How much should interior defects count towards grade?

[murph0]

Ok, as an example.. now would we rather have... this ... or this..?

Both are the "same grade".. one is an eBay raw copy.. the other is a CGC pedigree copy (I only mention the pedigree as they tend to be more lenient on pedigrees)

Now.. would let's say you could choose between having the first "NM-" for 75 dollars with shipping... OR you could have the second "NM-" for 275 dollars (or 200 dollars if you were buying an ASM 63 CGC 9.2). It's a no brainer for me that I'd spend the extra 125 dollars for a far "closer to correct" NM- than something as off as the first one.

 

Brian

 

P.S. I wanted to use the same book but I didn't have a CGC copy of ASM 63 or any other 9.2s

 

[Illiterati-migration]

Ok, as an example.. now would we rather have... this ... or this..?

Both are the "same grade".. one is an eBay raw copy.. the other is a CGC pedigree copy (I only mention the pedigree as they tend to be more lenient on pedigrees)

Now.. would let's say you could choose between having the first "NM-" for 75 dollars with shipping... OR you could have the second "NM-" for 275 dollars (or 200 dollars if you were buying an ASM 63 CGC 9.2). It's a no brainer for me that I'd spend the extra 125 dollars for a far "closer to correct" NM- than something as off as the first one.

 

Brian

 

P.S. I wanted to use the same book but I didn't have a CGC copy of ASM 63 or any other 9.2s

 

Okay, take the next step in the argument here (because we've been through the "nobody can grade on Ebay" thing enough already and nobody was disputing that to begin with)...

 

WHY are you going to pay huge multiples when it has now been demonstrated that CGC is clearly not providing the services they advertise? How do you know that your books have had a resto check when they don't even bother to open a book and notice that there are TWO (not one) whole pages missing? This made it past **supposedly** FOUR graders. The "other example" that I provided with the TAPE on the interior pages got a 9.4. How are you going to explain these away and justify your investment?

 

This is truly an amazing situation. No one is going to crack their slabs to find out if CGC screwed up because nobody wants to lose any really sweet "gift grades" that they may have gotten. Me? If I claimed to be a "High Grade Collector," I would be extremely disappointed if there was ANY question about the TRUE quality of my books.

 

It's a little disturbing the way that no one else is jumping in on this conversation the way they would if it were Hammer trying to explain away "trimming" that may or may not have occured with one of his books. CGC is trying to pass off books that are of inferior quality as better than they actually are and there is no outrage?

 

And as far as your "pedigreed" books go, let's think back to the Nic Cage affair. Remember? How is that a pedigree? Pedigreed books are supposedly "original owner" collections, no? Well, Nic wasn't collecting books back in the 40's and 50's was he? I imagine he came by most of those books well after he was actually BORN. So what does that say for the "pedigree" that CGC assigned the books? The pedigree "distinction" is artificial at best, a complete sham at worst... either way, it sure does make for a more attractive market report to have HUGE spikes on particular books just because they have a special notation on the label, no?

[murph0]

Sorry this is an comic collector/dealer known pedigree, you won't be pulling the "what's a pedigree" on me here.

You try to argue an extreme one side of comic grading with all these what if this and what if that and what if this. But there's always the other extreme of me saying the exact opposite of what you said. It's all pointless either way. I'll continue buying CGC graded books as it works best for me, and you can continue doing.. well whatever you do.

Btw, it's VERY easy to start a rumor.. as a matter of fact I'll bet I can get a rumor going that CGC sent me a heavily restored back as a blue label and can guarantee you within a couple months it'll be on eBay forums boards as "true". For the most part a lot of these problems are all heresay IMO and most of them have logically explanations

 

Brian

 

P.S. You didn't tell me which book you'd prefer.. or would you like me to put up the NM/MT copy of ASM 121 I recently received so you have another possible selection?

[fantastic_four]

WHY are you going to pay huge multiples when it has now been demonstrated that CGC is clearly not providing the services they advertise? How do you know that your books have had a resto check when they don't even bother to open a book and notice that there are TWO (not one) whole pages missing? This made it past **supposedly** FOUR graders. The "other example" that I provided with the TAPE on the interior pages got a 9.4. How are you going to explain these away and justify your investment?

 

This is truly an amazing situation. No one is going to crack their slabs to find out if CGC screwed up because nobody wants to lose any really sweet "gift grades" that they may have gotten. Me? If I claimed to be a "High Grade Collector," I would be extremely disappointed if there was ANY question about the TRUE quality of my books.

 

It's a little disturbing the way that no one else is jumping in on this conversation the way they would if it were Hammer trying to explain away "trimming" that may or may not have occured with one of his books. CGC is trying to pass off books that are of inferior quality as better than they actually are and there is no outrage?

 

It's because we haven't seen any evidence of widespread mistakes on the part of CGC. Every business is going to make mistakes; you can't use two failures out of 200,000 as proof of fraud or incompetence. Nobody is saying here that CGC isn't making mistakes, or that their business procedures don't need improvement; this is what I hope the competition does to them, forces them to change for the better at a more rapid pace (and vice-versa for the new company). The problem with your criticism is that you're just complaining; you're not offering us any viable alternative to build our collections. Please, share this collection-building wisdom with us that you implicitly are telling us that you possess!!

 

Assume for a second you are a high grade collector and weigh the risks. Since this is a mental exercise for you, you're going to have to try to step outside of yourself, which you haven't yet shown the ability to do in this thread because you've repetitively ignored the perspective of people who have tried to buy these expensive, uncommon comics. Let's say you're in the market for copies of Spidey 1 to 20 in 9.0 or better shape. How would you go about trying to buy those issues in that grade with the minimal risk to the investment you'd have to put into them?

[fantastic_four]

How do you know the book is restored unless you get it CGCed? If a tree falls in the forest.......

 

Because I can detect some restoration, but not all restoration. All of my CGC submissions so far have been solely for the purpose of finding out about restoration on a book I had bought where I wasn't sure about the restoration. If you're really interested and not just in an argumentative mood, I'll give you a history of every early Marvel I've bought raw worth more than $200 and report everything I know about them, including how much money I've gained or lost on them. I don't even know right now whether I've made money or lost it from my raw buying, but I can definitely add it all up if you're interested. I'm pretty sure I've lost more than I've gained just from the one raw Daredevil #1 I got hosed on; I've posted scans of that one at least half a dozen times on here.

[Illiterati-migration]

Sorry this is an comic collector/dealer known pedigree, you won't be pulling the "what's a pedigree" on me here.

You try to argue an extreme one side of comic grading with all these what if this and what if that and what if this. But there's always the other extreme of me saying the exact opposite of what you said. It's all pointless either way. I'll continue buying CGC graded books as it works best for me, and you can continue doing.. well whatever you do.

Btw, it's VERY easy to start a rumor.. as a matter of fact I'll bet I can get a rumor going that CGC sent me a heavily restored back as a blue label and can guarantee you within a couple months it'll be on eBay forums boards as "true". For the most part a lot of these problems are all heresay IMO and most of them have logically explanations

 

Brian

 

P.S. You didn't tell me which book you'd prefer.. or would you like me to put up the NM/MT copy of ASM 121 I recently received so you have another possible selection?

 

I don't care about starting "rumors"... if you don't believe me, that's fine, I know the truth. And both of those books look like Fs to me, but it's hard to tell through that spectacular scan job you did on the Thor.

 

I'd probably prefer the Spider-Man, if for no other reason than it's a nice-looking copy with one color-breaking crease and a understandable amount of spine stresses on the black cover. The Thor looks rough to me, the corners are nicer, but I'm guessing there are a lot of color-breaking stress marks on that spine that are hard to identify through your scan.

 

I'm not "pulling" the "what's a pedigree" here with you, Murph. I was illustrating the point that CGC is willing to break their own rules. That should worry you. That's been my point all along here, you're putting all your eggs in one basket and the basket is starting to come apart (or whatever it is that baskets do).

 

Maybe you should try developing a relationship (not that kind) with some dealers so that they can help you in obtaining the books you're looking for? I've always got my local shop guys keyed-in on whatever random [!@#%^&^] I'm looking for at the time... (and it is completely random.) You wanted to know what I collect? You name it. My collecting tastes pretty much run the gamut, and if I thought you were actually interested in discussing our collections, I would certainly be glad to do so! However, I somewhat doubt that you really give a flying donut. Just know that I like obscure books and if I can get them in high grade then so much the better, but I see NO point in challenging the market by paying way over book value (pardon the pun) and essentially throwing my money away... particularly in light of what I've heard these last few days.

 

 

 

 

[fantastic_four]

Maybe you should try developing a relationship (not that kind) with some dealers so that they can help you in obtaining the books you're looking for? I've always got my local shop guys keyed-in on whatever random [!@#%^&^] I'm looking for at the time... (and it is completely random.)

 

Ah, now we're getting somewhere.

 

I've been to over 50 comic shops in my general area; no high grade Silver stuff to be found. The three biggest dealers in my area know they've got an instant sale from me if they get the good stuff. So far, I've gotten nothing prior to 1970 except one book--a really nice 9.2/9.4 copy of Spidey #51.

 

You don't seem to realize how people swarm on this stuff once it pops out...only the national dealers really have the books we're talking about in unslabbed raw condition. And almost none of them can detect restoration!!! Plus, they usually charge multiples of guide for raw just like they do for slabbed. To get the good stuff from national dealers, you've got a LOT of work to do--which most often means spending tens of thousands of dollars with them.

 

So...keep those suggestions coming...how are you going to get that Spidey 1 to 20 run in raw condition without losing your shirt? You're definitely not gonna get it from any local dealers unless you live in one of the biggest markets in the country like New York, or unless you've got the good fortune of being near one of the scattered national dealers of high grade. Even if you lived near Eide's Entertainment in the Maryland area, he won't sell his incredible Marvels to you!!! He lists them on ebay.

[Illiterati-migration]

WHY are you going to pay huge multiples when it has now been demonstrated that CGC is clearly not providing the services they advertise? How do you know that your books have had a resto check when they don't even bother to open a book and notice that there are TWO (not one) whole pages missing? This made it past **supposedly** FOUR graders. The "other example" that I provided with the TAPE on the interior pages got a 9.4. How are you going to explain these away and justify your investment?

 

This is truly an amazing situation. No one is going to crack their slabs to find out if CGC screwed up because nobody wants to lose any really sweet "gift grades" that they may have gotten. Me? If I claimed to be a "High Grade Collector," I would be extremely disappointed if there was ANY question about the TRUE quality of my books.

 

It's a little disturbing the way that no one else is jumping in on this conversation the way they would if it were Hammer trying to explain away "trimming" that may or may not have occured with one of his books. CGC is trying to pass off books that are of inferior quality as better than they actually are and there is no outrage?

 

It's because we haven't seen any evidence of widespread mistakes on the part of CGC. Every business is going to make mistakes; you can't use two failures out of 200,000 as proof of fraud or incompetence.

 

Did it ever cross your mind that maybe, just maybe the reason why you're NOT seeing many mistakes is because PEOPLE DON'T CRACK THE SLABS ONCE THEY GET THE BOOKS. Your willful ignorance to matters like this is making this conversation extremely tedious... but the fact that you're resorting to an insulting tone is making it all worthwhile.

 

But hey, you're right. There is NO other way to buy comic books unless they're CGCed. Hot diggity, I can't wait to go throw stupid money into a 9.4 and never even know that there is a page with almost two inches of tape inside!

 

Or...... since you're apparently running the risk of getting a [!@#%^&^] book anyway, why not take your chances buying a book from a dealer and try NOT paying the CGC multiples? Again, you're running the exact same risk, but you're not paying someone else for the reach-around.

 

Uh-oh... but you're going to pay prices equivalent to a CGCed copy anyway for a NM copy of the books you want? . Guess CGC has been artificially inflating prices after all, huh? The circle jerk is complete.

[fantastic_four]

But hey, you're right. There is NO other way to buy comic books unless they're CGCed. Hot diggity, I can't wait to go throw stupid money into a 9.4 and never even know that there is a page with almost two inches of tape inside!

 

Or...... since you're apparently running the risk of getting a [!@#%^&^] book anyway, why not take your chances buying a book from a dealer and try NOT paying the CGC multiples? Again, you're running the exact same risk, but you're not paying someone else for the reach-around.

 

Uh-oh... but you're going to pay prices equivalent to a CGCed copy anyway for a NM copy of the books you want? . Guess CGC has been artificially inflating prices after all, huh? The circle jerk is complete.

 

Please quote for me the text where I've become "insulting." Curt because you're being hard-headed about stuff you've admitted you've got no experience, maybe...but there are no insults in my posts from this thread. The only reason I'm bothering to fight through your refusal to weigh all the variables on this complex issue is because I know you usually eventually see reason, once you've had time for your ego to settle down.

 

Going to the radical extremes ("there is no other way to buy comic books unless they're CGCed") doesn't help. I buy LOTS of raw books! But the sources are few and far between where you're not taking a risk. Where are you going to find that high grade Spidey 1 to 20 run without losing your shirt? You seem confident they're out there...even though you've admitted you've never even looked!!!

 

You're becoming argumentative and closed-minded...sounds like the discussion is about over, but I'm more than willing to help you work through it.

[Paladin]

The circle jerk is complete.

 

Wasn't there a band called the "Circle Jerks"?

[murph0]

I don't care about starting "rumors"... if you don't believe me, that's fine, I know the truth. And both of those books look like Fs to me, but it's hard to tell through that spectacular scan job you did on the Thor.

 

I'll just assume you're not actually looking at the books (obviously the JIM is tough to see), rather than assume you simply can't grade. Sorry couldn't come up with a better scan, it was quick. I only scanned the ASM 63 to email to the seller in attempt to get a refund cause it's a PoS, btw the lower right corner is bent. There's nothing wrong with the Thor, no spine stress nothing. It's as solid NM- as they come.

 

I'm not "pulling" the "what's a pedigree" here with you, Murph. I was illustrating the point that CGC is willing to break their own rules. That should worry you. That's been my point all along here, you're putting all your eggs in one basket and the basket is starting to come apart (or whatever it is that baskets do).

 

I don't base my opinions on what is and isn't a pedigree by what CGC says. I never said I did, you just assumed that. Lots of their pedigree and collection labels are BS, however there simply isn't a correlation between their grading and their indentification of pedigrees.

 

Maybe you should try developing a relationship (not that kind) with some dealers so that they can help you in obtaining the books you're looking for?

 

I've long had a want list on file with many dealers. Some national dealers CAN find you basically whatever.. but then you're paying even more of a premium than you're already complaining about.. and unless if it's raw it's just as much a crapshoot to whether or not it's accurately graded and ANYWAYS you're ending up paying a CGC graded equivalent price..so...damned if you do damned if you don't?

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

But hey, you're right. There is NO other way to buy comic books unless they're CGCed. Hot diggity, I can't wait to go throw stupid money into a 9.4 and never even know that there is a page with almost two inches of tape inside!

 

Or...... since you're apparently running the risk of getting a [!@#%^&^] book anyway, why not take your chances buying a book from a dealer and try NOT paying the CGC multiples? Again, you're running the exact same risk, but you're not paying someone else for the reach-around.

 

Uh-oh... but you're going to pay prices equivalent to a CGCed copy anyway for a NM copy of the books you want? . Guess CGC has been artificially inflating prices after all, huh? The circle jerk is complete.

 

Please quote for me the text where I've become "insulting." Curt because you're being hard-headed about stuff you've admitted you've got no experience, maybe...but there are no insults in my posts from this thread. The only reason I'm bothering to fight through your refusal to weigh all the variables on this complex issue is because I know you usually eventually see reason, once you've had time for your ego to settle down.

 

Going to the radical extremes ("there is no other way to buy comic books unless they're CGCed") doesn't help. I buy LOTS of raw books! But the sources are few and far between where you're not taking a risk. Where are you going to find that high grade Spidey 1 to 20 run without losing your shirt? You seem confident they're out there...even though you've admitted you've never even looked!!!

 

You're becoming argumentative and closed-minded...sounds like the discussion is about over, but I'm more than willing to help you work through it.

 

FF, I laughed out loud at this one, so congratulations on actually being funny and cutting through that dark shroud you call a personality... what? You were trying to be insulting AGAIN? Ohhhh. I see.

 

You're ALWAYS taking a risk when you're buying something. To imply that you're not is ridiculous. However, with a service like CGC, they are functioning as a mediator to ensure that your only real risk is placed squarely on the shoulders of the dealer and not the product. (That's why the cases are tamper-resistant, see?)

 

But how we do digress. The original points being made on this matter are that now that the market is completely screwed by these ridiculous CGC-fueled prices, CGC is being proven to be JUST as unreliable as any other grader or grading service. Are you actually going to argue that point any further? Like I said, go ahead and buy your NM books from any national dealer (you've gotten so hung up on how hard it is to find these books that you are neglecting the REST of the argument) and pay the exorbitant CGC-inflated prices for graded OR raw books, at least with raw you'll be able to know for sure that your book doesn't have a big dribble of chocolate syrup down the middle of a page with a seven inch tear which has been taped back together.

 

Do you remember the days before CGC? The days before every book was a "potential" 9.8 or 10.0 and were priced as such? Back when dealers weren't thinking about how many multiples of guide price they could sell their books for? Now you've got an unreliable service that is driving prices through the roof because people THINK they can trust the grades they receive... and you're okay with that? You're obviously REAL good with money.

 

But look, you're CGC's lickspittle and you're obviously very comfortable functioning in that capacity, so good for you!

 

And don't attempt to pseudo-psychoanalyze me, FF... that's just impossibly juvenile and it serves only to show your desperation.

 

[Illiterati-migration]

and unless if it's raw it's just as much a crapshoot to whether or not it's accurately graded and ANYWAYS you're ending up paying a CGC graded equivalent price..so...damned if you do damned if you don't?

 

Hot damn! You're finally understanding why I have a problem with all this! Now that we're seeing MORE evidence of how shoddy CGC's grading-- well, the strictness and strident adherence to the policies of their grading-- is, why then are the prices so jacked up?? Because CGC made it so! The dealers can charge that much because EVERY near-high grade book (supposedly) has the potential to be graded and sell for huge multiples of guide!

 

 

[murph0]

CGC didn't make anything so pricey. They don't make people buy their product, people choose to do that. We don't live under Communism, noone is forcing anyone to buy a CGC book. They're paying what they will for the book because they want to OWN it (or speculate on it). If you don't like it simply don't buy them, let the people who want to buy them buy them. I'm not sitting here telling you to NOT buy raw comics, am I? I wouldn't expect you to tell me to NOT buy CGC comics.

On another note, price differences between different sources occured before CGC. Keep in mind National Dealer prices were and still are higher than eBay equivalent raw books. Same goes for National Dealer prices vs Local Dealer prices pre-eBay.

 

Brian

[Bugaboo-migration]

[Illiterati-migration]

CGC didn't make anything so pricey. They don't make people buy their product, people choose to do that. We don't live under Communism, noone is forcing anyone to buy a CGC book. They're paying what they will for the book because they want to OWN it (or speculate on it). If you don't like it simply don't buy them, let the people who want to buy them buy them. I'm not sitting here telling you to NOT buy raw comics, am I? I wouldn't expect you to tell me to NOT buy CGC comics.

 

Brian

 

Arg. You were so danged close...

 

CGC didn't DIRECTLY do it, that's right. BUT they promise a service that has essentially increased consumer confidence (as you and FF have been saying) and thus has created the "CGC Multiple of Guide" value phenomenon. Imagine CGC is the box, insufficiently_thoughtful_person consumers are Pandora. Now that the service is in question, the prices are all out-of-whack, and what will bring them back to earth? Nothing! The prices are up and they will stay up for so long as people are collecting comics... now, are all these books in slabs the actual grades indicated? Apparently not. Does that devalue ALL graded books? It sure should.

 

Didn't something like this happen with graded baseball cards?

[fantastic_four]

Again, quote my "insulting" text...don't just refer to it as if it's a given. There is no basis to your claim that I'm CGC-biased. I criticize them as much as I laud them, and if you can't see that, you're not looking. I defy you to point out what I have to gain personally in being CGC's "lickspittle."

 

 

You're ALWAYS taking a risk when you're buying something. To imply that you're not is ridiculous.

 

Obviously. But the point I was leading to, hoping you'd notice it on your own, is that one risk is greater than the other. This point isn't lost on anybody who's plunked down a good percentage of their disposable income on a comic book.

 

 

But how we do digress. The original points being made on this matter are that now that the market is completely screwed by these ridiculous CGC-fueled prices, CGC is being proven to be JUST as unreliable as any other grader or grading service. Are you actually going to argue that point any further? Like I said, go ahead and buy your NM books from any national dealer (you've gotten so hung up on how hard it is to find these books that you are neglecting the REST of the argument) and pay the exorbitant CGC-inflated prices for graded OR raw books, at least with raw you'll be able to know for sure that your book doesn't have a big dribble of chocolate syrup down the middle of a page with a seven inch tear which has been taped back together.

 

The points are intertwined, that's why I'm making them all at once...I'm about to give up hope you're able to see outside of yourself. But since you insist on focusing on only one part of a complex argument, let's focus on your main point, that CGC is being proven to be just as unreliable as any other grader. Ignore other grading services for now--nobody has claimed that CGC grades better or worse than CGG. Nobody knows that yet.

 

What percentage of the time is CGC wrong, and what percentage of the time is the average dealer or seller on E-Bay wrong?

[fantastic_four]

now, are all these books in slabs the actual grades indicated? Apparently not.

 

Once you show us this widespread incompetance, this debate will be over. Two mistakes, or even two hundred, don't cut it. Two hundred out of two hundred thousand is 99.9% efficiency. You're going to have to show a pattern of incompetance, not a few isolated examples. Harping on their 1-to-2-notch margin of error ain't gonna cut it until you find anybody on this planet who doesn't also have that same 1-to-2-notch margin of error. It's still better than the dealers and leagues beyond ebay sellers.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Khaos is losing, so get prepared for the tactic where he comes in here and delcares himself the winner of the debate........it's inevitable.

[Illiterati-migration]

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

You're ALWAYS taking a risk when you're buying something. To imply that you're not is ridiculous.

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

Obviously. But the point I was leading to, hoping you'd notice it on your own, is that one risk is greater than the other. This point isn't lost on anybody who's plunked down a good percentage of their disposable income on a comic book.

 

 

And as I've been saying all along here, one risk is rapidly showing NOT to be greater than the other. Read on...

 

What percentage of the time is CGC wrong, and what percentage of the time is the average dealer or seller on E-Bay wrong?

 

That's the whole problem here! How are we ever going to know? How can you be contented sitting on a pile of books that simply SAY they're "NM" without knowing? NO ONE is going to crack their slabs! CGC's errors are going to be changing hands for a long time. Do I need to remind you of the "tree falling in the forest" line from earlier? Why doesn't that bother you? Why is CGC worthy of your complete, blind trust? Is this sinking in yet? If you're really passionate about collecting comic books, it should bother you that there is a very good possibility that you're not getting the books as advertised.

 

I guess people are more content collecting CGC labels than comic books. Another aspect of this "complex" circle jerk is complete.