How much should interior defects count towards grade?

[fantastic_four]

In a post in the General forum, MajorKhaos posed the following question about whether defects on a comic's interior pages should be downgraded differently from those on the exterior:

 

 

Why wouldn't you? Is a comic just the cover? Is the slab truly all that matters?

 

Definitely a comic isn't just a cover, nor is the slab truly all that matters. However, interior pages and the outer cover aren't used in the same way. If you've got a comic with a 3" fold on an interior page, I think that comic can still be a Near Mint; but if that 3" fold is on the cover, the book is around Fine at best. The interior is for reading, and the exterior is a showcase. Because of this difference in function, the interior isn't downgraded for the same things the exterior is.

 

This is a controversial topic since Overstreet hasn't spelled this out very well in his standards, but in my experience with the grading of most dealers/collectors and CGC, the interior is graded differently, and it makes sense to me that it should be. My take on the interior is that you should only downgrade for defects which affect readability. Certainly CGC and Overstreet are in partial agreement on this; missing story panels means the book is an automatic "poor." I would go further and say that any defect which obscures the panel art or the function of turning the pages goes against grade, including printing defects. For example, here's one that should reduce grade:

 

 

This big honkin' ink smudge detracts from the uninterrupted enjoyment of reading the comic, so it should definitely affect grade. But if there's a fold across a page, or a small rip in the margins--who cares? It's an extremely minor defect Doesn't affect the read, and you can't see it on a continuing basis if it's hanging on your wall or propped up on a surface for display in your house.

 

So, the interior matters, but you don't pore over each page with a fine-tooth comb like you do to the exterior. This is why I believe they only have the pre-grader count the pages and note major interior defects; I bet the second and third graders just take a cursory look at the interior to mostly judge the page whiteness. It doesn't take as much skill to determine whether there are defects which affect reading; it mostly takes time and focus.

 

I brought this topic up about a year ago and got very little feedback. Do you guys agree that the interior should be graded differently?

[Illiterati-migration]

I posed the question in a rather half-arsed rhetorical manner... it's sad that this is even a question, really. "Near Mint" would imply that the book is in NEARLY the same condition as the day it was MINTED (or, in this case, printed). If there's chocolate syrup smeared across page 14, that would lead one to conclude that the book is no longer anything like it was the day it was printed.

 

Thus, the book is no longer "Near Mint"... it is actually very FAR from it.

 

Books are more than covers. If I'm buying a "Near Mint" book, it had better damn well be "Near Mint" all the way through, or I'm going to feel ripped off. The existance of this conversation doesn't even make sense. There is no question that the ENTIRE condition of the book should be taken into account when a book is graded.

 

I know that some people are making a mint (pardon the pun... wait, don't) having their books CGC graded and selling them that way for huge (artifical) multiples of their true worth, but I think we're seeing still more evidence that the service is both not reliable and perhaps more than a little sketchy. Of course, like many things, this too will be swept under the rug so long as everyone is still making money, so party on, fellas!

 

Love,

 

CI Jr.

[fantastic_four]

I think we're seeing still more evidence that the service is both not reliable and perhaps more than a little sketchy.

 

Definitely not 100% reliable, or maybe not even 80% reliable, but more reliable than any widespread service the industry has ever seen. You think you can do better--we're behind you 100% !

 

 

The existance of this conversation doesn't even make sense. There is no question that the ENTIRE condition of the book should be taken into account when a book is graded.

 

There's plenty of question, otherwise CGC and the history of grading would agree with you that interior defects count as much as exterior ones, but they don't. I bet that at least 75% of all people selling comics--and probably more--never count pages or deduct for defects that would knock a book down to the VG range, and I bet less than 50% of sellers never even open a book before grading it. Certainly that was true before CGC and it probably is still true. Yet I RARELY see people complain about or return comics due to those defects; it's typically only when something is missing entirely on the interior that people complain. How many threads have you seen in this forum with people complaining about a 2" fold on their "Near Mint" raw comic they bought from somebody on E-Bay? Or almost ANY defect besides something missing like an entire page or a Marvel Value Stamp? I can't remember any myself, and I find it hard to believe we're all getting books with flawless interiors.

 

How many comics do you own? Of those comics, how many of them have interior tears? Interior tears are fairly common; they occur particularly on the edges of pages when you turn them too fast and with too much force. I'd bet that you can't think of more than one or two comics that you own with interior tears, yet I'd also bet that for the ones you bought second-hand, a lot more than one or two have that defect. The reason most people don't even know whether their comics' interiors have defects like this is that even when you read the comic, you might not notice them if they don't impede reading.

 

Condition freaks like the cover...the interior is almost a separate entity. The inside isn't irrelevant, it just serves another function, and grading has evolved around the differences between those functions.

[awe4one]

For the money CGC charges for fees, they had better damn well make sure the interior of the comic is factored into the grade. Since the book is slabbed, the buyer is essentially taking CGC's word for it that the interior reflects the grade. The cover and the interior should both be graded equally.

 

The entire comic is being graded...not just the cover....unless I've missed something.

 

 

Jim

[fantastic_four]

For the money CGC charges for fees, they had better damn well make sure the interior of the comic is factored into the grade. Since the book is slabbed, the buyer is essentially taking CGC's word for it that the interior reflects the grade. The cover and the interior should both be graded equally.

 

The entire comic is being graded...not just the cover....unless I've missed something.

 

It does sound like you're missing something if you read anywhere in this thread that somebody was suggesting that only the cover should be graded. Title of the tread is "how much" should they count, not simply "should they count."

 

Are you saying that a 1" crease on an interior page should count the same as a 1" crease on the cover? If so, why?

[fantastic_four]

If there's chocolate syrup smeared across page 14, that would lead one to conclude that the book is no longer anything like it was the day it was printed.

 

Oh, and this one I agree with you with--chocolate syrup smeared across page 14 should be downgraded for, if it's not small and isolated to the margins. You notice it while reading and it takes you out of the story for a second or longer, so it's a defect you should downgrade for.

[awe4one]

How many comics do you own? Of those comics, how many of them have interior tears? Interior tears are fairly common; they occur particularly on the edges of pages when you turn them too fast and with too much force. I'd bet that you can't think of more than one or two comics that you own with interior tears, yet I'd also bet that for the ones you bought second-hand, a lot more than one or two have that defect. The reason most people don't even know whether their comics' interiors have defects like this is that even when you read the comic, you might not notice them if they don't impede reading.

 

Well then I'm in the minority then. I look at the whole comic when grading. Do I count the pages? No. But I do look for tears, coupons missing, bent corners, etc...

 

Condition freaks like the cover...the interior is almost a separate entity. The inside isn't irrelevant, it just serves another function, and grading has evolved around the differences between those functions.

 

But is that who CGC is catering to? Or should they do what they stated from the beginning? Grade the entire comic! If they are catering to "condition freaks", it doesn't sound like a good business model.

 

This whole discussion was already run through the ringer before CGC ever started operations and their stated intention to "slab" comics. At that time CGC ensured the grade would reflect the entire issue especially because the buyer would not be able to survey the interior without invalidating the grade.

 

 

Jim

[awe4one]

Are you saying that a 1" crease on an interior page should count the same as a 1" crease on the cover? If so, why?

 

No. I'd give the covers 40% and the interior 60%. A 1in crease on an interior page should be at least a .2 or .5 downgrade depending if it is on a story or ad page. I seen far too many comics where the bend has discolored the bended page.

 

 

Jim

[Illiterati-migration]

For the money CGC charges for fees, they had better damn well make sure the interior of the comic is factored into the grade. Since the book is slabbed, the buyer is essentially taking CGC's word for it that the interior reflects the grade. The cover and the interior should both be graded equally.

 

The entire comic is being graded...not just the cover....unless I've missed something.

 

 

Jim

 

Indeed. Their "grade" is a statement of the overall quality of the book... not just the cover. If they're going to make the book completely untouchable to a prospective buyer (by encasing it in hard plastic) then they'd better make reeeal sure that the books is actually the "grade" they give it.

 

The idea that "lots of books" have interior tears and whatnot is exactly WHY not all books are "Near Mint". IF THE BOOK IS NEAR MINT, IT IS NEARLY WHAT IT WAS THE DAY IT LEFT THE PRESSES.

 

(Pardon me Awe4 for running all over the place after quoting you but I'm in a hurry... )

 

And finally, this nonsense of "if you can do it better, then get to it" is ridiculous. CGC is doing a crappy job. You're LETTING them do a crappy job because you keep investing in their crappy product. "Officially" graded books mean nothing if you can't trust the "Official" grade. There's absolutely NO need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload.

 

For my money, CGCed books are worthless now that I know that the product is so incredibly spotty.

 

Hugs,

 

Joe_C Jr.

[fantastic_four]

At that time CGC ensured the grade would reflect the entire issue especially because the buyer would not be able to survey the interior without invalidating the grade.

 

Doesn't mean they count defects the same way on the interior and exterior, only that interior defects are indeed factored into the grade, which they are.

 

 

No. I'd give the covers 40% and the interior 60%. A 1in crease on an interior page should be at least a .2 or .5 downgrade depending if it is on a story or ad page. I seen far too many comics where the bend has discolored the bended page.

 

What do those percentages mean? I couldn't figure out how you came up with the .2 to .5 downgrade based on your example. It sounds like you think the 1-inch crease should count for more if it's on the interior, unless you were thinking that since there are a bunch of interior pages, a defect on any given page on a 32-page book is minimized by the fact that there may be 30 other pages without that defect. Do the percentages apply to single defects, or to the whole exterior versus the whole interior?

[fantastic_four]

And finally, this nonsense of "if you can do it better, then get to it" is ridiculous. CGC is doing a crappy job. You're LETTING them do a crappy job because you keep investing in their crappy product. "Officially" graded books mean nothing if you can't trust the "Official" grade. There's absolutely NO need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload.

 

So you buy all your books worth over $200 raw? Or do you not buy books over $200 and ignoring the core reason why CGC became so popular on Gold and Silver books to begin with? Without CGC, I'd get ripped off on about 1 or 2 out of every 10 high-dollar purchases due to restoration or overgrading; with them, I get ripped off a whole lot less.

 

CGC gives a guaranty, which is a best effort to provide an opinion. Can they do better? Absolutely...but statements like "there's absolutely no need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload" displays an ignorance that makes people ignore you. It doesn't help. Hammer always accused me of being a CGC apologist, but that was too broad a definition--I'm an apologist for anybody getting a raw deal with destructive criticism.

[Dr_Neff]

I bought a Human Torch 38 that was missing a page, dealer happily refunded $$.

Point is that since CgC is the surrogate mother in the birth of a comic deal, and we should all be aware that pages can be missing, and count them, regardless of our grading service selection. If you can't convince your clients that you grade accurately on your own, what is the suprise here?

I appraised a collection one time that had a Turok "supposed" file copy that had a page switched with a Marvel Comic of the same period.

I had a Flash 106 graded Qualified VG for the last (ad) page missing. Later I had another graded .5 incomplete for same defect.

 

Back to the topic -

 

I think that the interior defects should count for 50% and the cover 50% for grade.

And isn't a coverless book in nice shape still worth 1/3 of GOOD? so maybe we could propose that a cover should count for 2/3 of grade and book 1/3.?

I certainly wouldn't be happy with that Punisher as a "fresh off the press" Mint.

But would be hesitant to downgrade it because the structural integrity of the book is still unaffected.

It is foreign for a concourse inspector to wonder how the car handles, right? So by strict grading I don't think readability would factor in. As a collector I would share that view, as long as the NM Punisher was discount PRICED vs. other NM copies w/o smudge thing across it! EEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWW~!

 

It has been an occassional experience that people would overgrade to justify raising the price.

 

CgC has done us a favor by putting up the census, so that we can track the apparent rarity of issues in grade, so then the price can only be justfied by the buyer's desire, for professional or sentimental reasons weighed against population reports.

 

(and the added efforts of CBG, SCCB, and OCPR, with OPG #21 as well)

[awe4one]

The defect on the interior is a single page defect. The severity of the grade would be determined on the page affected and discoloration found.

 

The front and back cover would be 40% or so and get higher precedence due to their having unique attributes that interior pages do not (gloss, type of paper, etc.)

 

Some interior defects would be much more severe than others. A good example is a Marvel Stamp missing. What does CGC reduce for that (when they don't qualify the issue)? I don't have the data readily available but I believe it's mighty severe.

 

Consistancy is what I'd expect and a major consideration of the interior of the comic into the grade due to the fact that I as the buyer have no way of knowing.

 

 

Jim

[Dr_Neff]

For the money CGC charges for fees, they had better damn well make sure the interior of the comic is factored into the grade....

 

.....For my money, CGCed books are worthless now that I know that the product is so incredibly spotty.

 

Hugs,

 

Joe_C Jr.

 

I believe we are all in the majority to think that CgC factors the interior in the grade. Don't some of us have books with "Grader Notes" in the Margin between Issue number and Page Quality?

 

I think CgC does have that responsibility, and I felt it has been fulfilled beyond expectations 99.99+% of the time. I remember how impressed I was back in May 1999 seeing the slab for the first time. MAN IT WAS HUGE. I can't wait to hear about the magazine ones! And then they made the wells better, and the labels, then the stickers, and everything just keeps improving.

 

Maybe that book (different thread DD) was supposed to have a "Qualified" label (green), and got mislabelled rather than misgraded.

 

I think it (DD) got the wrong label. And I think it's crappy to jump ship at the MERE MENTION, not PROVEN FACT that the CgC girls made a mistake once in 350,000 submissions. Be nice if the medical field or law enforcement had fewer errors.

[awe4one]

And I think it's crappy to jump ship at the MERE MENTION, not PROVEN FACT that the CgC girls made a mistake once in 350,000 submissions.

 

It's a proven fact either way you make it. How many 4.0 Qualifieds have you seen? And now that we know of one.....and one that WAS taken out of the holder (which is a rarity vs. numbers that stay in their slabs).....the odds of there being others are greater for than against.

 

 

Jim

[fantastic_four]

Yea I've seen that same inconsistency from CGC, where they used to give the Qualified grade for pages missing and now they give a Universal Poor grade to books like that. That definitely seems to be an example where they've explicitly changed their grading standards.

 

Awe4one -- CGC usually gives a Qualified grade to books with the Marvel Value Stamp clipped out. The 2002 Overstreet Grading Guide lists Fair as the highest grade that can have a coupon cut.

 

I'd like to see CGC do what that new company 3PG claims they'll be doing--explicity list defects on the label for books 9.0 or above. Wish they'd go even further with grade-reducing interior defects and list them all.

 

One slab example showed me a lot about how CGC downgrades for interior defects. A few years ago, a dealer on the East Coast owned a copy of Spidey #6 that was a Qualified CGC 9.4 due to an interior printing tear 1" long that went through 6 pages. The dealer resubmitted--I assume because the Qualified grade is kinda unpopular--and they gave it a Universal 9.2. So 6 total inches of interior tearing was only enough to knock the book down by 0.2. I find this to be reasonable myself, as long as the tears didn't interfere with the art; I'd have to see the tears to be sure.

 

It's tough to come up with percentages of total grade the cover and interior should count for. I started a thread asking people for percentages for the front-interior-back about 10 months ago, but during the thread I started to realize that you can't just say the cover counts for 50%, because as Neff mentioned, a coverless comic knocks grade straight down to poor. A cover without an interior would be even worse--incomplete and poor. Even if they're both present, if you've got a really beat-up cover with a nice interior, or vice-versa, it becomes obvious that the grade should still be in the Poor to Good range, which means that either the interior or exterior alone could count for as much as 90% or more of grade.

 

The percentages that could be useful are to use them for calculating deductions for individual defects. For example, a 1" crease on the interior could count for 1/2 as much as a 1" crease on the exterior, although I think it should impact grade much less if it doesn't interfere with readability.

[Illiterati-migration]

One slab example showed me a lot about how CGC downgrades for interior defects. A few years ago, a dealer on the East Coast owned a copy of Spidey #6 that was a Qualified CGC 9.4 due to an interior printing tear 1" long that went through 6 pages. The dealer resubmitted--I assume because the Qualified grade is kinda unpopular--and they gave it a Universal 9.2. So 6 total inches of interior tearing was only enough to knock the book down by 0.2. I find this to be reasonable myself, as long as the tears didn't interfere with the art; I'd have to see the tears to be sure.

 

 

This further illustrates that you have no concept of what "near mint" means.

 

I've already received one PM telling me about a submitted book (by the PMer who chooses to remain nameless....... for now... damn coward) with a torn AND taped interior page that came back BLUE label 9.4 with NO mention of the missing pages on the label. . What do you make of that?

 

 

[COI]

CGC is doing a crappy job. You're LETTING them do a crappy job because you keep investing in their crappy product. "Officially" graded books mean nothing if you can't trust the "Official" grade. There's absolutely NO need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload.

 

MK, how do you collect comics, and what is your prime motivation to do so? I'm not asking you this with any back-handed intentions, I'm just not sure I've read much about your collecting habits. But your above comment, I wouldn't think you collect early silver or G.A books. And if you are a reader, and could care less about values and HG books, that's fine. But if that's the case, then I'd bet you have never been burned on a restored book, or lost a significant amount of money on an overgraded POS. CGC may not be perfect(or far from it) but to say that there is absolutley "no need" for CGC's service just because a VG book has been found to have a torn page, is far too simplistic a view.

 

Let's be realistic here; regardless of what CGC says, do you really think that a VG books is going to be graded with the same care and attention as a NM? Anyone who thinks that CGC goes over EVERY single book with same amount of care is a little naive. These guys are not machines. I'm sure that in the course of having book after book shoved infront of them, they may sometimes get a little tired and careless. Haven't you ever been working, and cut a few corners, even if you were dedicated to the job? Human error due to fatigue, carelessness, neglect, or whatever else, is bound to happen anywhere. But to totally dismiss the company on a few mistakes, and refusing to see any value of CGC's service simply because it does not have a place in your hobby is a little ignorant, don't you think?

[COI]

I've already received one PM telling me about a submitted book (by the PMer who chooses to remain nameless....... for now... damn coward) with a torn AND taped interior page that came back BLUE label 9.4 with NO mention of the missing pages on the label. . What do you make of that?

 

I don't think anything can be made of it until the person steps up with the book in question.

[Illiterati-migration]

And finally, this nonsense of "if you can do it better, then get to it" is ridiculous. CGC is doing a crappy job. You're LETTING them do a crappy job because you keep investing in their crappy product. "Officially" graded books mean nothing if you can't trust the "Official" grade. There's absolutely NO need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload.

 

So you buy all your books worth over $200 raw? Or do you not buy books over $200 and ignoring the core reason why CGC became so popular on Gold and Silver books to begin with? Without CGC, I'd get ripped off on about 1 or 2 out of every 10 high-dollar purchases due to restoration or overgrading; with them, I get ripped off a whole lot less.

 

You THINK you get ripped off a whole lot less. How many of your slabs have you cracked? How many pages of those graded books have you actually SEEN? You're defending these people without having EVER seen their operation and with NO facts to back up any amount of blind allegiance. You're always so busy debating whether page quality factors into the grade... well, what about when entire pages are missing? Shouldn't that factor in a little more? Maybe a little more than two-tenths of a grade point??? Do you actually wonder why Hammer considers you a CGC "apologist"?

 

CGC gives a guaranty, which is a best effort to provide an opinion. Can they do better? Absolutely...but statements like "there's absolutely no need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload" displays an ignorance that makes people ignore you. It doesn't help. Hammer always accused me of being a CGC apologist, but that was too broad a definition--I'm an apologist for anybody getting a raw deal with destructive criticism.

 

I'll say it again: There's absolutely no need for a service like CGC except for artificially inflating prices and bringing in specs by the boatload.

 

People hear that a book (how about the ASM #36 10.0 that sold last year that really got the ball rolling for a lot of CGC-ites and specs alike?) sold for $2,000 and you don't think that's going to do anything more than just bring a bunch of know-nothing specs and dramatic price hikes to the hobby? Riiiight.

 

Osborne_France got ripped off on a book that CGC graded. The forum member mentioned in my previous post ripped someone else off with that "9.4" that had a taped interior page that had no notation about it (he sold it anyway without disclosing the details). Actually, now that I think about it, there's no way in hell that you or anyone else is going to either acknowledge the problem or speak out about it... why kill the golden goose? And yes, FF, I realize that you're not a dealer and that you collect simply for astoundingly altruistic purposes... so why can't you just buy any ol' plastic case to put your comics in? You're being presented with evidence that CGC is not doing their job, why should you pay their multiples?