CGC Resub Success Rate? (Remember to particpate in the Poll too) 1 1

[spidermanbeyond]

That is a nice bump Bruce. My question is did you see the book outside of the slab before resubmitting. Also did you resubmit it with the label. It seems like you would have to see the comic outside of the holder in order to be sure about resubmitting. I have never resubmitted but I have been tempted on some modern books I submitted that got a CGC 9.6 and thought had a chance at a 9.8 (eg. Amazing Spider-Man #300). Rickdogg did this and got the highly desired 9.8.

 

On the other side of the coin, I am sure there are cases where people resubmit and maybe get a lower grade. I am sure people aren't as willing or eager to share these stories.

[musicmeta]

I'm pretty sure I'm going to resubmit my Hulk 103 that I only got an 8.5 on.

I still think it's a 9.0/9.2 for sure. Wish me luck

[murph0]

I think the percentage poll will be a little skewed b/c a person who sent in just one book for resub and got a higher grade would be at 100 percent and skew the % that way.. same goes for if it came back the same, he'd have 0 percent.

Maybe you should do a "how many books have you had come back higher poll?"

 

Brian

[COI]

I think Matt (Notch_top) has a few interesting resub stories.

[garthgantu]

8.5 = VF+ ?

I don't see too many lower graded books, by I'm fairly positve an 8.5 exists.

 

"fairly positive" an 8.5 exists?

 

Why I oughtta...you young whippersnapper Bronze/Modern collectors and your fancy-shmancy "commonly and comparatively cheaply available in 9.8" supply of comics tick me off.

 

......I didn't know it was possible not to know that.

 

Okay, my bad... of course there's an 8.5 grade... I guess I forgot 'cause

1) I haven't seen many CGC 8.5s

2) I'm usually checking the boards from work

 

In that case, maybe the point is misguided... CGC does see a significant difference between 8.0 and 9.0, making the regrading of that book even more egregious...

[Arty]

Best resubmit success stories are from Golden Age books.

It's amazing how much simple pressing can improve books (VF+8.5-->NM+9.6).

I would never submit a book without pressing bumped corners or slight folds.

I wonder why there aren't any restorers advertising this kind of (CGC-legal/blue label) restoration service?

 

Btw..I only found out last week that there's a grade 1.8 between 1.5 and 2.0!

But it still makes me how anyone can forgot that there's an 8.5 grade?

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

That is a nice bump Bruce. My question is did you see the book outside of the slab before resubmitting. Also did you resubmit it with the label. It seems like you would have to see the comic outside of the holder in order to be sure about resubmitting. I have never resubmitted but I have been tempted on some modern books I submitted that got a CGC 9.6 and thought had a chance at a 9.8 (eg. Amazing Spider-Man #300). Rickdogg did this and got the highly desired 9.8.

 

On the other side of the coin, I am sure there are cases where people resubmit and maybe get a lower grade. I am sure people aren't as willing or eager to share these stories.

 

Hey SMB,

 

2 of them I certainly did... and did not like the grades and tried again. The last one, no I didn't, but I didn't need to. True, you can miss some defects through the slab, but I had the luxury of comparing it to (10) other 9.4's, (3) 9.6's and (2) 9.8's... so I had very little doubt before I called CGC for the graders notes that this book was slammed. I think they graded that book on a Monday morning when the toilets overflowed at CGC and the president stopped in and reamed everyone for reading the books and not grading quick enough!

 

BTW... When I called for the notes, guess what the Haspel said... something to the effect... "Hmmm, only one comment... minor abrasion along the top edge back cover". Upon examining it with a magnifying light... I could see nothing. The book is near perfection. I still feel its every bit a 9.8 as the other 2, but I'm happy I got half way there all things considered.

 

I understand your point though, how can you really see some of the defects that are hard to identify through the slab... like surface indentations, warping, etc. I guess my answer is... if you decide that you're going to take the book out of the slab to check if its indeed a resub candidate, you've already committed yourself to at least having to reslab it... right? So, why not just cut to the chase and send it in still in the slab if you feel based upon a visual examination and calling/considering the graders notes that it is? You've already taken the leap by cracking the slab.. you can't Wile E. Coyote your arse back to the cliff when your in the air.

[BronzeBruce13]

I think the percentage poll will be a little skewed b/c a person who sent in just one book for resub and got a higher grade would be at 100 percent and skew the % that way.. same goes for if it came back the same, he'd have 0 percent.

Maybe you should do a "how many books have you had come back higher poll?"

 

Brian

 

I know its not very scientific, but I said "2 book minimum" so that eliminates people who only resubbed 1 book... from the poll anyway.

 

People should post/itemize their results as I encouraged them to do and also register their experience in the poll... together, that gives us what we need.

[Kevin76]

I still think resubmitting a book is pretty ballsy,I can see trying to get away with it if it's bronze or modern,But if you have a 9.2 X-men 1 that you swear up and down that it's a 9.4 and your thinking about resubmiting it then...that for me would be a few sleepless days until it came back..nights for most people...

[clobberintime]

I think it is a bunch of baloney and a problem as far as CGC goes. CGC was supposed to eliminate the hazards of onlining buying so you could tell what you are really getting. It was also supposed to eliminate problems like senseless haggling with dealers whether the book was vf or nm. But because grading is so subjective even with the professionals at CGC, you get stuff like "it is a matter of opinion, we make mistakes,etc" So now you have different problems - you get undergraded so you have to pay another fee to get it regarded so you can try to sell the book and make more money. If I knew a book had been graded and was originally a lower grade but was regraded and came back higher, I would never pay the higher grade price for that back without carefully studying the book in person. Overall the resub game sounds like schemes by folks trying to make some easy money by buying cheap on "undergraded" books , then getting the grade to magically change so they can make a lot of money on an item that is the exact same. To me it is the same situation as the dealer who buys stuff on the very cheap by talking down condition to the seller and then who turns around and sells the books as a few levels higher than what he bought the book at. It smells. Especially since in the 9.0 to 9.8 range every little tick up means a lot of money - great potential for problems in my opinion. For more on this topic, see some of the threads about Heritage and their "funny" examples of resubs.

[BronzeBruce13]

I still think resubmitting a book is pretty ballsy,I can see trying to get away with it if it's bronze or modern,But if you have a 9.2 X-men 1 that you swear up and down that it's a 9.4 and your thinking about resubmiting it then...that for me would be a few sleepless days until it came back..nights for most people...

 

 

The era does not matter so much... the value of the book does. If you have a extremely valuable mega key... it would indeed take stones. However, If you are very confident in your grading and feel lucky, the reward can be significant.

[BronzeBruce13]

I think it is a bunch of baloney and a problem as far as CGC goes. CGC was supposed to eliminate the hazards of onlinine buying so you could tell what you are really getting. It was also supposed to eliminate problems like senseless haggling with dealers whether the book was vf or nm. But because grading is so subjective even with the professionals at CGC, you get stuff like "it is a matter of opinion, we make mistakes,etc" So now you have different problems - you get undergraded so you have to pay another fee to get it regarded so you can try to sell the book and make more money. If I knew a book had been graded and was originally a lower grade but was regraded and came back higher, I would never pay the higher grade price for that back without carefully studying the book in person...

 

Hey Rob,

 

I think maybe you're overstating the point (level of the problem) a little and expecting too much from the CGC service. You certainly make good points about how the service was intended to reduce problems between sellers and buyers, but I feel it still does for the most part. I think many serious CGC buyers and sellers have just evolved through the benefit of experience. We've simply learned some of the nuances of the CGC game after handling, scrutinizing, owning, buying and selling hundreds of slabs. And... yes, I agree, some newer problems (as you mentioned) have arisen, but I don't see them as being overly problematic. To me, some of what you're describing is beyond CGC's control. In the beginning of the CGC craze, the majority, including myself, we're more apt to buy just by the label a little too much... without relying on our own grading and eye appeal preferences... this made life very easy for the sellers in particular. I feel, it was inevitable that we would become more selective as we experienced that CGC grading was not an exact science. As such, additional posturing between the buyer and seller was bound to occur even if we did not see it back a ways. The whole "undergraded", "overgraded", "eye appeal", "page quality", "supply & demand", "hype influence", etc. considerations have now become more prevalent in private sales discussions or in the minds of smarter online buyers considering an item at auction. I feel it's just evolution, not something that CGC could control. Even if somehow CGC's grading was met with even more overall approval/agreement, I feel the these same arguments would still have developed... its part of the game. I don't mean to imply that its all a game, its not. As stated, many of us have just learned the nuances of the CGC market and try to increase our rate of satisfaction with our purchases. Even with this evolution, and new considerations, the CGC buying and selling experience has not declined for me... it just changed a bit. Maybe for you it has, as you are a busy professional and the extra time needed on the details could be a nuisance for you... I can see that.

 

By now, many of us have seen enough slabs to know there is some variation in the grades and that we may have to look at 2 or more before we find a book that is not only accurately graded "in our minds" (to our differing standards), but also meets our own personal "eye appeal" tastes. Sometime, we get books we feel got the nudge over the fence and we may try again. Other times we get a harshly graded book and we are very happy. Those "harshly graded" examples IMO... are the books that I sometimes consider for a resubmit... because I feel they are comparable to others that are a grade higher and may deserve it. I've only resubbed 3 books so far, so that tells you how often I feel very strongly about a book being more than a possible .2 off. Since other undergraded books (or strong examples) are keepers for me, I don't need to reslab them...for now. Maybe if I do upgrade and will sell the undercopy, then I may consider it for the higher payday IF I believe its really deserving of the next grade up. Other times I let it ride, knowing the buyer will be thrilled with the book.

 

I'm not sure about your personal rate of agreement with the CGC grade, but I'm pretty happy with it most of the time, all things considered. I think for a difficult task like grading comics, they are doing a very good job. Considering they have to grade on the spot and move on to another book all day, that makes it more impressive to me. I know sometimes I can stare at a book (mostly the "on the fence" examples) for a loooong while, and over the course of several days, a few more times, and still not feel strongly that the book really belongs one way or another by .2... and I'm very confident in my grading over 8.5. IMHO, some books are just "riding the line closer than others" between one grade or another and those are the tougher books where we'll see more disagreement and potential for a different grade on resubmit. How many times have you looked at a book and said "between a 9.2 and 9.4" or "9.4/9,6" ,etc.... well they have to make a hard decision... and that's NOT easy. If you ever get a chance, grade a stack of 20 HG books, record the grade.. put them out a sight for 6 months, come back and grade them again... the ones on the fence may change. This experiment may not work though if you have an incredible memory

 

 

btw.. i should have scans Sunday some time, I've been promised.

[Darthdiesel]

I think it is a bunch of baloney and a problem as far as CGC goes. CGC was supposed to eliminate the hazards of onlinine buying so you could tell what you are really getting. It was also supposed to eliminate problems like senseless haggling with dealers whether the book was vf or nm. But because grading is so subjective even with the professionals at CGC, you get stuff like "it is a matter of opinion, we make mistakes,etc" So now you have different problems - you get undergraded so you have to pay another fee to get it regarded so you can try to sell the book and make more money. If I knew a book had been graded and was originally a lower grade but was regraded and came back higher, I would never pay the higher grade price for that back without carefully studying the book in person. Overall the resub game sounds like schemes by folks trying to make some easy money by buying cheap on "undergraded" books , then getting the grade to magically change so they can make a lot of money on an item that is the exact same. To me it is the same situation as the dealer who buys stuff on the very cheap by talking down condition to the seller and then who turns around and sells the books as a few levels higher than what he bought the book at. It smells. Especially since in the 9.0 to 9.8 range every little tick up means a lot of money - great potential for problems in my opinion. For more on this topic, see some of the threads about Heritage and their "funny" examples of resubs.

 

Hey Rob,

 

I think maybe you're overstating the point (level of the problem) a little and expecting too much from the CGC service. You certainly make good points about how the service was intended to reduce problems between sellers and buyers, but I feel it still does for the most part. I think many serious CGC buyers and sellers have just evolved through the benefit of experience. We've simply learned some of the nuances of the CGC game after handling, scrutinizing, owning, buying and selling hundreds of slabs. And... yes, I agree, some newer problems (as you mentioned) have arisen, but I don't see them as being overly problematic. To me, some of what you're describing is beyond CGC's control. In the beginning of the CGC craze, the majority, including myself, we're more apt to buy just by the label a little too much... without relying on our own grading and eye appeal preferences... this made life very easy for the sellers in particular. I feel, it was inevitable that we would become more selective as we experienced that CGC grading was not an exact science. As such, additional posturing between the buyer and seller was bound to occur even if we did not see it back a ways. The whole "undergraded", "overgraded", "eye appeal", "page quality", "supply & demand", "hype influence", etc. considerations have now become more prevalent in private sales discussions or in the minds of smarter online buyers considering an item at auction. I feel it's just evolution, not something that CGC could control. Even if somehow CGC's grading was met with even more overall approval/agreement, I feel the these same arguments would still have developed... its part of the game. I don't mean to imply that its all a game, its not. As stated, many of us have just learned the nuances of the CGC market and try to increase our rate of satisfaction with our purchases. Even with this evolution, and new considerations, the CGC buying and selling experience has not declined for me... it just changed a bit. Maybe for you it has, as you are a busy professional and the extra time needed on the details could be a nuisance for you... I can see that.

 

By now, many of us have seen enough slabs to know there is some variation in the grades and that we may have to look at 2 or more before we find a book that is not only accurately graded "in our minds" (to our differing standards), but also meets our own personal "eye appeal" tastes. Sometime, we get books we feel got the nudge over the fence and we may try again. Other times we get a harshly graded book and we are very happy. Those "harshly graded" examples IMO... are the books that I sometimes consider for a resubmit... because I feel they are comparable to others that are a grade higher and may deserve it. I've only resubbed 3 books so far, so that tells you how often I feel very strongly about a book being more than a possible .2 off. Since other undergraded books (or strong examples) are keepers for me, I don't need to reslab them...for now. Maybe if I do upgrade and will sell the undercopy, then I may consider it for the higher payday IF I believe its really deserving of the next grade up. Other times I let it ride, knowing thr buyer will be thrilled with the book.

 

I'm not sure about your personal rate of agreement with the CGC grade, but I'm pretty happy with it most of the time, all things considered. I think for a difficult task like grading comics, they are doing a very good job. Considering they have to grade on the spot and move on to another book all day, that makes it more impressive to me. I know sometimes I can stare at a book (mostly the "on the fence" examples) for a loooong while, and over the course of several days, a few more times, and still not feel strongly that the book really belongs one way or another by .2... and I'm very confident in my grading over 8.5. IMHO, some books are just "riding the line closer than others" between one grade or another and those are the tougher books where we'll see more disagreement and potential for a different grade on resubmit. How many times have you looked at a book and said "between a 9.2 and 9.4" or "9.4/9,6" ,etc.... well they have to make a hard decision... and that's NOT easy. If you ever get a chance, grade a stack of 20 HG books, record the grade.. put them out a sight for 6 months, come back and grade them again... the ones on the fence may change. This experiment may not work though if you have an incredible memory

 

 

btw.. i should have scans Sunday some time, I've been promised.

 

 

Actually I thought Rob was right on with his comments. The whole resubmitting thing does undermine what CGc set out to establish in the first place. It was for, IMO, a third party grading opinion, which was to be universally accepted by both buyer and seller. Resubmitting, as I see it, just takes that opinion you paid for an throws it out the window based on your own grading. Might as well have saved yourself the money and sold it raw in the first place. The only positive thing that can be said for resubmitting is the potential higher profit to be had in selling a resub with a notch-higher grade. This phenomena CGC has had no direct influence on and can be blamed on the pure capitalistic basis of the comic market. All sellers are out to make a buck, as much profit as they can so, on big money books, the potential gain outweighs the risks in resubbing a book. Honestly would anyone selling a book initially graded 9.8, notices that the looseness of the book in the well has caused sliding (blunting) damage to 2 corners and an edge, resubmit the book to get the label grade to match the now 9.2 in the case? I think not...

 

Resubmitting is part of the game. If you can somehow clean and press your book in a way that CGC will bless it with a blue label and move the grade up from an 8.5 up to a 9.2 then more power to you. Everyone complains about Heritage doing it. What's the difference between that and a small time seller/dealer having a good eye for undergraded books posted on eBay and buying them to "fix up" (not inferring blatant resto here, maybe some pressing and removal of early spinal roll) and get reslabbed for a notch higher grade? There is none...before condemning Heritage for this practice, some folks should take a long hard look in the mirror...

[BronzeBruce13]

...Overall the resub game sounds like schemes by folks trying to make some easy money by buying cheap on "undergraded" books, then getting the grade to magically change so they can make a lot of money on an item that is the exact same. To me it is the same situation as the dealer who buys stuff on the very cheap by talking down condition to the seller and then who turns around and sells the books as a few levels higher than what he bought the book at. It smells. Especially since in the 9.0 to 9.8 range every little tick up means a lot of money - great potential for problems in my opinion. For more on this topic, see some of the threads about Heritage and their "funny" examples of resubs.

 

Maybe for some, and its obvious that many don't like what Heritage is doing.

I don't think the whole "resub game" falls in the same category though. Many are just confident or hopeful that their CGC book is better than what grade it was given initially. Whether for the personal satisfaction of "being right" and having a better book, or for profit... its more than a Heritage thing for sure... and merely a solution for some when they disagree with CGC.

 

I also don't believe in the "magically upgraded book theory" that suggests impropriety on CGC's part. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and to be suspicious, but there has been enough revelation about books that can be "pressed", "wonder-breaded" and others where some minor defects are reversible with the careful application of reverse pressure. These techniques are not detectable (or leave a trace), nor are considered restoration by CGC as I understand. That is what is happening in those cases IMO, and I've looked into and learned a little bit about this to satisfy my own concerns and curiosity. My only remaining question has to do with "pencil removal" and how that is not detectable? These techniques and whether we should be entitled to know about them being performed... if they were detected (but not considered restoration) will be hashed out further in time if it becomes a big enough issue, and as the whole graded comic market evolves further.

 

The influences the new grading companies and how they view restoration, restoration removal, legal techniques, etc. will also be a factor IF any of these companies earn respect.

 

 

[BronzeBruce13]

Actually I thought Rob was right on with his comments. The whole resubmitting thing does undermine what CGc set out to establish in the first place. It was for, IMO, a third party grading opinion, which was to be universally accepted by both buyer and seller. Resubmitting, as I see it, just takes that opinion you paid for an throws it out the window based on your own grading. Might as well have saved yourself the money and sold it raw in the first place.

 

Hey Carl,

 

I hear you, but to expect the CGC grade to be universally accepted 100% of the time was an unrealistic goal IMO if that was the expectation... which I doubt. I'm no expert in other graded collectibles, but regrading cards/coins was a common practice (maybe even more common compared to comics thus far) before CGC arrived, so I doubt they expected universal acceptance. It only makes sense to me that there is an option to challenge CGC on their given grade* if you disagree strongly... regardless of your motivation. I don't know for a fact, but what I do know makes me feel that the "resub rate" is not at a staggering level that compromises CGC's reputation or undermines what they've established thus far.

 

When you consider the value of some of the bigger books and the fact that there clearly is a possibility for a different "CGC opinion" on a different day, particularly on books that are truly "on the line" between grades (as best as we can say)... I think expecting people to stand pat with the given CGC grade in all cases very is also unrealistic.

 

I also don't agree when you suggest that one should have sold a book raw if he will consider resubmitting the book if it does not fetch the anticipated grade. Whether or not you should have saved your money depends on the success or failure of the resubmit as I see it. Its a gamble.

 

*At this moment, I'm talking about straight resubmits without any techniques being performed to increase the chances of a higher grade. Resubbing with potential improvement in mind is a different subject to me.

 

 

 

The only positive thing that can be said for resubmitting is the potential higher profit to be had in selling a resub with a notch-higher grade. This phenomena CGC has had no direct influence on and can be blamed on the pure capitalistic basis of the comic market. All sellers are out to make a buck, as much profit as they can so, on big money books, the potential gain outweighs the risks in resubbing a book.

 

Well, that's one opinion... not fact. I feel you may be right that much of the"resub game" is about money, but I disagree that it all is. When I resubmitted my Hulk 181 9.2 long ago (that I bought raw) and felt for sure was a solid 9.4... I resubmitted the harsh 9.2 primarily because I felt I was right and that the book deserved more. I was not even thinking of resale at that point because I thought a 9.4 would be my permanent "keeper" and that I'd never be able to afford a 9.6 (kind of funny now). Point is, some resubmit because they feel the book deserved something else and want to see if they are right the 2nd time. I was 2 out of 3 times, and I don't feel that there was anything wrong with having the confidence in my grading and asking for a "grading appeal" of sorts.

 

I would agree though that there is a line somewhere. If resubmitting became so commonplace that almost everyone resubbed at an incredible rate... the need for, and confidence in professional grading would be seriously diminished... especially if the grade changed a high percentage of the time. I don't feel either of those scenarios are happening, or likely to.

 

 

Honestly would anyone selling a book initially graded 9.8, notices that the looseness of the book in the well has caused sliding (blunting) damage to 2 corners and an edge, resubmit the book to get the label grade to match the now 9.2 in the case? I think not...

 

An interesting point, more of a moral issue, but not really what I was talking about. I think this may have been discussed at some point? CGC's role in creating a safe environment for the comic is an important issue. I think they take some responsibility with this because now when you reholder a book that has a damaged slab OR if they determine that damage has occurred, even if the slab is not damaged.. they reserve the right to regrade the book. Any owner of a book that has been "clearly" damaged (not possibly) and resubmits it for a re-evaluation, to be fair to the potential buyer would be a candidate for sainthood, especially of it was a valuable book. That would be one major character assessing test for anyone if they were faced with that dilemma.

 

 

 

Resubmitting is part of the game. If you can somehow clean and press your book in a way that CGC will bless it with a blue label and move the grade up from an 8.5 up to a 9.2 then more power to you. Everyone complains about Heritage doing it. What's the difference between that and a small time seller/dealer having a good eye for undergraded books posted on eBay and buying them to "fix up" (not inferring blatant resto here, maybe some pressing and removal of early spinal roll) and get reslabbed for a notch higher grade? There is none...before condemning Heritage for this practice, some folks should take a long hard look in the mirror...

 

No difference... Heritage is just more visible. Anyone doing it, clearly should not put down others for the same. However, with Heritage, I recall some arguments being raised as to what responsibility they have to their consignors to report these type candidates. Maybe that is where some of the backlash is coming from?

 

[fantastic_four]

Well, that's one opinion... not fact. I feel you may be right that much of the"resub game" is about money, but I disagree that it all is. When I resubmitted my Hulk 181 9.2 long ago (that I bought raw) and felt for sure was a solid 9.4... I resubmitted the harsh 9.2 primarily because I felt I was right and that the book deserved more. I was not even thinking of resale at that point because I thought a 9.4 would be my permanent "keeper" and that I'd never be able to afford a 9.6 (kind of funny now). Point is, some resubmit because they feel the book deserved something else and want to see if they are right the 2nd time. I was 2 out of 3 times, and I don't feel that there was anything wrong with having the confidence in my grading and asking for a "grading appeal" of sorts.

 

Do you still own any of those 3 books you resubmitted? If not, it sounds like you're fooling yourself a little. The vast majority of the time, people resubmit to increase the value of the book. If you're gonna keep it, it's the same book no matter what the label says.

 

As a pure collector who has very few books I want to sell, the restoration check matters, but the number on the label doesn't matter much. I have a few 9.0s I bet would get 9.2 or 9.4 upon resubmission, but since I'm keeping them, no need to. If I ever get better copies I might resubmit, but until then, why would I? That's where most of the resubmission thinking comes even amongst collectors; they resubmit on books they think they're gonna keep to maximize profit in case they decide to flip or trade once they get a better copy.

 

If you're confident in your grading, then there's no reason to resubmit.

[murph0]

It matters to me, in a non-monetary manner. If I end up submitting a book and getting a 9.0 or 9.2, and I think they're off.. I resubmit.. for the sole purpose of the fact that I'm looking for NM books. If it comes back a 9.4 as I originally thought, than all is well and good. If it doesn't then it means I'm probably wrong and then I'll sell the book and get a replacement.

 

Brian

[Darthdiesel]

I don't know for a fact, but what I do know makes me feel that the "resub rate" is not at a staggering level that compromises CGC's reputation or undermines what they've established thus far.

 

The resubmission rate itself as it stands is not a huge factor in maintaining CGC's "mission"; it is the value and condition of the books that are being resubmitted that bring questions of impropriety into play. Honestly, I'm not going to send in an Origin 1 CGC 9.9 just because I think it looks EXACTLY like my CGC 10.0 - no matter how resolutely I feel about my grading opinion being correct.

 

When you consider the value of some of the bigger books and the fact that there clearly is a possibility for a different "CGC opinion" on a different day, particularly on books that are truly "on the line" between grades (as best as we can say)... I think expecting people to stand pat with the given CGC grade in all cases very unrealistic.

 

Exactly what I was alluding to above. It may be an unrealistic expectation, but this is the case due to the different values placed on books, driving folks to seek the higher grade whether it is because it is just for higher dollar potential or just to be right. My main problem with this is that CGC has deemed this resubmission 9.6 a lower grade at one point, if you sell this to me without letting me know that it used to be a 9.4, I would probably have qualms that I paid you more that I would have knowing that it was a 9.4 prior to resubmission. There is too much that can happen with resubmissions, but the question of whether there was some alteration or "friendly deal" to earn that higher grade on the resubmission will always be in the back of my mind. If you don't tell me, ignorance is bliss, but this would totally discount the idea of full disclosure.

 

I also don't agree when you suggest that one should have sold a book raw if he will consider resubmitting the book if it does not fetch the anticipated grade. Whether or not you should have saved your money depends on the success or failure of the resubmit as I see it. Its a gamble.

 

A misrepresented raw high grade will sell for more than an accurately graded mid or low grade any day...everyone loves that gamble - you see it on eBay every day - folks plopping down mega multiples of NM OS guide on an ASM 129 raw that some joker with 2 rating feedback with a blurry picture is calling NM/MT - all because folk think they'll get a bargain on the next CGC 9.8 ASM 129...HA!

 

You are absolutely right...it's a gamble and the evaluation of your business savvy is based on the outcome of the deal.

 

*At this moment, I'm talking about straight resubmits without any techniques being performed to increase the chances of a higher grade. Resubbing with potential improvement in mind is a different subject to me.

 

I get your point. Technically all resubmission is in the hopes of a higher grade, so there is "potential improvement" built into every resubmission. I just lump it all together, while you make the distinction where undetectable restoration is concerned.

 

Well, that's one opinion... not fact. I feel you may be right that much of the"resub game" is about money, but I disagree that it all is. When I resubmitted my Hulk 181 9.2 long ago (that I bought raw) and felt for sure was a solid 9.4... I resubmitted the harsh 9.2 primarily because I felt I was right and that the book deserved more. I was not even thinking of resale at that point because I thought a 9.4 would be my permanent "keeper" and that I'd never be able to afford a 9.6 (kind of funny now). Point is, some resubmit because they feel the book deserved something else and want to see if they are right the 2nd time. I was 2 out of 3 times, and I don't feel that there was anything wrong with having the confidence in my grading and asking for a "grading appeal" of sorts.

 

Bruce - in the end of your scenario above, did you resell the book? Eventually it all boils down to the $$$cha-ching$$$ It may have started out with you wanting validation that your grading was on par with or better than CGC's, but in the end, once you sell it off as part of your lower grade books when you upgrade, if you don't tell the person you sell it to, that the 9.4 181 used to be a 9.2, it may bother the collector who plans on holding onto it for a while, more than to a flipper who sells it when the next movie hype peak hits. I'm not saying there was anything wrong with what you intended: validation from a recognized authority builds confidence in your own capabilities. But to me, a $15 - $110 fee is way too much to pay for a "second opinion" When the book comes back at a higher grade, don't you feel cheated by CGC? Why didn't they grade it that higher grade in the first place? You had to pay 2x to get the same grade you thought it was from the start? Aren't CGC experts? Did they undercook it the first time, knowing I'm the type of person who would resubmit? Why do I have to bear the consequence (double payment) of their graders not getting it right the first time? If I was a big time submitter, would they have made extra sure that they graded it accurately first time around? All these questions would pop in my head before I "resubmitted" and at the end of the day, I'll always decide that it's just not worth it.... but that's just me.

 

 

 

An interesting point, more of a moral issue, but not really what I was talking about. I think this may have been discussed at some point? CGC's role in creating a safe environment for the comic is an important issue. I think they take some responsibility with this because now when you reholder a book that has a damaged slab OR if they determine that damage has occurred, even if the slab is not damaged.. they reserve the right to regrade the book. Any owner of a book that has been "clearly" damaged (not possibly) and resubmits it for a re-evaluation, to be fair to the potential buyer would be a candidate for sainthood, especially of it was a valuable book. That would be one major character assessing test for anyone if they were faced with that dilemma.

 

Well that's true...when all is said and done in this business, all morals - OUT THE WINDOW! So don't expect my scenario to ever happen. I can tell you that if I won't resubmit because I think paying twice to get the right grade

is ridiculous, you can bet I won't be resubmitting to get the book downgraded to be fair to the buyer

 

 

No difference... Heritage is just more visible. Anyone doing it, clearly should not put down others for the same. However, with Heritage, I recall some arguments being raised as to what responsibility they have to their consignors to report these type candidates. Maybe that is where some of the backlash is coming from?

 

The backlash is primarily due to buying into the conspiracy that it is Heritage employees winning auctions in the end and not just loyal consignors/customers of Heritage doing the same thing that we forumites do on eBay on a daily basis: searching for undercooked items to flip for higher profit with a higher grade on the label.

[BronzeBruce13]

Do you still own any of those 3 books you resubmitted? If not, it sounds like you're not fooling yourself a little. The vast majority of the time, people resubmit to increase the value of the book. If you're gonna keep it, it's the same book no matter what the label says.

 

As a pure collector who has very few books I want to sell, the restoration check matters, but the number on the label doesn't matter much. I have a few 9.0s I bet would get 9.2 or 9.4 upon resubmission, but since I'm keeping them, no need to. If I ever get better copies I might resubmit, but until then, why would I? If you're confident in your grading, then there's no reason to resubmit.

 

for the record.. I added the below to my previous post before I saw your post...

 

I would agree though that there is a line somewhere. If resubmitting became so commonplace that almost everyone resubbed at an incredible rate... the need for, and confidence in professional grading would be seriously diminished... especially if the grade changed a high percentage of the time. I don't feel either of those scenarios are happening, or likely to.

 

......................

 

I sorta knew you were gonna show up this thread sooner or later

 

To answer your probing questions ...I have sold the previous two as I upgraded, I just got the 3rd in. You are certainly entitled to think what you like and I take no offense as we are friends, but I think your view on it is overly simplistic. Similarly, as you don't relate to or understand other collecting preferences and positions I have that we've discussed (unrelated to values)... I don't expect you to relate to, or understand all of my motivations and feelings either when potential value is a consideration. I'm not saying I was unaware of value difference, I'm saying it was NOT the primary motivation of my resubmits. Accept or reject as you please.

 

Not that I think there is anything wrong if that was my primary motivation, nor do I feel that I'm special because it wasn't... its just the way it is. Seeing a 9.2 on the label when I thought it should say 9.4 was irritating. You are overlooking the fact that people have different levels of obsession or neurosis My wanting my label to say 9.4 may have been something closer to obsessive compulsion than anything else. I can be very driven at times.

 

As you know, I was MUCH more a buyer, and sold very little in my early CGC collecting... when I obtained the first 2 books that were resubmitted. I only became a seller (aside from some "upgrading as I go" sales) out of necessity when the buying funds dried up. Anyway, I felt strongly that the books were "wronged" so to speak. At that point 9.4's were what I was shooting for on both books, so I was trying to undue what I felt was a "comic grading injustice". Was I aware they would be worth more in higher grade?..well yeah!... but I wanted 9.4's and thought I had them and wanted them fixed.

 

As for the 181 in particular, even though I did mange to try an buy a 9.6 181 not long after (and was ripped), my motivation was primarily for the book to get what I felt it deserved... and I was right (but wrong on the 1st 180). The fact that I eventually sold that book does not change what my motivations were at the time.

 

You may have the luxury of having all the cash you need to buy what you like and be a "pure collector". I had to engage in selling eventually to obtain that capital to continue to buy the HG books I wanted. If you had to do the same than I guess you would have to re-evaluate how to label yourself. Further, just because you are content to have a book in the grade you are happy with... even though the label may say differently, does not mean everyone else has a similar psychological make-up. I'm admittedly a bit more obsessed/driven than most and also have some "retentive" characteristics. When you see a 9.2, that's a 9.4 in your collection you may say to yourself... "What a nice book, CGC dropped the ball, but I know better, better get back to shootin' squirrels"... and I said to myself... "That sweet book was ripped! I know its a 9.4... that damn 9.2 label is getting on my nerves and I can't stand knowing its wrong!, so I'll have get another one or get it fixed". My collecting goals and preferences have evolved and changed a bit since then and I do save lower graded books over higher ones on occasion now. The Hulk 180 9.4 that I saved is a perfect example. I knew it was better and would not sell it until I got the 9.6. That resubmit was also to right a perceived wrong IMO, but I absolutely had resale in mind on that one... and the resubmit had more to do with money in this case by far over the previous two.

 

I have to mow the lawn now... I tire of validating my existence in the comic world

[Darthdiesel]

I have to mow the lawn now... I tire of validating my existence in the comic world

 

BB - you are singlehandedly bringing down the hobby as we know it and highly accelerating the CGC market "adjustment" with your irresponsible use of "resubmissions". Now go think about that while you manicure your shrubbery...