Comic Monthly 1 Great book and "unrestored"-- but crayoned. Oh the insanity!.

[jbcomicbox]

for what it is worth here is my copy..just happy to have one....i also believe coloring is common in early Mickey Mouse books as well as filling out puzzles......

 

[The Black Hand ®]

I will add one more note.

 

That is an unquestionably rare and important book, ridiculously undervalued in the guide.

 

It should go for big bucks EVEN IF some of the markings were to be judged now -- or by some insane but insistent person in the future -- as restoration.

 

 

I see a book that some little kid took a crayon and did some coloring. No restoration, no rice paper, no bleaching, no varnish, no glue, no inking. Some little kid did some coloring. Hardly detracts from the value.

[bluechip]

I will say this...

Whether it be crayon or colortouch[Monitarily speaking only] they should both deter to the value of the book significantly.Whether intentional or not.

 

I c ould NOT agree MORE.

 

I care not what the intention was. I care what the RESULT is.

 

If it's restoration that makes the book appear better, I want to know what it looked like before so I know what the book really is, or was.

 

And if it's a whole lot of writing versus a tiny dot of writing, I am not going to throw rational though out the window and say the one with a whole lot of writing is worth twice as much just because the intention was the make the book look bad.

[bluechip]

BTW,that;s a nice looking copy, too. Up until a few years ago, I bought that book each and every time I saw it regardless of price, and over two decades that meant I bought it... twice. And to this day those two are the only ones I've ever seen in person.

[showcase4]

Ok Bluechip...here you have one of the 8 panels with light crayon, exactly as my ad describes.

 

Taking the fact that it is my book out of the debate, I will bet you dollars to donughts that this books crayon will still allow it to sell for 90-95% of its "non-crayon" value, but if it had any restoration, it would sell for no more than 40-50% of "unrestored" value.

 

 

And if so, that is absurd. people make it their mission to destroy the value of others books.

I would not go out of my way -- and spend time trying to convince others not to buy it.

 

Bob, I had to wait untill this morning to reply to this, because I needed some "quality time" to address these points.

1st of all, I would like to say to you ! You are obviously a smart guy, but I see 2 different things you are "hung up" on that come up repeatedly in your posts, and they are very frustrating to me ( again, because I know you are smart ..I can tell by the way you use your scentence structure...can't fake that )

 

1. I don't know if you are sitting on the world's largest privately owned collection of restored books, but it seems like you might be, as you are obviously very bitter that restored books are not appreciating the way you think/hoped they would. The market decides what's hot and what's not, and it us up to us as collectors to change with it, and not cry in our soup because it's not doing what we thought it should. If you REALLY think that some kid who took a crayon 40 years ago to the inside of a few panels is the same as me applying glue to the spine of a book to seal a small tear, then there may be little hope for you............those 2 examples only have 1 thing in common....they are alterations to the original book. As far as the marketplace is concerned though, those 2 alterations are treated completely differently from a value standpoint, desirability standpoint, and a level of alteration standpoint. CAN YOU SEE THE DIFFERENCE TO THE MARKETLPLACE, AND REALIZE THEY ARE 2 COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ANIMALS?

 

 

2. repeat after me...'THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY TO DEVALUE OTHER PEOPLES COMIC BOOKS, THERE IS NO CONSPIRACY TO DEVALUE OTHER PEOPLES COMIC BOOKS ".........my G-D man, get a grip! Just because some people do not collect restored books....like me, does not mean I am part of a secret club who's sole mission is to reduce restored books values around the world over the next 5 years! I don't know what happened to you that has triggered this paranoia of people out to destroy the value and reputation of your All American 16 because it has some color touch, but it's just not happening! None of us have an agenda to destroy others collections here.......we are all in this together...I want everyone to propser and be happy

 

I have reason to believe this didn't magically change your stance on these 2 beliefs of yours, but I have said my peace, and feel better that I have tried to help you (even thought you didn't ask)

[bluechip]

 

Showcase,

 

I am not sitting on the largest reservoir of restored books. I have very few and the ones I have I restored after purchasing low grade because I wanted to know just what the book looked like before.

 

No matter how many little head bumping avatars you put in a post, it doesn't change the fact it's fundamentally absurd to say that a silver dollar's worth of crayon marks on eight pages should only decrease a books' value by five to ten percent, but a tiny speck of crayon or other marker that fills in a missing dot of color in a black field should lower the value by fifty to sixty percent.

 

You call it "market," but you spend a lot of time trying to badger people into believing it should be so. And it's worth noting that, between the two different books, the one you are saying should be worth so much more despite having far greater visual damage is also the same one you are trying to sell.

 

What is it you don't seem to get about the difference between touting your own books and making such a concerted, relentless effort as you have been to damage the value of other people's books.

 

IYou say you're not interested in restored books. You are more interested in them than anybody I've ever encountered. You are so interested you are apparently willing to spend much time and effort ruining their value.

 

Yet you don't own any and would never buy any.

 

You now know that I do not defend them because I have many restored books (just a few) but that leaves the question why you -- who have NONE and are planning tro buy non, are so obsessed with getting others to shun them.

 

You call it the "market"but your actions shout very loudly that you want to manipulate the market to the detriment of others

 

My interest is not simply in restored books but in SANITY. The more insane people appear in this hobby, the less likely outside iinvestors will want in.

 

And in no other field of collecting or investing is there any comparable nonsense view that the amount of damage means far less than how it occured or what somebody was thinking when it occured.

 

Try explaining that to some new potential collector investor and it will make absolutely no sense to them.

 

If anything, some will see it only as an aberration they can use to buy things low and sell them high when stupid money chases easily obtainable high grade unrestored books.

 

The rest are nore likely to throw up their hands and say, "these people are nuts."

 

So, to me, it is not just about restored books, but about keeping the entire hobby/industry from looking foolish. Or at least more foolish.

 

So, that's my reason.

 

What -- WHAT is yours?

 

If you don't buy restored books and just aren't interested in them? Why spend so G-damn much time slamming them?

 

There are many things I am not interested in buying. And you may own some of them. But I would NOT spend time and effort trying to convince people that you should lose money.

 

WHY -- do you spend the timeyou do attacking the value of things you are supposedly not interested in?

 

 

 

Random avatars to follow

[showcase4]

making such a concerted, relentless effort as you have been to damage the value of other people's books.

you are apparently willing to spend much time and effort ruining their value.

 

Yet you don't own any and would never buy any.

 

so obsessed with getting others to shun them.

Why spend so G-damn much time slamming them?

 

WHY -- do you spend the timeyou do attacking the value of things you are supposedly not interested in?

 

Allrighty then....for the 1st time on the boards, I am officially speechless.

good luck to you Bob with that " I'm out to destroy the world" thinking

[bluechip]

That is a mischaracterization of what I wrote.

 

I did not say you were "out to destroy the world." I ased why you spend so much time attacking the value of things you say you are not interested in.

 

If you were to answer that you're "out to destroy the world," I would be taken aback. It's not the answer I'm expecting.

 

But you still haven't answered. I really am curious to know.

[showcase4]

I aksed why you spend so much time attacking the value of things you say you are not interested in.

But you still haven't answered. I really am curious to know.

 

Ok Bob...here's your answer. The only place I'm attacking the value of things I am not interested in is in your own mind. To the rest of the Boards, I am just another collector who does not buy restored books. For whatever reason, any anti-restoration comments thrown your way seem to get magnified when they reach you. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....I do not have an agenda ..I do not want my words or opinions to hurt the value of someone elses books..that is the most ridiculous thing you could ever accuse me of.

 

Even though I don't buy restored books, I will give my opinion if asked, as I did in the "hatred of restoration" thread....is that OK with you? Am I allowed to use my own mind and express my differing opinions, or should I check with you 1st so you can sensor it?

[jbcomicbox]

Guys---Whadda think? Time to go neutrals corners and bring this thread to an end.....? Jon

[showcase4]

Guys---Whadda think? Time to go neutrals corners and bring this thread to an end.....? Jon

 

It never fails to amaze me how the subject of restoration sparks so much energy and emotion. Out of all things that can be and are discussed: grading, era's, keys, values, auctions, choices of various books, pedigree's, slabbing, forecasting, history....nothing quite stirs things up like good old fashion resto !!

[bluechip]

 

 

Yes, you must always check first with me.

 

 

Of course not. But then, I'm responding as if my statements were characterized correctly. You didn't, I'm afraid. You added words and opinions to my statement, and then expressed indignation at words that were never said.

 

As I said, it's one thing to tout your own books or, when asked, to say you don't buy restored books. It is another to say the "market" considers every restored book a "turd" (your words) regardless of how little was done, and to do it so often and so insistently.

 

If I see a peson selling a house, I expect him to talk it up. And if somebody asks you about a house in a different area, it's okay to say what you feel even if it's determinatl. It's another thing to stand outside somebody else's house and try to convince potential buyers to go away because the house is a "turd" and everybody else thinks that way )even if they don't) and that they should shun all houses in the neighborgood.

 

Whenever you see somebody doing that, it's okay (and wise) to assume they have an agenda.

 

I know you'll say it's not equivalent. But it illustrates the difference between tputing your own and slamming your neighrbor's.

 

But I suspect you'd have a problem if I made an effort to tell potential buyers of your books that anything with crayon marks is a "turd" and that the market says it could never be worth more than X percent.

[bluechip]

Guys---Whadda think? Time to go neutrals corners and bring this thread to an end.....? Jon

 

 

Appreciate the thought.

 

If it were a revenue-neutral topic I would have abstained from it long ago.

 

But the fact is that when people make a concerted effort to drive down the value of something and "advise" people not to pay a good price for it, that potentially costs me money.

 

What's hurt by the anti-resto rants is not just restored books but low grade books, which are the entry level books for potential new investors. Especially when anti-resto is coupled with the overstreet guide consistently under-reporting sales on many books, and especially on low grade super-key issues.

 

I hate having to argue even once what should be common sense in the first place, let alone having to argue it again.

 

When the "market" can be manipulated by small numbers of people masquerading as larger numbers, then you either need tio respond more often yourself or get out of the "market" entirely and allow free rein to misinformation. .

[bluechip]

Added Revenue note:

 

 

 

Im sure it will be pointed out to me, as it has in the past, that if I understand how the market is being manipulated as it is, I can use that by playing along with it, slabbing books that are high grade and unrestored and selling them at absurd profits to dumb money. You know, the people who walk up to the booths at conventions and they've heard only three things. Comic books are valuable; condition is everytiing; and you should not buy restored books.

 

Those people, primed by misleading information, are, I know, can be a source of much revenue.

 

But bilking people that way is not something I really want to do.

 

Comics are going up in value and recognition, and the rare and important stuff has yet to reach the levels achieved by other collectibles. I think that rare and culturally significant comic collectibles have a lot of room to grow, but they are being adversely affected by misinformation skewing buyers to the unrare and insignificant.

[Sal]

for what it is worth here is my copy..just happy to have one....i also believe coloring is common in early Mickey Mouse books as well as filling out puzzles......

 

 

if Geppi ever needs any travelling displays for his museum, he'd be a fool not to contact you first, Mr. Berk.

 

unreal.

 

[BLBcomics-migration]

Showcase-4 wrote in his description on ebay:

 

"...VG 4.0 unrestored with cream pages, a VERY NICE copy considering that 99% of all Comic Monthly issues, when they surface at all, are typically in Good 2.0 or worse condition with major spine splits and/or detached covers due to their EXTREMELY thin soft covers. This offered copy has its cover firmly attached at both staples, and is 100% complete and unrestored. Condition flaws include a few interior panels( approx. 8) lighlty colored in with crayon on just part of the art work ( not the entire panel ), moderate spine wear, and light overall general wear. Tiny corner chip bottom right front cover, very minor paper loss at the top of the spine, lower spine very minor split, and that's about it. Book is relatively flat and tight, with rust free staples!... "

 

Decent copy with 8 pages having some of the panels lightly colored, is what Steve wrote. Lightly is a key word. Not on entire panel(s) is the operative key phrase.

 

So, did i misread you post?, or were you putting this copy down, or making a larger commentary on "restoration" in general? I have no idea what the spoon reference means.

 

Having had quite a few copies of various COMIC MONTHLY come thru my hands, one first notices that the spines are usually shot, split - the paper being so thin on this series that any COMIC MONTHLY holding together nicely is a rare occurrence

 

We are in agreement on this series being under-valued. It is only recently coming into consciousness for the majority of collectors who are/have been hung up on comics material of the Famous Funnies/Action Comics format variety - and i will be reflecting the growing interest in the next Guide, as i am just starting to work on the revamp for the Vict & Plat sections of the Guide i compile

 

There will be more new information, new listings of stuff recently unearthed in the 2007 OPG

[adamstrange]

Guys---Whadda think? Time to go neutrals corners and bring this thread to an end.....? Jon

 

Diitto

 

In the GA forum, there's generally been a balance both in the content of posts and tone of posting to allow folks to enjoy a relaxed conversation about comics and collecting. I think that's a good thing, especially having seen how the General Forum has deteriorated in content, quality, and courtesy.

[bluechip]

were you putting this copy down, or making a larger commentary on "restoration" in general? I have no idea what the spoon reference means.

 

We are in agreement on this series being under-valued. It is only recently coming into consciousness for the majority of collectors who are/have been hung up on comics material of the Famous Funnies/Action Comics format variety - and i will be reflecting the growing interest in the next Guide

 

 

Bob, I really appreciate the work you do so want to make sure you know I was not putting this or any other copy down. Tooks pains to say it should go for good money.

 

The "spoon" was put in theire to replace the word which phoenetically sounds the same as "more on." I am guessing the site has found it necessary to install software that automatically censors that word.

 

I hadn't used it to apply to any real person, by the way, only an imagined one.

 

As mentioned, I did not put down the book but rather touted it. What I put down is the notion that this or any book should be boosted not with positive remarks about thatbook but negative remarks about others. And I put down the notion that bi defects in this or any book should be considered essentially meangless while much lesser defects in other books should have ten times the effect simply because of what somebody may or may not have been thinking when the book acquired the defect.

 

I haven't read everything you've written, but I have never seen you attempt to boost the value of older and rare books by sahing that other books are "turds" or "advise" people to stay away from entire categories of books -- especially when they're owned by other people.

 

(especially troubling to me are the people who have sold off their stock of restored books and then go into the press and tell people to stay away from them. That reaches the level of bad faith when you try to make it so your former customer cannot sell at a profit)

 

Your approach, as I've seen it, has been far more positive on all fronts. You simply speak in favor of the items you think should be noticed and highly valued.

 

Thank you for that.

[BLBcomics-migration]

Then we are on the same page - i go after stuff i like, and what it is "worth" is not the main criteria i go by - VG/F is my optimum collecting grade, give or take half a grade.

 

Once i read further into this thread, i realized i pulled the trigger on my previous post a little too early, as you explained yourself more fully, as i realized you were preaching to my choir.

 

I go positive on what is well done, as in creativity, and the ultimate importance of zero spine stress bends and using electron microscopes to look into the paper fibers to me is silly, but some people only want what CGC says is "the best", and i say more power to em, as they have deeper pockets than me.

 

Over on the OO vs Superman thread, there were people posting before i was informed that i should check out that thread, that i had some sort of agenda in seeing prices rise on the early stuff. That is what caused me to come on a bit too harshly to a couple of the posters there, as i take tremendous pride in my comics research results in those three history essays and the Vict & Plat price indexes, where i tend towards keeping prices down, as it is the info which runs my wagon.

 

That said, i agree with you that it is basicly silly to differentiate between intent to "fix" and simply some kid coloring in, as the result is the same - coloring on a book.

 

Tiny dots of color touch making a book "worthless" to some listers here is actually OK with me insofar as they drop out trying to buy such a book. Me, it is the esthetic beauty of any given book which attracts me to wanting to make a score - and even will accept a book with a bit of tape on it, depending where it is placed.

 

I place books in my collection not for investment purposes, but because i really like it. High grade i place up for sale, turn over, cannon fodder, which raises funds for what i really want to have for myself.

 

Now, that all said, COMIC MONTHLY is an interesting title, newspaper strip reprints 'n all. EmBee published this series in 1922 plus the last large size oblong books featuring Bringing Up Father and Katzenjammer Kids the year before in 1921. They also did some small size comic books not more than 5 inches tall, plus a Bringing Up Father board game in 1919, their first product.

 

George McManus was a co-owner of EmBee (being the M of Em) and Rudolph Block Jr was his partner, the B of Bee. Block Sr was Hearst's Sunday comics section editor for years.

 

Now that all said, Comic Monthly should in the near term knock Famous Funnies off its price throne as more people become aware of what was the "first" comic book news stand periodical. There will most likely be resistance from those who paid big bucks because people told them it was "first" when it is merely another "blip" in the comics time line

 

And one day down the road, after more education in proper comics history, collectors will embrace the truth that the first comic book in America was The Adventures of Obadiah Oldbuck, itself part of a news stand periodical series beginning in 1842, albeit the only comic book in the run.

[jmg3637]

this has been a very educational thread.

 

I ended up being high bidder, but did not meet reserve. wonder how much it was?

 

not sure if i would still have the funds as I picked up another of The Dentists offerings. while I am not thrilled with restoration, I don't mind it on books that I would never be able to afford in unrestored condition. I certainly want the book to hold together for the next 20 years until I sell it, or maybe 50 years when my kids do.

 

Superman 2