How much should interior defects count towards grade?

[murph0]

But... if they truly don't grade interiors.. there wouldn't be any books under the qualifed tier?

 

Brian

[Illiterati-migration]

But... if they truly don't grade interiors.. there wouldn't be any books under the qualifed tier?

 

Brian

 

Ah, and this is why there is the existence of the Qualified tier... because they are defects which are EXEMPT from factoring into the grade for a blue label because they are on the interior of the book, so they are thus noted on a green label Qualified because they will not be accounted for by CGC otherwise! Egads, it's like I'm Holmes and you're Watson!

[Bugaboo-migration]

This book is a 9.6 from the exterior; it's simply stunning. But check out the label. I was extremely pleased when I got this book. I was afraid there would be wrinkling on the cover from the water stain, but there isn't any, anywhere.

I would think that examples like that simply provide further proof that CGC grades almost exclusively on the exterior of the book... how can a book with a water stain still be considered "Near Mint"???? How many books roll off the presses with water stains??

How does this provide proof to back up what you're saying? He said the book is a 9.6 from the exterior and CGC graded it a 9.0 VF/NM due to the defect only visible on the interior. That seems to provide proof contrary to what you're saying.

[Illiterati-migration]

This book is a 9.6 from the exterior; it's simply stunning. But check out the label. I was extremely pleased when I got this book. I was afraid there would be wrinkling on the cover from the water stain, but there isn't any, anywhere.

I would think that examples like that simply provide further proof that CGC grades almost exclusively on the exterior of the book... how can a book with a water stain still be considered "Near Mint"???? How many books roll off the presses with water stains??

How does this provide proof to back up what you're saying? He said the book is a 9.6 from the exterior and CGC graded it a 9.0 VF/NM due to the defect only visible on the interior. That seems to provide proof contrary to what you're saying.

 

Right, but I think that a water stain is a pretty severe defect and certainly should take a book out of NM range. Consider that a color-breaking corner fold will automatically drop a book into VF range.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Right, but I think that a water stain is a pretty severe defect and certainly should take a book out of NM range. Consider that a color-breaking corner fold will automatically drop a book into VF range.

You can say this without even seeing it? How do you know how severe it is? It might be imperceptible until viewed under magnification or intense lighting. I would say that a VF/NM grade would be acceptable if it wasn't very noticible. You seem to be faulting people for accepting a grade without examining the book for themselves, and yet you can make a judgement call on whether a book that looks like a nm+ should be graded lower than vf/nm without seeing the defect it was downgraded for??

[Illiterati-migration]

Right, but I think that a water stain is a pretty severe defect and certainly should take a book out of NM range. Consider that a color-breaking corner fold will automatically drop a book into VF range.

You can say this without even seeing it? How do you know how severe it is? It might be imperceptible until viewed under magnification or intense lighting. I would say that a VF/NM grade would be acceptable if it wasn't very noticible. You seem to be faulting people for accepting a grade without examining the book for themselves, and yet you can make a judgement call on whether a book that looks like a nm+ should be graded lower than vf/nm without seeing the defect it was downgraded for??

 

What I've been espousing all along has been that "Mint" is "Mint". "Near Mint" is very nearly "Mint." That does not, in my humblest of opinions, include water staining ANYWHERE on the book. To me, it's the same as having a color-breaking fold... it's actually changing the color of the book, why wouldn't it grade the same as a Vf inducing corner fold + color break? Rules are rules.

 

And I don't know that that book is a NM+... It is undeniably beautiful, but I have questions about that LLC.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Right, but I think that a water stain is a pretty severe defect and certainly should take a book out of NM range. Consider that a color-breaking corner fold will automatically drop a book into VF range.

You can say this without even seeing it? How do you know how severe it is? It might be imperceptible until viewed under magnification or intense lighting. I would say that a VF/NM grade would be acceptable if it wasn't very noticible. You seem to be faulting people for accepting a grade without examining the book for themselves, and yet you can make a judgement call on whether a book that looks like a nm+ should be graded lower than vf/nm without seeing the defect it was downgraded for??

 

What I've been espousing all along has been that "Mint" is "Mint". "Near Mint" is very nearly "Mint." That does not, in my humblest of opinions, include water staining ANYWHERE on the book. To me, it's the same as having a color-breaking fold... it's actually changing the color of the book, why wouldn't it grade the same as a Vf inducing corner fold + color break? Rules are rules.

 

And I don't know that that book is a NM+... It is undeniably beautiful, but I have questions about that LLC.

But whose standards are you using? Your own......Overstreets? CGC never promised to use either one them. This book was not graded NM. This book wasn't even graded NM-. This books was graded VF/NM.......and based on the exterior, it certainly looks better than that.......which suggests that CGC doesn't just grade on the exterior. Just because you have a thing against imperceptible water stains on the interior of a book, doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. And, just because you think it's the same as a color-breaking fold doesn't make it so. How do you know it's changing the color of the book? You're seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions to drive your point home, but that's really all that they are....assumptions. If I had a choice between the book pictured and one with a color-breaking fold, I'd chose the former ever time.

[Illiterati-migration]

Right, but I think that a water stain is a pretty severe defect and certainly should take a book out of NM range. Consider that a color-breaking corner fold will automatically drop a book into VF range.

You can say this without even seeing it? How do you know how severe it is? It might be imperceptible until viewed under magnification or intense lighting. I would say that a VF/NM grade would be acceptable if it wasn't very noticible. You seem to be faulting people for accepting a grade without examining the book for themselves, and yet you can make a judgement call on whether a book that looks like a nm+ should be graded lower than vf/nm without seeing the defect it was downgraded for??

 

What I've been espousing all along has been that "Mint" is "Mint". "Near Mint" is very nearly "Mint." That does not, in my humblest of opinions, include water staining ANYWHERE on the book. To me, it's the same as having a color-breaking fold... it's actually changing the color of the book, why wouldn't it grade the same as a Vf inducing corner fold + color break? Rules are rules.

 

And I don't know that that book is a NM+... It is undeniably beautiful, but I have questions about that LLC.

But whose standards are you using? Your own......Overstreets? CGC never promised to use either one them. This book was not graded NM. This book wasn't even graded NM-. This books was graded VF/NM.......and based on the exterior, it certainly looks better than that.......which suggests that CGC doesn't just grade on the exterior. Just because you have a thing against imperceptible water stains on the interior of a book, doesn't mean that everyone else has to as well. And, just because you think it's the same as a color-breaking fold doesn't make it so. How do you know it's changing the color of the book? You're seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions to drive your point home, but that's really all that they are....assumptions. If I had a choice between the book pictured and one with a color-breaking fold, I'd chose the former ever time.

 

That's an Overstreet standard... and the whole problem here is that CGC doesn't tell anyone what their grading criteria is... nor do you know that it is an "imperceptible" water stain on the interior. FF even said that he was surprised that the exterior of the cover wasn't "wavy" as a result. That to me means it's a pretty substantial stain. How else would one SEE a water "stain" unless it changed the color of a book? See, water tends to cause a yellowing effect on comic books. It leaves a weird little ring... that's not an assumption, that's the way water works. I agree that the book is very beautiful and given the choice between that and most any other copy that would probably win out most all of the time, but the water stain still makes it a Vf to me.

 

(But I'm still bothered by that LLC. I need clarification on it. FF?)

 

 

[Bugaboo-migration]

That's an Overstreet standard... and the whole problem here is that CGC doesn't tell anyone what their grading criteria is... nor do you know that it is an "imperceptible" water stain on the interior. FF even said that he was surprised that the exterior of the cover wasn't "wavy" as a result. That to me means it's a pretty substantial stain. How else would one SEE a water "stain" unless it changed the color of a book? See, water tends to cause a yellowing effect on comic books. It leaves a weird little ring... that's not an assumption, that's the way water works. I agree that the book is very beautiful and given the choice between that and most any other copy that would probably win out most all of the time, but the water stain still makes it a Vf to me.

 

(But I'm still bothered by that LLC. I need clarification on it. FF?)

What is classified as an Overstreet standard? That any type of water stain anywhere on the book lowers it to a VF? I think that CGC grades far tighter than most people and most dealers, so I don't personally have to know what their grading criteria is. I have 12 to 14 CGC books right now (can't remember and don't feel like looking) and they all look better than any books I've ever purchased "raw" with the same grades. Sure, that's on the exterior, but I've also submitted a couple of books that I was able to examine closely and thought they graded very tightly on them.

 

I'm assuming FF bought this book already graded and knew about the "water stain" comment before receiving it. I'm thinking that's why he was pleasantly suprised that the cover wasn't wavy. That wouldn't mean that is was a substantial stain at all......just the opposite. CGC discovered the stain and noted it on the label, but it wasn't even enough to "wave" the paper. To me, that would mean that it's pretty minor. And, like I said, there doesn't appear to be any color effected on the book (exterior anyway). CGC uses intense lighting and magnification to spot flaws. It's entirely possible that the defect was only visible with these techniques being used, and then, only visible from the inside of the book.

 

Again, you're trying to use your own personal grading criteria for what you feel this book should have received. You think it's a vf book. I don't. Each person is going to have defects for which they personally grade more strictly for, and that's one of the pluses that CGC offeres in a chaotic grading market. Instead of several thousand collectors and several hundred dealers putting different "weights" on what defects rub them the wrong way, CGC (usually) offers some stability and makes it easier to do business over the internet without getting burned on every other deal.

[Illiterati-migration]

What's is classified as an Overstreet standard? That any type of water stain anywhere on the book lowers it to a VF?

 

Again, the Grading Guide classifies any book with a color breaking fold as being no better than Vf. Personally, I would be seriously pissed off if I was sold a stained or creased book as a NM. Either way it's changing the color of the book and certainly wouldn't be NM to me.

 

I think that CGC grades far tighter than most people and most dealers, so I don't personally care to know what their grading criteria is.

 

I agree that they grade very tightly on covers... the interiors are a biiiiig question mark though. Again, in my opinion, the interior of the book is just as important as the exterior... but then again, once it's in a plastic case, who can tell what the interior is like anyway, right?

 

I'm assuming FF bought this book already graded and knew about the "water stain" comment before receiving it. I'm thinking that's why he was pleasantly suprised that the cover wasn't wavy. That wouldn't mean that is was a substantial stain at all......just the opposite. CGC discovered the stain and noted it on the label, but it wasn't even enough to "wave" the paper. To me, that would mean that it's pretty minor.

 

That could be true (about FF buying the book already-graded)... but the absence of waviness doesn't mean that the stain HAS to be a minor one. I've got some very strange looking water stained books laying around here (Dennis The Menace welcoming Hawaii to the United States, anyone?). Regardless, that is too severe a defect in any shape or size to fall into a NM category, IMO. I want my NMs with VERY few spine stresses, no scuffing, minimal dings, etc. Basically, I want my NMs Near Minty.

[Bugaboo-migration]

Again, the Grading Guide classifies any book with a color breaking fold as being no better than Vf. Personally, I would be seriously pissed off if I was sold a stained or creased book as a NM. Either way it's changing the color of the book and certainly wouldn't be NM to me.

That's my point. We're not talking about a color breaking fold. And we don't know how severe this water mark is. Apparently, you can't see it from the exterior.....I think FF has made that clear. And, since we do know that CGC uses bright lighting and magnification to spot defects, we also don't know how visible it is on the interior. "You" would be pissed of off if you were sold this book, but that doesn't automatically mean everyone else would be (FF doesn't seem to be). If I could get a 9.4-9.6 looking book that was graded as a 9.0 and had, let's say, an almost imperceptible (again...we don't know) water mark on the interior cover that doesn't affect paper flatness or the exterior colors of the book, I'd jump all over it. You keep using the term NM........this book isn't graded NM......it's VF/NM.......which usually carries a MUCH lower price.

 

I agree that they grade very tightly on covers... the interiors are a biiiiig question mark though. Again, in my opinion, the interior of the book is just as important as the exterior... but then again, once it's in a plastic case, who can tell what the interior is like anyway, right?

It's a question, but one we don't know the answer to. You can't make a judgement call based on a couple of known obvious errors given the hundreds(?) of thousands of books they've graded.

 

That could be true (about FF buying the book already-graded)... but the absence of waviness doesn't mean that the stain HAS to be a minor one. I've got some very strange looking water stained books laying around here (Dennis The Menace welcoming Hawaii to the United States, anyone?). Regardless, that is too severe a defect in any shape or size to fall into a NM category, IMO. I want my NMs with VERY few spine stresses, no scuffing, minimal dings, etc. Basically, I want my NMs Near Minty.

I'm just saying that the stain could be minor. You appeared to be assuming it's a major one and I was just pointing out that you can't do that. And, everyone has their own opinions of what defects they will allow into a specific grade. That's where all the confusion and chaos has come from in the past. The odds of two people doing business together on eBay, who happen to put the exact same grading emphasis on each defect, is just too far fetched. CGC has made it way more comfortable for me to buy high grade books over the internet. Before them, it was a gamble......one in which the odds were far worse than 50/50. And, I'll emphasize again, this book was not graded a NM......it was graded a couple of notches below that and included a notation on the label.

[awe4one]

What's is classified as an Overstreet standard? That any type of water stain anywhere on the book lowers it to a VF? I think that CGC grades far tighter than most people and most dealers, so I don't personally have to know what their grading criteria is.

 

But then again CGC comes out with grading 9.2 and 9.4 to comics that are missing a staple. The fact that CGC doesn't reveal their grading standards is part of the problem here. And leads to a misconception maybe of inconsistancy in grading on their part by buyers (and us apparently). And other than FF, how will a buyer know how bad the water stain is? And what reference can they use other than Overstreet standards to determine what a comic with water stain should be graded? I would suspect that it would hamper any future sale.....

 

 

Jim

[Illiterati-migration]

You keep using the term NM........this book isn't graded NM......it's VF/NM.......which usually carries a MUCH lower price.

 

This is true, and considering that there is no 8.8, and I certainly can't say that book is an 8.5, I could concede that it is best suited when categorized as a Vf/NM. This, of course, comes with a caveat: this book is truly an enormous exception to a rule. The water stain on ANY other book (not one with so spectacular a black cover, etc.) WOULD drop it down to an 8.5 for me. It's a spectacular book and I would be interested to see the graders' notes on it (hint-hint).

 

And I wish I would have stumbled across it on Ebay or whereever it was found.

[Bugaboo-migration]

But then again CGC comes out with grading 9.2 and 9.4 to comics that are missing a staple. The fact that CGC doesn't reveal their grading standards is part of the problem here. And leads to a misconception maybe of inconsistancy in grading on their part by buyers (and us apparently). And other than FF, how will a buyer know how bad the water stain is? And what reference can they use other than Overstreet standards to determine what a comic with water stain should be graded? I would suspect that it would hamper any future sale.....

 

 

Jim

I can't think of one company that offers a perfect product or service.....not one. In my opinion, their service is accomplishing what it set out to do. Bring some stability to the crapshoot that is internet comic purchases (and help to eliminate the endless bickering over grading in face to face sales). Even in court, you're not promised a "perfect" trial, just a fair one. Is a trials outcome always correct? Do guilty people always get convicted and innocent people always get set free? No. CGC offers a service that, I imagine for the majority of graded comic collectors, has lived up to expectations. Realistically, I can't fault them for not releasing their grading standards. I don't know that I would either. If someone isn't happy with CGC's product or with their perceived grading standards, then those people can simply walk away from CGC graded books. On any given day, there are close to a hundred thousand comic books for sale on eBay......the vast majority of which are not CGC graded. A 9.4 graded comic with a staple missing is easy to see, even in a slab. It's hard for me to believe people would pay such high prices for these books that are obviously not being graded properly on a consistent basis. Also, what is Overstreets opinion in regards to a water stain?

[Bugaboo-migration]

This is true, and considering that there is no 8.8, and I certainly can't say that book is an 8.5, I could concede that it is best suited when categorized as a Vf/NM. This, of course, comes with a caveat: this book is truly an enormous exception to a rule. The water stain on ANY other book (not one with so spectacular a black cover, etc.) WOULD drop it down to an 8.5 for me. It's a spectacular book and I would be interested to see the graders' notes on it (hint-hint).

Make no mistakes about it, I don't agree with everything that CGC does either. I've seen some grades that leave me shaking my head as well. Nobody's ever going to agree with everything that any grading company does. But, for the most part, I think they offer stability where there was very little before it. That's all that we can really expect them to do. I still always request a large scan of CGC books if possible and try to buy the book instead of just the label. And, you're right, that black cover does make it look exceptionally nice. But, if the water stain was on another book, I'd think that a one notch discrepancy between what you would grade it and what cgc graded it is still fairly acceptable. And those are probably better than the odds you'd get if buying the book raw on eBay.......you know some hambone would have put it up for sale there as a raw NM+ or NM/MT.

 

Having said that, I agree, let's get the graders notes on that book, FF.

[fantastic_four]

Having said that, I agree, let's get the graders notes on that book, FF.

 

I'll do that, and I'll also bust open the slab. The label says it's "moderate" in size, and I've been wondering how big "moderate" is. Sorry I dropped out of the debate for a while, I'm having back problems that have kept me in a horizontal position for the last 36 hours or so.

 

Not sure what Khaos is seeing in the LLC, but I'll look back at the book when I get a chance and describe every single visible defect and possibly post more scans. The book also has a date penned on the back cover, although this is a defect that both Overstreet and CGC standards allow up into the 9.8 grade so I don't think that's a variable to consider here in trying to determine how much CGC downgrades for interior defects.

 

I did buy this book slabbed back in early 2001. That was before CGC reduced the types of defects they'd comment about on the label; I've used this book in previous threads about how CGC shouldn't have stopped including those comments on the labels. If I bought this book and that comment wasn't there, I'd be scratching my head as to how it graded so low; it really does look like a 9.6/9.8 from the exterior. I don't have the book in front of me, but I can't see ANY creasing defects in that scan, and I don't remember finding any on the exterior inconsistent with the 9.8 grade when I've looked at it in the past.

 

The only evidence I could see of the water stain actually is visible in the scan near the top edge. Look above the word "SENTINEL"; if your monitor isn't set to display colors too darkly, you should be able to see a slight discoloration that begins over the first letter "e" in "SENTINEL" and extends over to the letter "o" in "OF". I didn't notice this looking at the book in person, but I did notice it after I scanned it, and it is very lightly visible when viewing the book in person if you're looking for it.

[fantastic_four]

Well I busted that Silver Surfer 1 out of the slab. I must say that I was right about how stunning it is. The exterior looks just as much like a 9.6 out of the slab as it did in it; perfect centering, no surface indentations, no color breaks anywhere. I was wrong about where the water stain is; it was in the upper right corner under the comics code symbol. Look below to see what the person who wrote the label description meant by a "moderate" water stain:

 

 

There's a stain in the far corner that's about 1" by 1", and there's a smaller stain under that in the margin that's about 1" tall by 1/4" wide. Both are visible in the scan. On the right is the interior front at the scanner software's default brightness level, and on the left is a version of the picture darkened 75% by an image editor to make it easier to see the water stain. It's definitely a barely noticable blemish even in person.

[Illiterati-migration]

And how do you feel about this, FF?

[fantastic_four]

And how do you feel about this, FF?

 

I feel young, as when the world was new! Like Spring has sprung, and like flowers are blossoming all around me!

 

What I think is that they downgraded just right for it...I'd give it a 9.2 myself.

[Illiterati-migration]

And how do you feel about this, FF?

 

I feel young, as when the world was new! Like Spring has sprung, and like flowers are blossoming all around me!

 

What I think is that they downgraded just right for it...I'd give it a 9.2 myself.

 

Well! You'll certainly NEVER work for MY third party comic book grading company!