suggestion, the mailman began purchasing the #1 comics each week. This went on for nearly 30 years until communication was lost between the two.

 

In the 1970's the newsstand owner's son, realizing the comics were worth money, attempted to locate the mailman by finding his name in an old yearbook.

 

Successful, the son soon found out that the mailman had passed away, but his sister had saved everything he possessed, including the comics. Unwilling to sell them, the sister instead settled on trading them bit by bit for common items, such as a new microwave. When the son obtained the first batch of comics he brought them to show a local dealer who had just opened his store that particular day in September 1978--Gary Colobuono. In that first batch was the following books: Superman #1, Batman #1, Captain America #1, Marvel #1, Detective #1, Silver Streak #1, All-Star #1, All-Winners #1, Wonder Woman #1, Daring Mystery #1, Mystic #1, Sub-Mariner #1 and a few others. As he looked over it Colobuono thought to himself "and this is only my first day...what can tomorrow bring?" The son wanted to wait until he had received all of the books from the woman before he sold the collection. This was not accomplished until 1986, eight years later! By this time a few other dealers had caught wind of the collection and were making offers. The son ended up taking bids and Colobuono won the collection for $85,000, to be paid in three installments. The first batch received by Colobuono included many of the most sought after #1's and made it's debut at the Chicago Con that year. The second batch yielded the key Fawcetts and was put up for sale at the San Diego con a month later. Finally, the lesser #1's were obtained a couple of weeks after that.

 

The sister eventually died years later, and about 1000 more #1 issues missing from Colobuono's purchase were present, but most were insignificant. The lot was auctioned off to an anonymous bidder.

 

There never was an Action #1 or New Fun #1 in the Windy City collection, although the Detective #1 is one of the best existing copies and one source claimed the Marvel #1 to be the third best existing copy.

 

IDENTIFICATION-Over half of the Windy City collection has the name "A. Wallace" written in pencil in the first letter of the title logo on the cover. There is speculation that the "A" stands for Anna, the name of the mailman's sister. For any copies that do not have the name written on the cover a master list exists for which comparisons can be made. As far as the extra 1000 or so comics found separately from Colobuono's purchase, very little is known, and no assumptions ca be made concerning grade or markings.

 

DESIRABILITY-The grades of Windy City copies range from Very Fine to Near Mint with an occasional Very Good or Fine. A few of them exhibit brown pages, although the majority are structurally perfect with full gloss and white pages. The initial distribution sold for around guide with high demand keys selling for 2x to 3x guide. As an interesting note, the Windy City Batman #1, graded a VF+, sold for a record price of $13,400 at the 1986 San Diego Con. Now Windy City copies fetch 1.5x to 2x guide and 3x to 5x guide for high demand keys.

"

 

[Darthdiesel]

For most of the three years I've been back in collecting, I haven't liked the concept of a pedigree much. I really don't like most subtle sales and marketing tactics, and until recently, I've looked at most pedigrees as pure salesmanship.

 

However, after seeing the incredibly consistent nice material in the Mile High and Western Penn collections, and after hearing the CGC census-topping tales of the Curator collection, I've become a bit more interested in the stories behind the pedigrees. If nothing else, they can be an interesting tale about other collectors like yourself who for whatever reason collected comics, and in most instances, kept them in a lot better shape than most other people around them did.

 

So...do you like or dislike pedigrees, and why?

 

I was of similar mind as you about pedigree = marketing gimmick until I looked more into it and actually owned some and checked them out for myself;

 

There are certain pedigrees I would like to own for myself (Western Penns) and others that I could care less about (Gaines? Pacific, Winnipeg) just based on the appearance/aesthetic appeal of the books.

 

But let's face it: anyone can have a pedigree in a couple of years. The requisites are pretty lax, in my opinion and as long as you stick to those rules, even my Modern hoard can be considered a pedigree come 2005...heck the books I bought in the 80's and 90s and stored in a closet wrapped up in newspaper, in air tight valults, along with a stick of moldy butter and are now earning 9.8 - 10.0s from CGC are IMO, the Darthdiesel Pedigree.

[Darthdiesel]

To me high grade is high grade... although the story behind certain pedigrees is sort of interesting, I can't say that it really makes all that much of a difference to me... it's sort of like saying, hey, this book is naturally better because it's part of the Winnepeg or Oakland collection... I don't think there should be "extra" value attached to them... the Church collection is kind of unique since it's part of the best examples of Golden age books.

 

Pedigrees were always thought of to be the best example of certain kinds of books, and what I think we've seen is that most books, especially Marvels, aren't going to have one grouping of books that are "the best"... there are 9.6s and 9.8s in several collections.

 

When some guy dies with a huge high grade collection are we going to have another "pedigree"... I don't think it really matters.

 

Just to piggyback on foolkiller's point, all pedigrees need a good BS hype story, and beleive me, I've got mine all set to go - It'll be Chuck-esque with a little of that Darth porno flair that we all know and greggy loves...

[Darthdiesel]

PROVENANCE

[fantastic_four]

But let's face it: anyone can have a pedigree in a couple of years. The requisites are pretty lax, in my opinion and as long as you stick to those rules, even my Modern hoard can be considered a pedigree come 2005...heck the books I bought in the 80's and 90s and stored in a closet wrapped up in newspaper, in air tight valults, along with a stick of moldy butter and are now earning 9.8 - 10.0s from CGC are IMO, the Darthdiesel Pedigree.

 

I doubt that the concept of a pedigree ever gets applied to any collection following the Bronze age, and to very few Bronze books. After the Mile High collection made national news due to the high dollar amount it brought in around the late 1970s, the cat got let out of the bag, more and more collector/investor types popped up, and a lot more books got saved in nice condition from 1980-on. Also, information about how to keep your collection nice with bags, boards, and boxes began to poliferate in the 1970s and was common knowledge to almost all collectors by the 1980s.

 

People were saying the similar things about the Silver Age and pedigrees a decade or so ago, so I could be wrong. Time will tell how many of these modern books survive in high grade into the future, but we all expect the numbers to be massive. People who kept their books in nice shape in the 40s, 50s, and 60s were very small, but the numbers in the 80s and 90s are huge.

 

It very mildly sucks to be a young comic book collector doesn't it. We're not unique like Edgar Church or the "Curator" were in their days.