How much should interior defects count towards grade?

[Illiterati-migration]

Khaos is losing, so get prepared for the tactic where he comes in here and delcares himself the winner of the debate........it's inevitable.

 

Still smarting from your thrashing in the Cooler? You're actually resorting to troll tactics?

[Illiterati-migration]

now, are all these books in slabs the actual grades indicated? Apparently not.

 

Once you show us this widespread incompetance, this debate will be over. Two mistakes, or even two hundred, don't cut it. Two hundred out of two hundred thousand is 99.9% efficiency. You're going to have to show a pattern of incompetance, not a few isolated examples. Harping on their 1-to-2-notch margin of error ain't gonna cut it until you find anybody on this planet who doesn't also have that same 1-to-2-notch margin of error. It's still better than the dealers and leagues beyond ebay sellers.

 

Again, crack your slabs. You think anyone is going to KILL THAT GOLDEN GOOSE? (How many times have you heard that now?)

[murph0]

So let me see if I'm reading you correctly.. if the book was sent in with the submitter KNOWING there's nothing wrong with the inside... CGC will then either misgrade the book OR rip/mess up/destroy some part of the interior of the book? If you buy a pre-CGC'd book.. that means the outside MIGHT be accurately graded HOWEVER the interior more than likely has some form of defeciency?

I can't recall EVER sending in a book not knowing for a fact that the interior has no problems, looks like some others don't though. :\

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

So let me see if I'm reading you correctly.. if the book was sent in with the submitter KNOWING there's nothing wrong with the inside... CGC will then either misgrade the book OR rip/mess up/destroy some part of the interior of the book? If you buy a pre-CGC'd book.. that means the outside MIGHT be accurately graded HOWEVER the interior more than likely has some form of defeciency?

I can't recall EVER sending in a book not knowing for a fact that the interior has no problems, looks like some others don't though. :\

 

Brian

 

Ah, no? No no no. NO. I never said they will mess up a book, never even thought that. (Just wanted to make sure that was crystal clear.)

 

And I'm sure there are a LOT of people who have NO idea what the full interiors of their books look like when they ship them off to CGC. Submitters are more likely to be someone selling books rather than someone doing the equivalent of sending the beloved family pet off to the taxidermist. Volume submitters are going to be blissfully unaware of books that have extreme flaws on interior pages.

 

But the whole point here is that it doesn't matter.

[fantastic_four]

What percentage of the time is CGC wrong, and what percentage of the time is the average dealer or seller on E-Bay wrong?

 

That's the whole problem here! How are we ever going to know? How can you be contented sitting on a pile of books that simply SAY they're "NM" without knowing? NO ONE is going to crack their slabs! CGC's errors are going to be changing hands for a long time. Do I need to remind you of the "tree falling in the forest" line from earlier? Why doesn't that bother you?

 

It does bother me, but until somebody shows me evidence this is happening, it's not as big a concern as the concerns inherent in buying expensive books raw. The risk of losing money to undisclosed restoration or overgrading is proven to those who have made a serious, prolonged effort to collect uncommon, high grade books; the incompetance of CGC is not (I renew my offer to share how much I've gained or lost on raw books if you're interested). Once CGC is proven incompetant, their trust will go away. But you can't hold up a few bad grades as evidence that there's mass incompetence on their part.

 

The fact that you're using two bad grades as proof the whole company is either corrupt or incompetant isn't enough. To assume they're not going to make mistakes is to not understand the nature of chaos and natural complexity...show me a company that doesn't make 500 mistakes a day!!!

[murph0]

So if I told you I've opened 5 or 6 CGC books (that I didn't submit) to take a look at them and found no problem, then you'd say I'm just lucky? The only interior defect problem I've ever heard of is the one on this forum, and there seems to be a lot of ppl on the eBay forums who had submitted one book to test CGC and then broke it out of the slab. I'm sure they could provide some info on what the book looks like..?

 

Brian

[fantastic_four]

I'd have to crack thousands of slabs to prove this, not a few dozen. What do you think CGC has to gain by intentionally skipping defects? If I assumed malice or incompetance in every product in my life, I'd never leave the house. I'd constantly be concerned about roaches in my milkshakes and anthrax in my mail. I'd be living in a plastic bubble.

 

98% of us live to prove positives, not to dwell in the negatives. CGC has more to lose than to gain by not doing a good job. However, if you've got evidence that CGC is incompetant, I encourage you to share it. A few mistakes aren't evidence; a few mistakes are EXPECTED. Show me a business where that isn't true!

[Illiterati-migration]

It does bother me, but until somebody shows me evidence this is happening, it's not as big a concern as the concerns inherent in buying expensive books raw.

 

Tree falling in the forest... if no one is around to hear it, does anyone care? Apparently not.

 

 

The fact that you're using two bad grades as proof the whole company is either corrupt or incompetant isn't enough. To assume they're not going to make mistakes is to not understand the nature of chaos and natural complexity...show me a company that doesn't make 500 mistakes a day!!!

 

It's collectibles. Their value is determined by their condition. TWO MISSING PAGES IS NOT A SMALL "oops". TWO INCHES OF TAPE ON A TORN INTERIOR PAGE ON A BOOK COMING BACK 9.4 IS NOT A SMALL "oops." You want more examples, get to crackin' them slabs. Better yet, show me CGC's grading criteria. Maybe they just don't take interior pages into consideration. Yep, bet that's it. Sadly, we'll never know because CGC can't release the "Secret Recipe" (like there's any huge secret to grading comics)... or maybe it's because they don't want to write that proverbial check that their butts can't cash? Maybe they really DON'T take interior pages into consideration? Maybe the only things they look for inside the books is missing MVSs?

 

 

 

[murph0]

Maybe they really DON'T take interior pages into consideration? Maybe the only things they look for inside the books is missing MVSs?

 

That's obviously not true, just run a search on eBay or Heritage for Qualified books. Lots of qualified grades with tears on remote pages, centerfolds not attached, etc etc. Given that's no indication that they catch EVERY SINGLE ONE, but they do obviously check the interior or there wouldn't be qualified books out there.

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

So if I told you I've opened 5 or 6 CGC books (that I didn't submit) to take a look at them and found no problem, then you'd say I'm just lucky? The only interior defect problem I've ever heard of is the one on this forum, and there seems to be a lot of ppl on the eBay forums who had submitted one book to test CGC and then broke it out of the slab. I'm sure they could provide some info on what the book looks like..?

 

Brian

 

>sigh< Obviously not every book is going to have horrible interior defects.

[fantastic_four]

You want more examples, get to crackin' them slabs. Better yet, show me CGC's grading criteria. Maybe they just don't take interior pages into consideration. Yep, bet that's it. Sadly, we'll never know because CGC can't release the "Secret Recipe" (like there's any huge secret to grading comics)...

 

It's not a matter of me wanting more examples, it's a matter of how you prove incompetance. Isolated examples don't do that.

 

It's not a secret, but there's a huge flaw in comic book grading that I haven't really seen generally recognized--the standards are young, and still very much in development. Have you ever compared comic book grading to grading in other hobbies like stamp or coin collecting? We're ALL neophytes, including CGC. Try going to your local comic shop and buying a black light. I did; I didn't find a single one out of over 50 comic shops in my state! I got my first one at a stamp store just a few miles past my house, and I talked with the owner a while...it's amazing how much more evolved their hobby is with respect to grading. Comics have only been worth tens of thousands of dollars for a few decades now, but stamps and coins have been valuable for over a century, and grading in their hobbies have progressed more because of that long-held value. If comics are still being collected 100 years from now, to compare grading then to what it is now will be a joke.

 

That's the big risk in comic "investing"...we're a newly-created work in progress as compared to most other businesses. But still, comparatively, some books are better than others, they always will be, and people will always want the best they can get. So buying the best is not entirely without merit.

[fantastic_four]

Now that we're somewhat back on topic, here's a slabbed example that exhibits CGC does downgrade for some interior defects:

Click for larger picture

This book is a 9.6 from the exterior; it's simply stunning. But check out the label. I was extremely pleased when I got this book. I was afraid there would be wrinkling on the cover from the water stain, but there isn't any, anywhere.Somewhat ironically, I got this book from Rob Hughes, the possible head of CGC's rumored upcoming rival.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Still smarting from your thrashing in the Cooler? You're actually resorting to troll tactics?

Actually, you didn't post a single valid argument in the Water Cooler......so I could have just not even responded to your posts and I'd still have won. Sadly though, it looks like you're resorting to Ubiquiti's method of claiming yourself the victor when you've clearly been trounced. And, by troll tactics, do you mean like the new thread you started in the Water Cooler?

 

Down here, I'm just trying to figure out how all these people are paying multiples of guide for these books when they can't get overtime pay? I smell a CGC conspiracy here somewhere, Khaos......keep sniffing.......and screeching......and holding your breath......and whatever else you do when you're proven wrong.

[Illiterati-migration]

Still smarting from your thrashing in the Cooler? You're actually resorting to troll tactics?

Actually, you didn't post a single valid argument in the Water Cooler......so I could have just not even responded to your posts and I'd still have won. Sadly though, it looks like you're resorting to Ubiquiti's method of claiming yourself the victor when you've clearly been trounced. And, by troll tactics, do you mean like the new thread you started in the Water Cooler?

 

Down here, I'm just trying to figure out how all these people are paying multiples of guide for these books when they can't get overtime pay? I smell a CGC conspiracy here somewhere, Khaos......keep sniffing.......and screeching......and holding your breath......and whatever else you do when you're proven wrong.

 

Oh Buggy, I don't have time for one of your temper tantrums tonight. Call your mom downstairs to change your diaper for you.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Still smarting from your thrashing in the Cooler? You're actually resorting to troll tactics?

Actually, you didn't post a single valid argument in the Water Cooler......so I could have just not even responded to your posts and I'd still have won. Sadly though, it looks like you're resorting to Ubiquiti's method of claiming yourself the victor when you've clearly been trounced. And, by troll tactics, do you mean like the new thread you started in the Water Cooler?

 

Down here, I'm just trying to figure out how all these people are paying multiples of guide for these books when they can't get overtime pay? I smell a CGC conspiracy here somewhere, Khaos......keep sniffing.......and screeching......and holding your breath......and whatever else you do when you're proven wrong.

 

Oh Buggy, I don't have time for one of your temper tantrums tonight. Call your mom downstairs to change your diaper for you.

......that's your response.......a mom and diaper insult?

 

Sorry, but as I've already stated, I'm calm and having a pleasant evening. You do seem to be thowing a hissy fit in several threads tonight, though. And, I just think you might be onto something with that whole "overtime" thing. Of course, you might just be homing in on your own ignorance......but at least that would be something real that we can all agree exists.

[Illiterati-migration]

Okay, Buggy, whatever you say. Night-night! Hope you wake up on the right side of the bed tomorrow!

[Bugaboo-migration]

Okay, Buggy, whatever you say. Night-night! Hope you wake up on the right side of the bed tomorrow!

Hey, I'm just trying to figure out where this dreaded "overtime" conspiracy fits into the whole comic market/nuclear threat scenario. I even offered to mail you a sandwich earlier to help out in these troubling times, but you refused. That sure doesn't sound like I woke up on the wrong side of the bed.

 

Although, it does sound like you mistakenly put on your "grumpy pants" today.......try wearing your "happy skirt" tomorrow......maybe that will help.

[Illiterati-migration]

Now that we're somewhat back on topic, here's a slabbed example that exhibits CGC does downgrade for some interior defects:

Click for larger picture

This book is a 9.6 from the exterior; it's simply stunning. But check out the label. I was extremely pleased when I got this book. I was afraid there would be wrinkling on the cover from the water stain, but there isn't any, anywhere.Somewhat ironically, I got this book from Rob Hughes, the possible head of CGC's rumored upcoming rival.

I would think that examples like that simply provide further proof that CGC grades almost exclusively on the exterior of the book... how can a book with a water stain still be considered "Near Mint"???? How many books roll off the presses with water stains??

[murph0]

Then what's the explanation for CGC having a qualified grade which features such beauties as tears on pages, missing ads, missing MVS, etc etc

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

Then what's the explanation for CGC having a qualified grade which features such beauties as tears on pages, missing ads, missing MVS, etc etc

 

Brian

 

An excellent point! Why SHOULD they have a qualified grade if things like that figure into a Blue label grade?!? Further proof that they don't grade interiors! Nice work, Murph!